2010-08-17, 08:34 | Link #4501 |
Senior Member
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"dies/doesn't exist" works with Kinzo because Bern started by saying "Kinzo refers to the living Kinzo."
One other thing I was thinking about. In Episode 4, piece-Beatrice claims people died because of Battler's sin. In Episode 6, Kyrie refers to how Asumu's death was inevitable once Kyrie decided to kill her. The deaths of the people on the island became inevitable once the bomb was set. Conclusion: Battler's sin is related to the bomb, not the epitaph murders.
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2010-08-17, 14:28 | Link #4502 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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The problem with this is that, unlike the ShKanon theory, it does not explain how Kanon escaped from the sealed cousins' room. For this you need an additional theory and the only obvious possibility is that Kanon's real name matches the name of someone else. This allows him to evade Erika's "everyone else" clause and be outside of the cousins' room when she seals it. |
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2010-08-17, 16:21 | Link #4503 |
Golden Witch
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Then lets go back to Beatrice and Battler's red truth at the end of that duel, which for me indicts its Shkanon
Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!! I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!! ......Sorry, but... Even if you do join us- There are 17 people. Erika is the 18th human, as stated. However, Beatrice and Battler deny that by saying that even if the 18th person DOES join, there are still only 17 people. Meaning that Erika makes 17. Meaning that someone on the island isn't really there. To me, the only option is that one of the servants aren't really there. Hence, Shannon = Kanon
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2010-08-17, 16:31 | Link #4504 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Beatrice also said All people can only use their own names!!, implying that Kanon is more his name than a title? Still room for error there though. There have been many servants from the orphanage who have been given a name with the 'on' character, but no case has been presented where the same name would be given to two servants. Battler constructed this game from his insight to the truth, and his mystery also followed the Knox decalogue at least until Erika forced him to rewrite stuff in the guest room. That's why I think the hints given in this story, short as it was, are more reliable than in earlier episodes, and there can be no cheap deceptions like people with the same name. |
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2010-08-17, 17:20 | Link #4505 |
Big Confused Cheese Inc.
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Huh, so I actually got a bit attached to my theory that Sayo/Yoshiya, while being separate people, can each play the roles of both Kanon and Shannon, one at a time. Presume absurdly that the disguise is perfect, nobody notices it, since it is not usually used, being in itself an abnormal case. It's usually Sayo that plays the role of 'Shannon' and Yoshiya the one that plays 'Kanon'. (Note that when I use 'Kanon', 'Shannon' respectively I am referring to the roles/pseudonyms themselves which are not actually names.) That way, I hope to avoid the All people can only use their own names!! red. What I'm trying to say is that the words 'Kanon' and 'Shannon' imply two possibilities. For example,
Shannon refers to the person meant to play the role 'Shannon', meaning Sayo. 'Shannon' refers to the role itself, which can be played by both Sayo and Yoshiya. However, there is no distinction in the game between Shannon and 'Shannon'. When using the word Shannon, the red may refer to either. It's like having multiple Kinzos. Kinzo is alive. Yes, but which Kinzo? Certainly not Kinzo Ushiromiya. Going by Battler's wild 'Kinzo is a title' theory, a case in which the word Kinzo may refer to any of them is constructed. It's not fair, but it's a way of avoiding the red text. Like I said some time ago in the speculation thread, Ep 6 is a case in which both end up playing the role of 'Shannon'. The Shannon confirmed in Ep 6 in the first room is actually Yoshiya dressed as Shannon. (Again, presume it's a perfect disguise, nobody notices and so on.) To be consistent with the game of Ep 6 so far, the original person meant to play the role of 'Shannon', meaning Sayo, is actually portrayed as Kanon, using Kanon's sprite. But Sayo and Yoshiya cannot play the same role at the same time. That itself would be the logical error. People would definitely notice something odd with two Shannon's and no Kanon. No disguise could fool that. On the other hand, since it is never confirmed who actually is in the other room, the possibility of a second 'Shannon' person cannot be denied. Say this Shannon person gets out of the other room, changes clothes into Kanon in order to not create the contradiction, then