[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[luckyssol]

Here's another example of how relying too heavily on machine translation will fail you:

Spoiler for Atlas+Agth translator failure:

Klashikari helped by providing the correct translation:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The translation should be:
Battler-kun is not the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This is applied to all games.

This is quite a huge difference and the problem is that it appears as though the sentence was properly translated.

In the end the only reliable translation will be the one done by The Witch Hunt.
Most of us appreciate all the hard work you guys have done and continue to do and can't thank you guys enough.

[theacefrehley]

One week late, but here I go...

Spoiler:

Just finished it

I really don't know what to think about this... It was not bad, but it was not the best one for me. I think I like EP4 more. Maybe it'll change with a 2nd reading.
I really hope EP6 will close the gaps and not start a new story, after all we didn't even had second night here...

Impressions:
Pobably everything was discussed to death here, whatever

New stuff:
1- Furudo Erika, the 'detective': Really annoying (intellectual rapist (?)(知的強姦者) my balls...).
If Ryuukishi was trying to compare us with her and make us feel bad, he did it... While from the point of view of 'mystery' she was great to provide an argument with more basis and consistency, she really raped the sense of reality of the story... everything about her was too forced IMHO. The way she arrived at the island, the way she behaved with people and spoke (plus, her overly polite speaking style annoyed me to death, I really enjoyed to see her suffering ). But it helps a BIT if we think that it was just the real world and game-board world mingling together. I think it wouldn't be asking much for her to behave like human being at least.
Also, it seemed that she solved the riddle way too easily. At least she gave us the hint that it has something to do with an Atlas (at EP3, people were speculating that the book Eva read could have been the bible...)

2- Natsuhi, the star of the episode: Now we know that she really had a fucked life, the pure Shinto Priest daughter stole like a trophy. And I almost started to cheer for her to be the criminal and finish off all those bastards (you know who you are ) of the Ushiromiya family with some gunshots in their forehead. And her husband... She would have to pretend Kinzo was alive for more like 10 years until his business bear fruits...

3- Krauss = Loser. The NASA stuff was the greateast.

4- Beatrice: The more I try to think, the less I understand. In the Ura Teatime, Battler understood the truth, realized he was pushing an eternal torture on Beatrice, realized he was the one at fault (sin from 6 years ago) and was feeling really bad. She really wanted him to finish her off. The heck... Any theories here? Could she be like, it's corny but, the personification of family's bad blood, hatred among family, originated by something he did 6 years ago? And finish her off = solve family problems?

Or something obvious like an avatar of a girl or woman (Jessica, Maria). Battler not remembering anything seems way too convenient...

5- Guy from 19 years ago: This was the new item I liked the most. First, I don't think he is real. The baby must really have died. He might have some relation with the baby or the servant who died with the baby, and is using it as an excuse. The interesting fact is that, at first, he uses the pronoun 'ore' (俺) (Battler and Rudolf use it more oftenly), and then, around chapter 10, he changes it to 'boku' (僕) (George and Kanon are the only one using it). Could this be a hint that the revenge boy is not a single person? He probably was acting in other episodes as well. I even considered the possibility of him being an illusion, but since Genji answered more than once his calls, I think we may accept his existence, for now... or not...

6- Doranooru: Personification of Knox rules. A good addition, even though I'm a bit uneasy with all the omissions that are made trusting solely on these rules... In a mystery, a literary work, they make the most sense, but I have the (bad) tendency to think about the story as a real world, and real world doesn't follow these rules.

7- Golden truth = Kinzo's 6 fingers?

Plot:
- Now that we know that Kinzo is dead (well, we knew that from EP4...) and all the farce that Krauss and Natsuhi created, it really makes me want to re-read all the previous episodes and try to interpret every scene Kinzo-related that happens. For example, most probably, in the middle of EP2, Rosa got to know about Kinzo's status (after 1st night), and even so, she decided to keep it a secret. Or could it be that Shannon and Genji shielded his existence and protected the secret, even without their masters alive?

- The cousins, Rosa and Genji not being dead when they found the corpses is really bizarre. Unless I'm missing something, it would imply 3 things:
1- They are up to something and pretended to be dead.
2- They were drugged and just unconscious and were later kidnapped and killed elsewhere (Why to do this? To deceive the meta world beings?)
I guess some red text assured there's no fake corpses, so, what about the cuts? If I was there I would stick my finger inside just to make sure
3- A mix of the first two: some of them drugged and unconscious, and some others plotting something (Rosa anyone?)

