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Old 2008-11-04, 07:21   Link #4401
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
The reason why I thought she was immortal, or could be, was that the Cradle was gene-coded to the Kaiser, so if it were old, then wouldn't the Kaisers be the same?
It was gene-coded to the Royal Bloodline, not one person and one person alone.

I'm sure you'll be able to dig up 5000 ways of telling me how such encoding is impossible because genetic codes are unique for each person and so on and so on, but really, after they cloned Vivio from a few splotches of centuries old dried up blood on a cloth, I think we can safely say that Nanoha doesn't follow genetics.

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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Plus it made room for a lot of emo content, and formed the bridge between Saga's actions, and my very long story.

Alright, changing it such that she's the common Sankt Kaiser program, but her vessels change over time. Like a secondary AI of sorts that goes right into your brain.
Here's an idea: Why not have her be the Cradles Defense Program? Canon states that should the Kaiser falter, it downloads a defensive program in the Kaiser. Why not have Saber be that program? Not only would it explain her Saber-esque battle additive and give the 'feeling human' part an extra push, it would also explain why Vivio was still herself during the time she was taken over by the Cradle, the Defense Program was still functioning automatically, but it's AI, Saber, was gone.

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I said, no flying, just a Barbie doll that walks, talks and makes a nuisance of herself.

And yes there will be doubts cast, but it's a source of lulz.
Okay, that could work. As long as she doesn't do anything too outlandish it could work.
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Old 2008-11-04, 07:24   Link #4402
Sheba
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
It was gene-coded to the Royal Bloodline, not one person and one person alone.

I'm sure you'll be able to dig up 5000 ways of telling me how such encoding is impossible because genetic codes are unique for each person and so on and so on, but really, after they cloned Vivio from a few splotches of centuries old dried up blood on a cloth, I think we can safely say that Nanoha doesn't follow genetics.



.
A worse offender in two words:

Jurassic Park.
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Old 2008-11-04, 08:15   Link #4403
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Oh yes, 65 million year old blood in a mosquito that would have been little more then a dried up husk. I almost forgot that one.

I still love it though.
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Old 2008-11-04, 08:17   Link #4404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Oh yes, 65 million year old blood in a mosquito that would have been little more then a dried up husk. I almost forgot that one.

I still love it though.
ditto... Jurassic Park ^^
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Old 2008-11-04, 09:27   Link #4405
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
It was gene-coded to the Royal Bloodline, not one person and one person alone.

I'm sure you'll be able to dig up 5000 ways of telling me how such encoding is impossible because genetic codes are unique for each person and so on and so on, but really, after they cloned Vivio from a few splotches of centuries old dried up blood on a cloth, I think we can safely say that Nanoha doesn't follow genetics.
Oh yeah my bad. ^^;;;

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Here's an idea: Why not have her be the Cradles Defense Program? Canon states that should the Kaiser falter, it downloads a defensive program in the Kaiser. Why not have Saber be that program? Not only would it explain her Saber-esque battle additive and give the 'feeling human' part an extra push, it would also explain why Vivio was still herself during the time she was taken over by the Cradle, the Defense Program was still functioning automatically, but it's AI, Saber, was gone.
Won't exactly work that well... But its a valid idea. I'll take note, since I'm gonna need to redo quite a large part of her profile given my mistakes.
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Old 2008-11-04, 10:34   Link #4406
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I'm sure you'll be able to dig up 5000 ways of telling me how such encoding is impossible because genetic codes are unique for each person and so on and so on,
Actually, given what we know of genetics, it's quite possible. While DNA is unique to each person, the descendants of any particular human will share common markers in their DNA. Such DNA profiling can reach much further back than just parents. It's how scientists retraced the migration of humans across the Earth in our pre-history.
So I never had problems with the Cradle being able to identify Vivio as a member of the royal bloodline. That's actually within our ability now.
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Old 2008-11-04, 10:55   Link #4407
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Oh yeah mitochondrial DNA genecoding might work, but it would favor females as it is only passed down by mothers...

