American's military supremacy ignored in War animes

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by MechWarriorAelse

wat the...wow u have got to be stupid. 1) ME-262 were to fast to get shot meaning that 400-1 odds is like me(being an ME-262) stepping on 100 ants(allied bombers). 2) the ME-262s were much more manuvuerable than even the british Spitfire that they could weave between bomber formation without a scratch

Umm, first don't call me stupid, I know as much if not more about this than you. There's no need for a personal attack, which can get you banned by the way. If you disagree, try saying something other than "your stupid, and the me-262 pwns all".
why are you compairing it to a spitfire, a plane that by most analysis was on par with a bf-109? It was not the most manuerverable allied fighter of the war, and even if it was, it wouldn't matter as the me-262 would be far more likely to encounter p-38s, p-47s, and p-51s. Remember, the british bombed germany at night without fighter escorts. It was the americans who flew daylight bombing and who fly most of the fighter escort missions.

Second, you are overestimating greatly the capabilities of the me-262. It was only about 125 -150 mph faster than the top allied piston engine fighters like the p-51 in level flight. I forget the exact numbers, but it was something like 470 for a p-51d or 425 for a p-47 to about 590 for an me-262. Now while this is a huge advantage when the me-262 is trying to escape, it does not offer as much of an advantage in a dogfight. Remember, they were actually only traveling around 350-450 while actually engaged. in such combat. An me-262 could out climb and out run in level flight all allied fighters, including allied jets which were starting to see combat close to the end of the war. It could easily out turn a p-38 and p-47 as well, but it didn't have as much of an advantage on the p-51. But why would that matter anyway? The me-262s best advantage was speed, so engaging in a dog fight was the last thing an me-262 pilot would want to do. An me-262 would be more inclined to dive on bomber formations from height, exploiting another advantage in superior altitude. So what to do? Well 2 things could work, the american pilots could put their planes in a dive at first sighting of me-262s, which would enable them to get into firing position on the 262s as the passed by. Of course, in the end, only a few would meet their end this way, so something else would be needed. As I mentioned before, during takeoff and landing the me-262 was VERY vulnerable to allied fighters of all kinds. It didn't take allied pilots long to figure that out, and soon a good number would circle german airfields waiting for the me-262s, low on fuel and ammo, to slow down to landing speed. Then they would jump, giving the 262s no chance of escape. So while it would be very difficult to protect the bombers directly, by destroying the 262s after the fact, the allies could still prevent future loses.

third, the me-262s spent more time undergoing maintance than they did flying. Their engines had approximatly 10-15 hours of service before needing a complete overhaul which would take about twice as long. so for every hour a 262 spent in the air, it spent 2 hours in a hanger. As such, it was very difficult for germany to deploy more than 50 of these planes at once and even that was rare, which kind of sucks when you consider the allies could regularly deploy thousands of fighters at once.

You seem to think the me-262 was some sort of super weapon that nothing could touch. It may not have had an equal, but it still had vulnerablities that could be exploited by the allies. That would not change regardless of when it was put into service. While it was revolutionary, it was not enough to change the outcome of the war unless it could have been produced, and more importantly deployed, in much greater numbers than would have been possible even under ideal conditions. In the end tactics and sheer numbers will win out over technology alone. Even if it had been introduced a year earilier, it would still be too little much too late.

And even if, by some miracle, the germans had been able to hold off allied forces longer, just a few months later they would have been facing allied jets that would have further narrowed the performance gap, as well as the atomic bomb, which germany had no chance of developing, as they had all but given up research on it. In fact germany was selling nuclear material to japan since their own research had ground to a halt.

[MechWarriorAelse]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

Umm, first don't call me stupid, I know as much if not more about this than you. There's no need for a personal attack, which can get you banned by the way. If you disagree, try saying something other than "your stupid, and the me-262 pwns all".
why are you compairing it to a spitfire, a plane that by most analysis was on par with a bf-109? It was not the most manuerverable allied fighter of the war, and even if it was, it wouldn't matter as the me-262 would be far more likely to encounter p-38s, p-47s, and p-51s. Remember, the british bombed germany at night without fighter escorts. It was the americans who flew daylight bombing and who fly most of the fighter escort missions.