Does anyone remember if this trick of pretending to be dead was denied for all the games?


- Hideyoshi's murder: Since we had red text assuring Natsuhi was not the criminal, the most suspicious one here is Eva. It seems Natsuhi was too nervous too pick the details. It would not be that hard for Eva to create a 'secret room' here. And if she was in league with the revenge boy from 19 years ago, she would know Natsuhi was there in the closet and it would be perfect to blame her even more. Also, was it ever stated that Hideyoshi was dead? If the cousins were able to fake that cut... why not another theater here to mess even more Natsuhi's life?


With all that said, my lame theories:

1: Ushiromiya Battle Royale: I guess I'm supposing this ever since EP2, and if this is still surviving, maybe it's on the right path.
- All people, mainly the adults but not necessarily discarding the kids, going to that island have a killer instinct. All of them are plotting murders because of the inheritance, to solve their money troubles. Each person, or 'team', has a script and that's why things change each episode. Maybe there's even a collision of scripts. However, everything goes wrong at the end and that's why everybody dies. And I wouldn't doubt the instigator of all this shit was Kinzo. Maybe he sent letter to the people to tempt them to do this before he died. He was already crazed, maybe he believed this 'ritual' would ressurrect him and Beatrice. Or maybe he was just evil. He fucked with Natsuhi's life, was a bad father, despised Rosa, Krauss, and in EP5, it was even Narrated by Nanjo that he destroyed economically his opponents.

2: Rosa+Eva: These two are really shady. I think there's too many things that can be solved with this combo, but now I'm sleepy....

[Rias]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

One week late, but here I go...

Spoiler:

New stuff:
1- Furudo Erika, the 'detective': Really annoying (intellectual rapist (?)(知的強姦者) my balls...).
If Ryuukishi was trying to compare us with her and make us feel bad, he did it... While from the point of view of 'mystery' she was great to provide an argument with more basis and consistency, she really raped the sense of reality of the story... everything about her was too forced IMHO. The way she arrived at the island, the way she behaved with people and spoke (plus, her overly polite speaking style annoyed me to death, I really enjoyed to see her suffering ). But it helps a BIT if we think that it was just the real world and game-board world mingling together. I think it wouldn't be asking much for her to behave like human being at least.
Also, it seemed that she solved the riddle way too easily. At least she gave us the hint that it has something to do with an Atlas (at EP3, people were speculating that the book Eva read could have been the bible...)


5- Guy from 19 years ago: This was the new item I liked the most. First, I don't think he is real. The baby must really have died. He might have some relation with the baby or the servant who died with the baby, and is using it as an excuse. The interesting fact is that, at first, he uses the pronoun 'ore' (俺) (Battler and Rudolf use it more oftenly), and then, around chapter 10, he changes it to 'boku' (僕) (George and Kanon are the only one using it). Could this be a hint that the revenge boy is not a single person? He probably was acting in other episodes as well. I even considered the possibility of him being an illusion, but since Genji answered more than once his calls, I think we may accept his existence, for now... or not...


- The cousins, Rosa and Genji not being dead when they found the corpses is really bizarre. Unless I'm missing something, it would imply 3 things:
1- They are up to something and pretended to be dead.
2- They were drugged and just unconscious and were later kidnapped and killed elsewhere (Why to do this? To deceive the meta world beings?)
I guess some red text assured there's no fake corpses, so, what about the cuts? If I was there I would stick my finger inside just to make sure
3- A mix of the first two: some of them drugged and unconscious, and some others plotting something (Rosa anyone?)

Does anyone remember if this trick of pretending to be dead was denied for all the games?


- Hideyoshi's murder: Since we had red text assuring Natsuhi was not the criminal, the most suspicious one here is Eva. It seems Natsuhi was too nervous too pick the details. It would not be that hard for Eva to create a 'secret room' here. And if she was in league with the revenge boy from 19 years ago, she would know Natsuhi was there in the closet and it would be perfect to blame her even more. Also, was it ever stated that Hideyoshi was dead? If the cousins were able to fake that cut... why not another theater here to mess even more Natsuhi's life?

Spoiler for ep5 elements:

1. Another theing weird about her is of course, as a detective, she has to prove that humans did it and disprove the witches. But why is she treating Berun, a witch, as her master? It's messy.

5. Good catch. Another discussion that has been around is the source of the phone call. First phone call is open to interpertation, but the 2nd one is clearly an outside line. 3rd phone call is from an inside line.