...wait that's IT! If that is so, all Kaisers have to be female!!!
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Old 2008-11-04, 11:02   Link #4408
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
It was gene-coded to the Royal Bloodline, not one person and one person alone.

I'm sure you'll be able to dig up 5000 ways of telling me how such encoding is impossible because genetic codes are unique for each person and so on and so on, but really, after they cloned Vivio from a few splotches of centuries old dried up blood on a cloth, I think we can safely say that Nanoha doesn't follow genetics.
It is genetics, all right, only that it doesn't realistically follow mainstream science. While I'm able to suspend disbelief on this bit on Vivio, I sometimes do have to wonder if they aren't able to produce something more realistic with just a little extra effort on changing a small bit of the plot. It'd have solved so many other questions and leave a more satisfying answer instead of us grappling in the dark on how that is possible. Anyway, that's what I think.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Oh yes, 65 million year old blood in a mosquito that would have been little more then a dried up husk. I almost forgot that one.

I still love it though.
You notice that the difference between what's shown in Nanoha and Jurassic Park is that the mosquitoes are trapped in amber, while the Holy Shroud is basically exposed to open-air. While realistically still quite impossible to recreate entire dinosaurs out of the blood in those mosquitoes, the degree of realism is far better than what's shown in Nanohaverse. In fact, if the Holy Shroud has been said to be preserved in any way, it'd have been a no-brainer on the issue.
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Old 2008-11-04, 11:05   Link #4409
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Not all Kaiser have to be female. For one, we don't have a proof that it is a matriarcal monarchy. By the way, do the sound stage hint that the kaiser lineage was one uninterrupted bloodline? Or do several noble houses take over the throne at several occasions?
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Old 2008-11-04, 11:41   Link #4410
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Actually, given what we know of genetics, it's quite possible. While DNA is unique to each person, the descendants of any particular human will share common markers in their DNA. Such DNA profiling can reach much further back than just parents. It's how scientists retraced the migration of humans across the Earth in our pre-history.
So I never had problems with the Cradle being able to identify Vivio as a member of the royal bloodline. That's actually within our ability now.
Ah, that's good to know.

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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Oh yeah mitochondrial DNA genecoding might work, but it would favor females as it is only passed down by mothers...

...wait that's IT! If that is so, all Kaisers have to be female!!!
Nanoha's 'no males in big roles' attitude does little to dissuade this, but lets not jump to conclusions.
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Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare View Post
It is genetics, all right, only that it doesn't realistically follow mainstream science. While I'm able to suspend disbelief on this bit on Vivio, I sometimes do have to wonder if they aren't able to produce something more realistic with just a little extra effort on changing a small bit of the plot. It'd have solved so many other questions and leave a more satisfying answer instead of us grappling in the dark on how that is possible. Anyway, that's what I think.
Running from experience, too much technobable is not advisable. It's boring and not really needed for the plot. Does the audience need to know how exactly Vivio was cloned from a splot of blood and how she is genetically linked to the Cradle? The answer really is no. While some of us may be eager for the details, the greater amount of fans only need to know she's been cloned from blood and she's a genetic key to the Cradle.

Out of curiosity, just what would you have changed to make it more realistic? My lack of experience on the subject may cause me to overlook small things that can be changed.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare View Post
You notice that the difference between what's shown in Nanoha and Jurassic Park is that the mosquitoes are trapped in amber, while the Holy Shroud is basically exposed to open-air. While realistically still quite impossible to recreate entire dinosaurs out of the blood in those mosquitoes, the degree of realism is far better than what's shown in Nanohaverse. In fact, if the Holy Shroud has been said to be preserved in any way, it'd have been a no-brainer on the issue.
Last I checked bloodcells didn't really live for 65 million years, not to mention merely being encased in amber is quite a poor stasis method... but this really has little to do with eachother, I mean, we can just as easily claim that genetics in Nanoha are much more advanced then in Jurasic Park, allowing for the recovery of the degenerated data. *shrug* It's a moot point, really.