Second, you are overestimating greatly the capabilities of the me-262. It was only about 125 -150 mph faster than the top allied piston engine fighters like the p-51 in level flight. I forget the exact numbers, but it was something like 470 for a p-51d or 425 for a p-47 to about 590 for an me-262. Now while this is a huge advantage when the me-262 is trying to escape, it does not offer as much of an advantage in a dogfight. Remember, they were actually only traveling around 350-450 while actually engaged. in such combat. An me-262 could out climb and out run in level flight all allied fighters, including allied jets which were starting to see combat close to the end of the war. It could easily out turn a p-38 and p-47 as well, but it didn't have as much of an advantage on the p-51. But why would that matter anyway? The me-262s best advantage was speed, so engaging in a dog fight was the last thing an me-262 pilot would want to do. An me-262 would be more inclined to dive on bomber formations from height, exploiting another advantage in superior altitude. So what to do? Well 2 things could work, the american pilots could put their planes in a dive at first sighting of me-262s, which would enable them to get into firing position on the 262s as the passed by. Of course, in the end, only a few would meet their end this way, so something else would be needed. As I mentioned before, during takeoff and landing the me-262 was VERY vulnerable to allied fighters of all kinds. It didn't take allied pilots long to figure that out, and soon a good number would circle german airfields waiting for the me-262s, low on fuel and ammo, to slow down to landing speed. Then they would jump, giving the 262s no chance of escape. So while it would be very difficult to protect the bombers directly, by destroying the 262s after the fact, the allies could still prevent future loses.

third, the me-262s spent more time undergoing maintance than they did flying. Their engines had approximatly 10-15 hours of service before needing a complete overhaul which would take about twice as long. so for every hour a 262 spent in the air, it spent 2 hours in a hanger. As such, it was very difficult for germany to deploy more than 50 of these planes at once and even that was rare, which kind of sucks when you consider the allies could regularly deploy thousands of fighters at once.

You seem to think the me-262 was some sort of super weapon that nothing could touch. It may not have had an equal, but it still had vulnerablities that could be exploited by the allies. That would not change regardless of when it was put into service. While it was revolutionary, it was not enough to change the outcome of the war unless it could have been produced, and more importantly deployed, in much greater numbers than would have been possible even under ideal conditions. In the end tactics and sheer numbers will win out over technology alone. Even if it had been introduced a year earilier, it would still be too little much too late.

And even if, by some miracle, the germans had been able to hold off allied forces longer, just a few months later they would have been facing allied jets that would have further narrowed the performance gap, as well as the atomic bomb, which germany had no chance of developing, as they had all but given up research on it.

u kno more than me about the military????? yea.......right. the spitfire was the most manuvuerable plane in service until the mustang came. and for the fact of the ME-262 dive fighting, by the time they were spotted 10 bombers would be lost and they would already be miles off. ME-262s were deployed a squadron at a time, more than enough to destroy a bomber fleet. and the ME-262 was a sort of 'super' weapon its only weakness was that Hitler ordered it to be used as a fighter-bomber instead of using its strenghts and using it strictly as a fighter. the allies were no where near using jet fighters. they only acquired them 5 years after the war. and as for sheer numbers winning a war that's bull, if that was true wars would have turned out totally different.

[MechWarriorAelse]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

Umm, first don't call me stupid, I know as much if not more about this than you. There's no need for a personal attack, which can get you banned by the way. If you disagree, try saying something other than "your stupid, and the me-262 pwns all".
why are you compairing it to a spitfire, a plane that by most analysis was on par with a bf-109? It was not the most manuerverable allied fighter of the war, and even if it was, it wouldn't matter as the me-262 would be far more likely to encounter p-38s, p-47s, and p-51s. Remember, the british bombed germany at night without fighter escorts. It was the americans who flew daylight bombing and who fly most of the fighter escort missions.