Dead cousins, Natushi, Hideyoshi: A popular theory that's picking up speed is the "Everyone is conspiring against Natsuhi theory". Basically all the family members except Krauss/Natushi is conspiring so that they can get the truth of "Kinzo is dead" out (again, money and deeds and whatnots). They kidnap Krauss, and force Natushi into a corner, by faking deaths and whatnots. In the background, the culprit moves and kill off people for real, while the other family members didn't know they are actually dead and believed that it was part of an act.

Pretending to be dead isn't denied by red completely, as red text has its loophole of not time senstive (as illustrated again in ep5.) Also, Rule #9 allows people besides the detective to see others "dead".

[MeoTwister5]

None of what Samar and I posted were meant to be taken as precise and exact because they are only are only what they are: Roug summaries. I left out many things I could not translate properly as a matter of fact so that it would not bog down the summaries with mistranslated text. Everything I included is there because I was confident enough to consider them correct for the most part, and there are many parts there such as my request for the Trial Theory List to be tranlsated better than me, so that it can be better understood.

This is not meant to be taken as a replacement for an actual honest to god translation, it's just here as a walkthrough of the events. I can't claim to have understand all of the subtleties and have listed them down accordingly, as I am limited of understanding of Japanese from 6 college course units of the language, using a translator and using a dictionary. If you intend to get that much and more from anything Samar and I posted then you're barking up the wrong tree. Use these summaries to know the events of the plot as a whole. For everything else just wait for Witch Hunt to translate it.

And yes I do have to chime in that using Atlas will require 2x-3x more brain power than you would have otherwised used if you could translate it completely. Use it only if you are capable. I would have to say sometimes even if Atlas churns out something, I'm forced to try and retranslate it anyway in my head plus an actual dictionary and I get something different. Those sentences are placed with a (?).

I will, in fact, play this game again when the English tranlsation comes out.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Rias

Spoiler for ep5 elements:

1. Another theing weird about her is of course, as a detective, she has to prove that humans did it and disprove the witches. But why is she treating Berun, a witch, as her master? It's messy.

5. Good catch. Another discussion that has been around is the source of the phone call. First phone call is open to interpertation, but the 2nd one is clearly an outside line. 3rd phone call is from an inside line.


Dead cousins, Natushi, Hideyoshi: A popular theory that's picking up speed is the "Everyone is conspiring against Natsuhi theory". Basically all the family members except Krauss/Natushi is conspiring so that they can get the truth of "Kinzo is dead" out (again, money and deeds and whatnots). They kidnap Krauss, and force Natushi into a corner, by faking deaths and whatnots. In the background, the culprit moves and kill off people for real, while the other family members didn't know they are actually dead and believed that it was part of an act.

Pretending to be dead isn't denied by red completely, as red text has its loophole of not time senstive (as illustrated again in ep5.) Also, Rule #9 allows people besides the detective to see others "dead".

Spoiler for Concept:

Just a concept doubt:
As for rule #9: I guess it also applies to the detective, or no?
While Doranooru was trying to prove Battler was a detective, she said (about Battler seeing Kinzo):

それは風雨になびくシートか何かを、あなたが誤認しただけの可能性がありマス。
ノックス第９条を示す伏線とはなり得まセン…！！　誤認は全ての観測者に許された権利デス

I guess what is not allowed to the detective is, as Battler said:
観測の虚偽は誰にも認められた権利だが、……ただ一人だけ許されていない人物がいる。
それが、“探偵”なんだ…！！

There's a bit of difference between 虚偽 and 誤認.
誤認 Would be allowed for the detective, or not?

Anyway, small detail since Erika did not check the corpses anyway

Spoiler for conspiracy:

Interesting theory, this one of the conspiracy 'everyong against krauss'.
That could lead to Battler's sin from 6 years ago.
Since he's almost an outsider, because he was away for 6 years, people don't trust him enough, and so, they left him out of the conspiracy, the theater.
His sin would be leaving the family in 1980.
Had he not left, they'd try to include him in the plot and, like this, he could have more chances to stop the farce and maybe make things more difficult for the person killing people for real (his character would never allow him to take part in this shit).

Also, with the logic of fake deaths (to press krauss family) later becoming real deaths by an unexpected killer, we could explain why Battler is always left alive until the end. He's never part of the fake deaths.
Jessica's eventual participation in the farce against her own parents could be explained with some drug to make her unconscious (this doesn't violate any knox rules about strange drugs, devices...). Or maybe she willingly takes part in this.