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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Not all Kaiser have to be female. For one, we don't have a proof that it is a matriarcal monarchy. By the way, do the sound stage hint that the kaiser lineage was one uninterrupted bloodline? Or do several noble houses take over the throne at several occasions?
The SSX data heavily leans towards an uninterrupted bloodline.
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Old 2008-11-04, 12:34   Link #4411
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Inbreeding may be likely.It could explain how they preserved this small part of their genome that can connect to the Cradle.

(not to mention that it was a common practice in nobility to preserve the 'purity' of the bloodlines in History)

Another take would be marriage with vassal noble houses, and a kaiser is chosen so long he or she can connect to the Cradle.
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Old 2008-11-04, 13:12   Link #4412
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Running from experience, too much technobable is not advisable. It's boring and not really needed for the plot. Does the audience need to know how exactly Vivio was cloned from a splot of blood and how she is genetically linked to the Cradle? The answer really is no. While some of us may be eager for the details, the greater amount of fans only need to know she's been cloned from blood and she's a genetic key to the Cradle.

Out of curiosity, just what would you have changed to make it more realistic? My lack of experience on the subject may cause me to overlook small things that can be changed.
Nah, it doesn't even involve much technobabble. By just mentioning that the Shroud/blood is preserved in some way (vague generalization or specific mention -- scientific or magical -- works either way), it would have been easier to digest. It just takes a few extra lines of Jail's words to do that, nothing too much. The scene wouldn't even need to be animated. Would you believe a piece of bloodstained cloth exposed to the air and sunlight for 300 years or a small drop of 300-year frozen blood (both are, realistically, unusable materials) as being the likelier candidate for a successful cloning? I am rather sure that even non-science majors can understand the use of refrigeration to keep things unspoilt, so the choice should be rather obvious.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Last I checked bloodcells didn't really live for 65 million years, not to mention merely being encased in amber is quite a poor stasis method... but this really has little to do with eachother, I mean, we can just as easily claim that genetics in Nanoha are much more advanced then in Jurasic Park, allowing for the recovery of the degenerated data. *shrug* It's a moot point, really.
Yep, the cells don't live that long, and yes, amber crystallization isn't as good as, say, cryopreservation. The point isn't whether the method is feasibly realistic, it's about them making effort to at least reduce our need to suspend disbelief (give or take a few magnitudes). Scientists can scoff at the impossibility of such a notion, but the public understands that "Oh, the blood is preserved, so it's usable".

It's true that we can easily claim Nanohaverse technology as being far superior than anything we've discovered, but it's a huge suspension of disbelief on our part. Some may not go that far before their limit breaks. It wouldn't hurt to reduce what you can reduce to make it easier to believe. Then again, after watching Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, and the likes, whose limit is that small, isn't it? :P
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Old 2008-11-04, 13:29   Link #4413
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Then you also have those 'miracle' cases like Saint Januarius who's blood (preserved in a vial) liquefies during certain times of the year
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Old 2008-11-04, 14:53   Link #4414
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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Oh yeah mitochondrial DNA genecoding might work, but it would favor females as it is only passed down by mothers...
That was when the mitochondrial DNA was first discovered. The geneticists have improved since then, there's an equivalent for males. I think it was in the Y-chromosome or something. There was a documentary a few years back where they traced our genetic "Adam" the way the mitochondrial "Eve" had already been traced.
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Old 2008-11-04, 16:58   Link #4415
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Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare View Post
It's true that we can easily claim Nanohaverse technology as being far superior than anything we've discovered, but it's a huge suspension of disbelief on our part. Some may not go that far before their limit breaks. It wouldn't hurt to reduce what you can reduce to make it easier to believe. Then again, after watching Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, and the likes, whose limit is that small, isn't it? :P
*Tk snickers as he recalls Jack O'Neil's sixteen year old alien clone.*