Second, you are overestimating greatly the capabilities of the me-262. It was only about 125 -150 mph faster than the top allied piston engine fighters like the p-51 in level flight. I forget the exact numbers, but it was something like 470 for a p-51d or 425 for a p-47 to about 590 for an me-262. Now while this is a huge advantage when the me-262 is trying to escape, it does not offer as much of an advantage in a dogfight. Remember, they were actually only traveling around 350-450 while actually engaged. in such combat. An me-262 could out climb and out run in level flight all allied fighters, including allied jets which were starting to see combat close to the end of the war. It could easily out turn a p-38 and p-47 as well, but it didn't have as much of an advantage on the p-51. But why would that matter anyway? The me-262s best advantage was speed, so engaging in a dog fight was the last thing an me-262 pilot would want to do. An me-262 would be more inclined to dive on bomber formations from height, exploiting another advantage in superior altitude. So what to do? Well 2 things could work, the american pilots could put their planes in a dive at first sighting of me-262s, which would enable them to get into firing position on the 262s as the passed by. Of course, in the end, only a few would meet their end this way, so something else would be needed. As I mentioned before, during takeoff and landing the me-262 was VERY vulnerable to allied fighters of all kinds. It didn't take allied pilots long to figure that out, and soon a good number would circle german airfields waiting for the me-262s, low on fuel and ammo, to slow down to landing speed. Then they would jump, giving the 262s no chance of escape. So while it would be very difficult to protect the bombers directly, by destroying the 262s after the fact, the allies could still prevent future loses.

third, the me-262s spent more time undergoing maintance than they did flying. Their engines had approximatly 10-15 hours of service before needing a complete overhaul which would take about twice as long. so for every hour a 262 spent in the air, it spent 2 hours in a hanger. As such, it was very difficult for germany to deploy more than 50 of these planes at once and even that was rare, which kind of sucks when you consider the allies could regularly deploy thousands of fighters at once.

You seem to think the me-262 was some sort of super weapon that nothing could touch. It may not have had an equal, but it still had vulnerablities that could be exploited by the allies. That would not change regardless of when it was put into service. While it was revolutionary, it was not enough to change the outcome of the war unless it could have been produced, and more importantly deployed, in much greater numbers than would have been possible even under ideal conditions. In the end tactics and sheer numbers will win out over technology alone. Even if it had been introduced a year earilier, it would still be too little much too late.

And even if, by some miracle, the germans had been able to hold off allied forces longer, just a few months later they would have been facing allied jets that would have further narrowed the performance gap, as well as the atomic bomb, which germany had no chance of developing, as they had all but given up research on it.

u kno more than me about the military????? yea.......right. the spitfire was the most manuvuerable plane in service until the mustang came. and for the fact of the ME-262 dive fighting, by the time they were spotted 10 bombers would be lost and they would already be miles off. ME-262s were deployed a squadron at a time, more than enough to destroy a bomber fleet. and the ME-262 was a sort of 'super' weapon its only weakness was that Hitler ordered it to be used as a fighter-bomber instead of using its strenghts and using it strictly as a fighter. the allies were no where near using jet fighters. they only acquired them 5 years after the war. and as for sheer numbers winning a war that's bull, if that was true wars would have turned out totally different.

[srb]

Aelse, the De Havilland Vampire flew for the first time in September 1943 and the first production type was deployed in April 1945. With comments like that you really don't show that you know a lot about military history.

[Enron]

Originally Posted by MechWarriorAelse

u kno more than me about the military????? yea.......right. the spitfire was the most manuvuerable plane in service until the mustang came. and for the fact of the ME-262 dive fighting, by the time they were spotted 10 bombers would be lost and they would already be miles off. ME-262s were deployed a squadron at a time, more than enough to destroy a bomber fleet. and the ME-262 was a sort of 'super' weapon its only weakness was that Hitler ordered it to be used as a fighter-bomber instead of using its strenghts and using it strictly as a fighter. the allies were no where near using jet fighters. they only acquired them 5 years after the war. and as for sheer numbers winning a war that's bull, if that was true wars would have turned out totally different.