Spoiler for conspiracy again:

Before the family meeting, Rudolf invited Rosa to a meeting to plot something against Krauss. Nice chance to draw the whole farce stuff, 'research wounds disguises' maybe.

Spoiler for some math:

From EP3, we know that 19 years ago (1967), some 'Beatrice' lived in the Kuwadorian mansion.
Around that same time, Rosa, who still live in Rokkenjima, had a little 'adventure' with 'Beatrice', who ended up dead.
Around that same time, the ship captain was told to stop bringing stuff to Kuwadorian.
Around that same time, the whole 3 days incident with the baby and Natsuhi and the servants happened. It was said that Rosa was away in a trip with friends, (But the incident may have leaked to her and used as part of the conspiracy)
The only ones to know about it were the servant, Natsuhi, Kinzo and, later, Krauss.
Also, Battler is said to be 18 years old, but what if he is in fact, 19 years old?

Too much stuff happening around the same time.

Hmm... What if:
Natsuhi's baby = Beato's orphan baby (thanks, Rosa), and Battler is also one of Beato's baby?

Spoiler for real killer:

I think the conspiracy theory makes the most sense so far. What would remain then would be who is the fucker who decided to not follow the plan, and kill people for real in the background?

Maybe this would be part of the random element in Ryuukishi's style. The rule X. The random one to go nuts. Each time a random thing triggers the killer instinct of someone.

Rule Y would be the conspiracy, everyone is strongly willing to create a farce to press Krauss, so it always happens.

Rule Z, the fog covering rule Y, would be Kinzo's dead status.

And what would be the equivalent of 'Rika's hidden death in Watanagashi' that makes things turn out wrong in EP3?

[MeoTwister5]

One long summary from me today, but a freaking fast-paced one with a... shocking cliffhanger twist. I may or may not have shit myself seeing it.

Spoiler for Ep5 MAJOR Summary:

This scene begins with Battler's counterattack attempt and ends with... well... see for yourself.