Really just on Stargate alone you could fill a small book with their scientifically insane ideas:
-Radiation that makes people invisible… (radiation isn’t bad it gives you superpowers!)
-Being "Out of phase" with the universe and normal matter... but not falling through the planet for some reason. (In fact when people disappeared later on they acutally check to see if this has happened!!!)
-Inter-Universal travel in a half dozen ways...
-You can cure being turned into a caveman with allergy medication!
-Using more of your brain gives you awesome psychic powers!
-A random alien device rammed into your face can transfer the entire knowledge of a dead race into your brain and make you super smart! (At least until your brain overheats and melts)
-Being dead is only a minor set back as long as you're sufficiently advanced... or the powers that be happen you like you.
-Etc, etc

So yeah even allot of science fiction is nearly as soft on the entire "science" bit as Nanoha, which by the way is why I still call in sci-fi despite the odd elements.
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Old 2008-11-04, 19:09   Link #4416
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Inbreeding may be likely.It could explain how they preserved this small part of their genome that can connect to the Cradle.

(not to mention that it was a common practice in nobility to preserve the 'purity' of the bloodlines in History)

Another take would be marriage with vassal noble houses, and a kaiser is chosen so long he or she can connect to the Cradle.
There has been great emphasis on the Royal Bloodline and their genetical altering of their own. It's not impossible to think of marriage with vassal noble houses, as after having their child undergo genetic modification that child would have been of the bloodline capable of activating the Cradle anyway.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare View Post
Nah, it doesn't even involve much technobabble. By just mentioning that the Shroud/blood is preserved in some way (vague generalization or specific mention -- scientific or magical -- works either way), it would have been easier to digest. It just takes a few extra lines of Jail's words to do that, nothing too much. The scene wouldn't even need to be animated. Would you believe a piece of bloodstained cloth exposed to the air and sunlight for 300 years or a small drop of 300-year frozen blood (both are, realistically, unusable materials) as being the likelier candidate for a successful cloning? I am rather sure that even non-science majors can understand the use of refrigeration to keep things unspoilt, so the choice should be rather obvious.
Hmm, the only reference to such a preservation method I can think of is the shroud being kept safe and away from prying eyes, encased in what -to me- looks like a magic field of sorts.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare View Post
Yep, the cells don't live that long, and yes, amber crystallization isn't as good as, say, cryopreservation. The point isn't whether the method is feasibly realistic, it's about them making effort to at least reduce our need to suspend disbelief (give or take a few magnitudes). Scientists can scoff at the impossibility of such a notion, but the public understands that "Oh, the blood is preserved, so it's usable".
Actually, the audience will just go 'oh, they used blood to clone'

Given a choice, the audience will go for the preserved option first, but if preserved isn't mentioned 'it's blood, so it's good for cloning' works just as well.

It doesn't really apply here, considering this is really a minor thing, but there has always been an unwritten rule in my class when doing animation or video projects. Don't make your story to technical. The general audience doesn't care, and it'll just give the nitpickers more to nitpick. Point in case, episode 23, around the 09:40 mark, where we see the grunts holding of the gadget drones. One of the purposes of this scene was to show that the TSAB is more then just the heroes, and that even the grunts are capable of holding their own. Basically, it was meant to show that when properly organized, the TSAB is capable of proper military action. The general reaction of the audience was 'oh, okay' and at most 'woo, so that's a grunts fight' or something along those lines.

The military freaks among us tore into the situation like any other situation which involves military stuff, and ripped it apart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare View Post
It's true that we can easily claim Nanohaverse technology as being far superior than anything we've discovered, but it's a huge suspension of disbelief on our part. Some may not go that far before their limit breaks. It wouldn't hurt to reduce what you can reduce to make it easier to believe. Then again, after watching Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate, and the likes, whose limit is that small, isn't it? :P
It's ironic, the people who can point out the flaws in such things usually have the biggest SoD armor there is.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
*Tk snickers as he recalls Jack O'Neil's sixteen year old alien clone.*

Really just on Stargate alone you could fill a small book with their scientifically insane ideas:
-Radiation that makes people invisible… (radiation isn’t bad it gives you superpowers!)
-Being "Out of phase" with the universe and normal matter... but not falling through the planet for some reason. (In fact when people disappeared later on they acutally check to see if this has happened!!!)
-Inter-Universal travel in a half dozen ways...
-You can cure being turned into a caveman with allergy medication!
-Using more of your brain gives you awesome psychic powers!
-A random alien device rammed into your face can transfer the entire knowledge of a dead race into your brain and make you super smart! (At least until your brain overheats and melts)
-Being dead is only a minor set back as long as you're sufficiently advanced... or the powers that be happen you like you.
-Etc, etc