goes to save Battler. Now, When Sayo (dressed as 'Kanon', represented by Kanon's sprite) enters the guest room, the role 'Kanon' actually does that. Therefore all the red truth confirming that. At the same time, Kanon (not 'Kanon', but the person originally meant to be playing the role of 'Kanon', meaning Yoshiya) doesn't. Leading to the red confirming that Kanon does not exist in the guest room. Now I'm trying to apply this to the final reds. I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!! There is no contradiction in this itself. Counting Erika, there are indeed 18 humans on Rokkenjima (Sayo and Yoshiya included). Even if you do join us- There are 17 people. Now I'm trying to look at it this way. Ep 6 presented a case in which, at the start of the game, both Sayo and Yoshiya ended up playing the same role, that of 'Shannon'. There is nobody represented as Kanon in this world. That would lead to 'Kanon doesn't exist', which actually gives an accurate representation of this current gameboard... if only I can work a bit on the timing of those reds, I guess. |
2010-08-17, 18:06 | Link #4506 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Sometimes I get tired of people claiming this. This is just not true. Even in episode 6 alternative theories for shkanon are hinted at on and off.There is actually equal foreshadowing for shkanon and it's alternatives. And BTW in the question arcs the foreshadowing for shkanon, and premises for people not existing, names, etc are very scarce. They pale in comparison to the amount of character descriptions and suspicious implications there are in the narration.
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You can take the "even if" as meaning "regardless" Or it doesn't matter if your here or not. So no it doesn't do that. Since the context of the red is not stated it can mean a number of things.
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2010-08-17, 18:35 | Link #4507 |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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The main reason I say it has more foreshadowing is the big riddle of episode 6, "Why can only either Kanon or Shannon succeed in love". The only sensible explanation to me is that they're one person. When Battler&Beato in the end say that there are 17 people, it felt like a confirmation to this.
As long as that's not said in red there can always be the suprise "circumstance X" that allows for another explanation. Also there can still be 18 people with wordplay... But since Battler was supposed to be revealing everything in this episode, is there any need to read between the lines like that? |
2010-08-17, 18:47 | Link #4508 | ||
Mystery buff
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Location: Gone Fishin!
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The author wouldn't directly say anything or half his fanbase would lynch him. So he's allowing it.
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2010-08-17, 19:12 | Link #4509 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Also I don't like the idea of Battler & Beato erasing one of their friends to ultimately save themselves or "to get even" with the antagonist. Both of them are better than that.
It also leaves it open for Erika to reappear later, which I'm completely against.
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2010-08-17, 21:22 | Link #4512 | |
Dribble.....SHOOTOH!
Join Date: Feb 2006
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2010-08-18, 01:23 | Link #4513 |
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 35
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I tossed together a scenario regarding Kanon's motive for heading over to the guest room some time ago... basically, the Shannon outfit was left in Battler's room. The assumption is that the shift between Shannon and Kanon is not entirely controllable, but rather compulsive. The idea is that Shkanon is more or less addicted to changing between the two, and the servants' timetable is manipulated by Genji to accomodate this, with Kumasawa helping out with some chores (as often speculated).
Kanon is compelled to retrieve the outfit, having not foreseen everyone being corraled into the two rooms. He possibly confesses his problem to the others, dissolving the illusion of Kanon as an individual (seen in a magic scene), and rushes off to retrieve the outfit, which is in the closet. He changes into it and becomes Shannon. I think it's more fair than "Shkanon is whichever one s/he wants to be at any particular time, and happened to kill the Kanon personality upon entering the closet." The former would be a cheap gimmick that is almost meaningless on the board, and the latter... why would that happen, just to evade some red text s/he shouldn't be aware of? |
2010-08-18, 03:24 | Link #4514 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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It does sound better at first glance, but there is a problem with it that all shkanon theories have that ruins your motive.