Right, the 262 did deal out ownage on Bomber formations.......if they could get off the ground. There were so many problems with the 262's engines. Also, the 262s if i recall had 3 or 4 nose mounted 20mm cannons....meaning that they couldnt hold much ammo. Also, manuverability wasn't so great. The 262 was fast, but that's about it.

Not so sure about the "sheer numbers" winning wars was bull. The Germans spent all thier effort in developing technologically superior tanks, planes, etc. but were unable to produce a high number of units at that level of tech. (compared to the US churning out wave after wave of the cheaper Sherman and the soviets with the T-34). Numbers certainly gave us the edge there.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by srb

Aelse, the De Havilland Vampire flew for the first time in September 1943 and the first production type was deployed in April 1945. With comments like that you really don't show that you know a lot about military history.

are you sure you mean the vampire and not the meteor? I thought the vampire was a second generation jet, though I could be wrong about that and they could have both been in service. Not to mention the american p-59 which also first flew in 43. However, it completely sucked, so it never saw combat, but it was intended to be more of a learning experience for american engineers than a combat aircraft. Actually it wasn't even as fast as an average piston engine fighter, which is kind of pathetic. It may have made a decent ground attack aircraft though. However, there was the p-80, which while it didn't actually come into service until after the war (late 46 i think, but i'm not really sure), could have probably been rushed had the allies encountered major problems with german jets. A more immediate solution, however, would have been the piston powered bearcat, which could reach speeds of well over 500 mph. Once again there was really no need for it, so it wasn't given top priority as the war was drawing to a close, and it passed into history largely unknown.

Originally Posted by MechWarriorAelse

u kno more than me about the military????? yea.......right. the spitfire was the most manuvuerable plane in service until the mustang came. and for the fact of the ME-262 dive fighting, by the time they were spotted 10 bombers would be lost and they would already be miles off. ME-262s were deployed a squadron at a time, more than enough to destroy a bomber fleet. and the ME-262 was a sort of 'super' weapon its only weakness was that Hitler ordered it to be used as a fighter-bomber instead of using its strenghts and using it strictly as a fighter. the allies were no where near using jet fighters. they only acquired them 5 years after the war. and as for sheer numbers winning a war that's bull, if that was true wars would have turned out totally different.

I think the rest of your post disproves your first statement.
A. The british actually had jets in service before germany.
B. the me-262 had lots of weaknesses, many of which have been pointed out.
C. I never said sheer numbers win a war, I said sheer numbers and tactics beat technology alone. There is a huge difference in those statements.
other than that I'm done arguing with you. You seem to think the me-262 was a gift from the gods, invincible in combat. You discount the facts that don't support your belief. Have you ever considered that you could be wrong?

[u&t]

Whoah. Luftwhiners on animesuki. These forums are quite amazingly ot sometimes...

And what about the Bearcat? Ok, while largely unknown as a WWII aircraft it still holds the record as the fastest piston engine aircraft to date. Thats just well, very cool...

[Sakaki]

Originally Posted by u&t

Whoah. Luftwhiners on animesuki. These forums are quite amazingly ot sometimes...

And what about the Bearcat? Ok, while largely unknown as a WWII aircraft it still holds the record as the fastest piston engine aircraft to date. Thats just well, very cool...

That would be "Rare Bare", that's quite the plane, it set the speed record in 1989 at 528.3 mph and still holds it.
Also they have been raceing it at Reno for 35 years now.

http://www.rarebear.com/

[u&t]

Originally Posted by Sakaki

That would be "Rare Bare", that's quite the plane, it set the speed record in 1989 at 528.3 mph and still holds it.
Also they have been raceing it at Reno for 35 years now.

http://www.rarebear.com/

Oh, thanks. That was a nice link. 4000 hp, 2900 rpm engine. I can not even imagine the noise that thing makes. I guess it's LOTS of it though...

[SaMa]

dont get it why they dont acknowledge america's military power in war animes like gundam I though america was damn powerful and that everone acknowledged its strengh so why not in anime as well?