So yeah even allot of science fiction is nearly as soft on the entire "science" bit as Nanoha, which by the way is why I still call in sci-fi despite the odd elements.
Funny things happen when you combine the word 'science' with 'fiction' after all. Two polar opposites, used in the same sentence. It's like disaster waiting to happen.
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Old 2008-11-05, 05:58   Link #4417
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Spoiler for The Journeyers - Chapter 1:
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Spoiler for The Journeyers - Chapter 2:
Right, meant to read this earlier, but better late than never.
I had high expections for this, judging from what you've told me on IRC. I'm glad to say I wasn't disappointed in any way.

First off, Chapter 1 was a nice introduction of the characters, factions and the universe itself. I could easily get a mental image of the politics and general status of the worlds and there was no problem following it. The plot is interesting and I think you managed to come up with reasons to why things are unfolding as they are.
As I'm bad at characterization myself, I can't realy utter an opinion, other than that I think you got them right. They don't diverge from the norm so to speak and the OC's are really interesting. You have managed to give them life, and a personality, providing an interest in learning about them more.

Chapter 2, as the sci-fi junkie I am, is my favorite. The battle is deliciously described and I cannot really ask for a better way to write it. I also think you have managed to find a middle-ground between hard sci-fi and soft sci-fi as the story has its share of minor techbabble, while being easily understandable.
The battle itself is interesting in terms of tactics and how it turns out. I wasn't expecting a few things, I can say that.
I must say the supernova part was also very thrilling. I got many flashbacks to other series there.

As for negative aspects, both Chaper 1 & 2 had some minor spelling/grammar mistakes, but it didn't interrupt the flow that much. True, for the sheer size, it isn't unexpected.
Can't find anything more negative really.

As a last note, I must say you excel in world-building. This really shows in how you portrait the different planets, factions etc. The sheer research into gravity wells, orbits, acceleration etc, really builds up the universe and provide a good picture of how it might work and how the universe itself looks like.

Looking forward to Chapter 3 of this epic story.
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Old 2008-11-05, 11:04   Link #4418
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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
*Tk snickers as he recalls Jack O'Neil's sixteen year old alien clone.*

Really just on Stargate alone you could fill a small book with their scientifically insane ideas:
-Radiation that makes people invisible… (radiation isn’t bad it gives you superpowers!)
-Being "Out of phase" with the universe and normal matter... but not falling through the planet for some reason. (In fact when people disappeared later on they acutally check to see if this has happened!!!)
-Inter-Universal travel in a half dozen ways...
-You can cure being turned into a caveman with allergy medication!
-Using more of your brain gives you awesome psychic powers!
-A random alien device rammed into your face can transfer the entire knowledge of a dead race into your brain and make you super smart! (At least until your brain overheats and melts)
-Being dead is only a minor set back as long as you're sufficiently advanced... or the powers that be happen you like you.
-Etc, etc

So yeah even allot of science fiction is nearly as soft on the entire "science" bit as Nanoha, which by the way is why I still call in sci-fi despite the odd elements.
Oh, this list makes my day!

I especially like the part about using my brains giving me awesome psychic powers.

*starts sending brainwaves all over*

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Hmm, the only reference to such a preservation method I can think of is the shroud being kept safe and away from prying eyes, encased in what -to me- looks like a magic field of sorts.
*shrug*

There was no mention, nor of at least the slightest animation, of any such method (I don't recall the magic field part ), which is why it leaves a large question mark (at least, to me). Of course, it's probably the producers' intention for us to exercise our suspension of disbelief.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Actually, the audience will just go 'oh, they used blood to clone'

Given a choice, the audience will go for the preserved option first, but if preserved isn't mentioned 'it's blood, so it's good for cloning' works just as well.