At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! Because of this I can conclude that Kanon did not exist in the next room over. That means that Shkanon was dressed as Shannon at the time, which means there is no reason to go to the guestroom for a Shannon outfit because the red requires that shkanon was wearing it when it left via the window. And it brings us back to the question of how many outfits is Shkanon frikkin hiding!? Ironically this same red presents a silly little red evasion trick for the everyone else red if you beleive that if Kanon is dead he doesn't exist. So with a harcore version of this theory, If someone were to be murdered in the next room over, for the sake of argument let's say it's "Jessica', the murder victim wouldn't "exist" in the next room over, but they also wouldn't be in the cousin's room because their corpse is in the next room over.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-08-18 at 03:38. |
2010-08-18, 06:17 | Link #4515 |
Golden Witch
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The problem with this theory is how Erika's red is a contradiction with the other red.
Its never mentioned which one it is, be it there are 18 "people" or 18 bodies. This also means there could be 17 "people" or 17 bodies. If we take Erika's to mean 18 "bodies" then its correct, and if we take Beatrice and Battler's red to mean 17 people, then the whole timing issue is solved. But then that leads to the whole closed room guesthouse situation- Erika couldn't figure out how Kanon left the guestroom, meaning he either was never there, or there's a way out which isnt through the seals. However, if Beatrice and Battler's red means 17 bodies, then ShKanon can't work out without a visable way to exit the closed rooms which are confirmed sealed
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2010-08-18, 06:31 | Link #4516 |
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True, Shkanon has to be hiding many outfits. I could construct a motive for him/her to rescue Battler though...
First, why did she leave next room over through the window? - Asked to go relieve Battler for the next step in their detective game - Asked to check up on the murdered people who are supposed to be playing dead but aren't answering their phones - Revealed her secret, got thrown out of the window by furious George - By her own will Next, why change to Kanon before rescuing Battler? - Her wig was blown off by the wind, so she looks like Kanon with the raincoat - Shannon outfit was otherwise ruined - Afraid of getting groped by Battler - Compulsive transformation disorder X - Had revealed her secret, so why not How to disappear from the closet? - Transformed back to Shannon to protect her secret - Died |
2010-08-18, 08:23 | Link #4518 | ||
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
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An alternate version is that she can "change" without the outfit, but it's still compulsive and doing so is mentally distressing because changing outfits is part of the addiction/compulsion. Shannon is observed in the room, but she's mentally Kanon at the time. He explains his secret and why he needs to go retrieve the Kanon outfit, but upon entering the guest room, discovers that Erika is in it before he can retrieve it successfully, and hides in the closet. In this case, it probably isn't in the closet. Could be in the bed or something, Erika isn't the detective anyway so it doesn't matter. Quote:
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2010-08-18, 09:13 | Link #4519 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia, Moscow
Age: 35
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Three bodies entered or left the room
Only Erika and Kanon entered the room Only Battler left the room Ep 4 hint: there are probably 2 Battlers Ep 6 hint: one name could refer to several people Two people left the room: Battler and Battler One person entered the room: Kanonerika. The trick with the shower was used to wash off the makeup from Erika to make her become 'Kanon'. Therefore, even if they welcome Erika, she's still just Kanon. Simply by using the same logic Shkannon-fans use, this level of reasoning is possible for Laplace's demon. What do you think, everyone? |
2010-08-18, 10:39 | Link #4520 |
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 35
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I've often said that due to the "three bodies" not being "up to three" any Ghosterika-type theory would require a duplicate of either Kanon or Battler (namewise). Any explanation like that is functional for those reds, but probably requires some kind of background on who the duplicate is; EP4's possible extra Battler is one.
That said, though, it's more likely that (due to all the personality talk in EP6) "Ushiromiya Battler" is effectively a persona invented by Asumu and forced on him via a lie he's been told all his life, one of the parameters for which is that Asumu is his mother. Kind of like how a Shkanon theory might assert that they're parameters of the personalities that Kanon is male and Shannon is female. While we're on the topic, I had a kind of crack theory that Battler moved in with his grandparents when he was 13, and Asumu's last name is Amakusa. |
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