Man.. i mean.. it may be because anime are animated shows that dosen't portray the real world,

[Desparado]

if i remember correctly in gassaraki when the jssdf unit the anime was about got deployed to usbecistan the us forces were in charge of the task force. i just feelt the need to mention that. in some anime were it is relevent are millitary power is accnoledged. what you need to understand is that even thow anime is sold in the us it is still made in japan. this meens that most anime war or otherwise take place and focus on japan. there have been a few, such as hellsing and gunslinger girl, that didnt take place in japan but most do. therefore when you wach a war anime its porbably about the jsdf or now the there millitary.

its the same in the us. in most of are war movies we focus on the us millitary. only on rare ocations wil a movie be about another countrys millitary allthow as before there have been some, enemy at the gates is but one example. the last samari dosent count since allthow it was about the japanies army the main carricter was a memeber of the us army.

[amaius]

Originally Posted by Desparado

if i remember correctly in gassaraki when the jssdf unit the anime was about got deployed to usbecistan the us forces were in charge of the task force. i just feelt the need to mention that. in some anime were it is relevent are millitary power is accnoledged. what you need to understand is that even thow anime is sold in the us it is still made in japan. this meens that most anime war or otherwise take place and focus on japan. there have been a few, such as hellsing and gunslinger girl, that didnt take place in japan but most do. therefore when you wach a war anime its porbably about the jsdf or now the there millitary.

its the same in the us. in most of are war movies we focus on the us millitary. only on rare ocations wil a movie be about another countrys millitary allthow as before there have been some, enemy at the gates is but one example. the last samari dosent count since allthow it was about the japanies army the main carricter was a memeber of the us army.

same here Bro! not just gasaraki,but also in ghost in the shell where in the last season episode shows the u.s navy's nukesub and in the manga PRIEST ( if the manga counts ) shows u.s marines and also in Black Jack where u.s special forces come to kill well black jack ( ummmm... right there dont mind of the federal units is acually the USA in the show black jack :P ) some other anime that i forgot i'll tell you when i know the name al'ight

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by amaius

same here Bro! not just gasaraki,but also in ghost in the shell where in the last season episode shows the u.s navy's nukesub and in the manga PRIEST ( if the manga counts ) shows u.s marines and also in Black Jack where u.s special forces come to kill well black jack ( ummmm... right there dont mind of the federal units is acually the USA in the show black jack :P ) some other anime that i forgot i'll tell you when i know the name al'ight

You realize that you're jumping into a discussion that is over 5 years old that you have revived from the dead?

(and it was a pretty silly thread to begin with) Desparado hasn't posted here since 2004.

[amaius]

Originally Posted by Vexx

You realize that you're jumping into a discussion that is over 5 years old that you have revived from the dead?

(and it was a pretty silly thread to begin with) Desparado hasn't posted here since 2004.

oh s*** ! that so embarrassing, well who gonna care anyway

[Vexx]

There's no rule against necromancy (like some forums). Its better for information and similar topics to stay in the appropriate thread.

Casual banter conversational threads like this one just look a little odd (e.g. I talk with dead people)

[MitsubishiZero]

Why do the anime world need to publicize how the US is strong in military power anyway. If American haven't stolen those German scientists after WWII you would still be using piston engines for planes.....

[Ithekro]

Not really since everyone seemed to be working on the same technology at around the same time.

I suggest this topic get dropped quickly. It can only result in flaming.

[klare]

my reply to the original question: i notice this in some stories that happen in the future too, it may be those anime writers think/predict/hope in the future, America will fall as a super military power

and i dont mind about anything like this as long as the story is good and make sense

[Zu Ra]

Anime'e universes are predominantly of Japanese origin . At least in co-relation with Military/Mecha Animes which are not historical . The most accuracy anime was FMP which had a world point of view .

[Vexx]

The TITLE of this thread makes my head hurt. It is about like saying "Why don't discussions of particle physics have sections on "Murican War Stuff"!!!

Um... because its totally irrelevant to the story, the culture, etc?

I don't suppose we could close and rebury this thing?