It doesn't really apply here, considering this is really a minor thing, but there has always been an unwritten rule in my class when doing animation or video projects. Don't make your story to technical. The general audience doesn't care, and it'll just give the nitpickers more to nitpick. Point in case, episode 23, around the 09:40 mark, where we see the grunts holding of the gadget drones. One of the purposes of this scene was to show that the TSAB is more then just the heroes, and that even the grunts are capable of holding their own. Basically, it was meant to show that when properly organized, the TSAB is capable of proper military action. The general reaction of the audience was 'oh, okay' and at most 'woo, so that's a grunts fight' or something along those lines.

The military freaks among us tore into the situation like any other situation which involves military stuff, and ripped it apart.
There's that, and there's this, no doubt.

The onus with technicality is perhaps on the producers' capability to gauge the understanding of the public audience with regards to what they intend to show on screen. True, too much technicality is bad, but too little is just as well. Public expectation varies, of course, but it's really a matter of being able to judge what the audience is most likely to perceive of the scene.

Inasmuch as military experts among us nitpick (okay, ruthlessly tear into it ) on the incapabilities of TSAB, some of us who are considered the least experts on the field are also able to immediately spot the incongruency with which the military was shown to handle the problem. Honestly, I don't know heads or tails of military, but even I am able to tell that the scene, as far as the producers intend for it to tell, was slipshod. My military knowledge is severely limited, so you can see how obviously bad work was if I went "Huh? That's all?" at that scene. While it's true I didn't really care that much about how capable their officers were (at least because they're not the main focus of the show), a better effort could've been made to make a difference to my perception. It's my personal expectation of course, so the producers aren't obliged to fulfill them.

The point with animation is that if you can't express something with words, do it with scenes. Unlike authors who had to agonize over whether the sentences are understandable to the readers (and oh, dear god, whether the technical part will cause the readers to pull at their hair and scream "RAGE!" ), animation simplifies the matter with a few seconds of scenes that tell a lot. As they say, pictures are worth a thousand words.

Of course, there's some of us who's perfectly neutral on the view, in that as long as they get to view their favorite scenes (like Nanoha bombarding everyone with pink beams of doom ), everything else doesn't matter.

Choices, choices.

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It's ironic, the people who can point out the flaws in such things usually have the biggest SoD armor there is.
Yep.
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Old 2008-11-05, 11:21   Link #4419
Sheba
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*snips*

The introduction chapter is meant to introduce the 'expanded' universe. Imo, yes, there are other powers than the TSAB and they are bound to meet, some being friendly, others being less.

Characterization is a hit or a miss, while it seems easier for original characters, the task is not that easy for the canon characters. First, a typed, to not say written, fiction does not have voice actors to breathe life, images to give the readers an idea of how things look like. An extra effort from the author, me in that case, have to be made. I had to keep in mind to make them stay true to the original (hard) without making them static when confronted to potentially dramatic situations. this should be put to test as more chapters will roll along.

Now, as for hard sci-fi and soft sci-fi, I admit it was one of the more troublesome tasks, along with the CC characterization. The question was how much I could pour without killing the "taste" of the series and getting readers lost, and how little I can afford before the more hardcore starts rolling their eyes.

For the world building bit, it is something I still work on, since I started telling stories and playing pen & paper roleplaying games. My secret is not much of a secret, read, watch and catch in as much diverse sources as you can, in the age of internet, things like wikipedia or that dusty book you left in your shelf since ten years does come handy to give that small idea that makes you go EUREKA.

And yes, I do acknowledge my problems with grammar and spellings, beta readers are here, so does the microsoft text software.
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Old 2008-11-06, 01:12   Link #4420
Comartemis
He Who Smites Shippers
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
Alright folks, here's the first of a number of steps being taken towards making Comacanon a little more than a whole lot of vaporware.

Spoiler for Alex's Profile (Spell List and Device only):

Been a while since I've been able to say this...

*ahem*

Haxxbusters, GO!
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Burn the Angst.
Purge the Bad End.
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