Battler Counteroffensive
- In the room, Eva openly accuses Natsuhi of murder. Natsuhi continues to deny. Erika declares her a criminal.
- Eva grabs Natsuhi and starts hitting her. They start fighting. Battler intervenes. He gets hit by Eva. Eva continues to beat her and no one bothers to stop it.
- It seems they all accepted Erika's truth and accept Eva's anger-driven rage. No one seems to believe her any longer.
- Erika says she's discovered two of the three mysteries. For the last she wants her to confess. Natsuhi rambles about Krauss being taken hostage etc. but it seems no one's listening.
- Beato in spirit form screams that she as the witch is the real culprit. Erika apparently notices her and says that the verdict is decided and that she's but a mere fantasy.
- In the cathedral Erika asks Lambda to bury Beato. Lambda I think asks for her olast words? Beato declares herself a witch. Lamba asks what a suitable end for Beato is.
- Bern recalls the goat-feeding chaos and frenzy of Beato's own previous games and says this is likewise appropriate. More giggles.
- The goats appear and carry her up. Bern wants to hear a good scream. Beato says she will not let Bern have at least that.
- The goats toss Beato's body off of the balcony. She laughs (?) while in midair. She lands into a boiler surrounded by goats. They start devouring her.
- In the midst, Dlanor uses her red sword and cuts down some (?) goats and gets into the middle. Lambda asks why. Dlanor says Battler has an objection to say.
- Battler realizes Dlanor is giving him a chance (?) to mount a counter. He runs through his mind and knows he must present a different truth to counter Erika.
- Battler, partly in the game world it seems, knows he has a lmited time to find a counter.
- Back in Rokkenjima the place is tense with Eva going amok. He needs to find a counter before the clock hits 12mn.
- He gets up in the catherdal and will challenge, though he says he has no plan. Bern says something about burying Natsuhi.
- Dlanor will be Battler's opponent. Battler begins his counter as the two witches make similarities of Beato's eventual fate to Ange's body being obliterated like minced meat.
- Battler says in blue that the reliability Erika's seals can be doubted. The use of the slip of paper is not absolute proof of the alibi.
- Erika demos how she did it with packing tape, pasting the seals on the doors with it. It leaves a trail when removed, so it would have been noticed if it were removed and replaced.
- Dlanor says in red that the seals are guaranteed. Erika's seals aren't torn off and cannot be faked.
- Battler says in blue that Erika admitted doing it that way, but the seal used by Eva on Genji's door must have been different.
- Dlanor says in red that the way of sealing by Eva is the same as Erika's. It is because this manner of sealing was decided by both Erika and Eva.
- Battler says in blue that with checking of Kinzo's study, there may be a solvent chemical used that could remove the stains left by the packing tape when it is peeled.
- Gertrude says in red that there is no method that can remove the seals without leaving a mark. Cornelia adds in red that the seals have no suspucious signs.
- Bern summarizes in red that in all the seals made by Erika, there is nothing that can ruin the function of the seals such as peeling.
- Battler is driven back by the red. Dlanor asks if the issue of the seals are over.
- Beato asks if there's a chance. Battler says he'll make one because he promised he'd be the one to take her out. Beato challenges Dlanor again. Battler however busts out another theory.
- Battler says in blue that with the assumption of a method X of getting to the second floor without passing the lounge, Erika cannot guarantee that she sealed all possible entrances though she sealed the windows. It is therefore possible to enter through these that was not sealed by her.
- Dlanor states Knox article 3 in red, that the existence of a secret passage is forbidden. As a detective she has sealed all the entrances. There cannot be a secret passage she would not discover, therefore a secret entrance she did not discover cannot exist.
- Battler says in blue that Erika's observing in the lounge was imperfect. There may have been a time she looked away in the 2 hours she was there. The moment she was not looking might be enough for someone to sneak by her observation.
- Gertrude says in red that Erika's lounge observation was perfect. There is no chance for her to be careless or have oversight. Cornelia says in red that Erika (?) would have seen everything in the lounge.
- Battler questions in blue if the Rosa that came was the real Rosa. It could have been someone disguised as her. It could also be that someone was hiding inside her travel bag.
- Dlanor says in red that Knox article 10 says that a person disguised or looks like her is prohibited. It can only be if there was a previous clue to this possibility. No one could have hidden themselves in her luggage.
- Battler says in blue the possibility of the person who threatened Natsuhi. This person X that is unknown is the true culprit. Can they declare who are on the island? The true culprit exists as someone outside of them.
- Dlanor states in red Knox article 1, that it is prohibited that the criminal is someone unknown to them (it should be someone presented already)
- Battler suggests in blue that there is a possibility of remote homicide by poison. A mystery medicine. This gives an alibi.
- Dlanor says Knox article 4 in red, that it is prohibited to use unknown medicines and difficult scientific devices.
- Battler says in blue that the murderer had a secret device made in the children's room and the anteroom that was discovered but not mentioned (by Erika?).
- Dlanor declares in red Knox article 8 that all evidences are obligated to be declared.
- Battler syas in blue that the reasons is there is a true culprit who murdered them that is not Natsuhi. It should just be repeated in red, but if it is denied, then she is not the criminal.
- Dlanor says in red that by Knox article 6, using coincidences and sixth senses (in this case the red truth) cannot be used in the method of investigation.
- Battler objects in blue that while everyone has an alibi, Erika's alibi is being used to prove everyone else's.
- Dlanor says in red Knox article 7, that the detective cannot be the criminal.
- Battler insists in blue that the possibility of Natsuhi's innocence is incontrovertibly there unless she is caught red-handed. Her innocence cannot be denied because there is some future evidence Erika has not yet discovered (shown?).
- Dlanor says in red Knox article 8, that it is prohibited to have a solution using an unpresented clue.
- Battler (now cracking) says in blue that this story (trial?) is being filled with malice and lies. Natsuhi is being trapped with falsehoods and the method of this trial (?) and requires fair truth and trial restructuring.
- Dlanor states in red Knox article 9, that the observers are seeing exactly what they (Dlanor? The prosecution?) thinking (and thus are valid).
- Battler declares in blue that he did it with the use of a delayed acting poison that kills them after 12mn, and that he came back at 3am to cut them at the neck without making a sound. You did not have evidence of this (???)
- Dlanor again says Knox article 8 in red that there cannot be an unpresented clue.
- Battler declares in blue that they were suicides. Thus no criminal exists.
- Gertrude declares in red that they were all murder victims.
- Battler says in blue that Erika did not check the bodies. A human other than Erika could have mistaken their autopsy as dead.
- Cornelia says in red that all were dead and the autopsy is not wrong.
- Battler insists in blue that those were not their bodies, but corpses prepared beforehand.
- Gertrude says in red that those were their real corpses.
- Battler questions that while you can confirm them dead with their corpses, Krauss doesn't have a corpse. This violates (?) Knox's rules (?).
- Cornelia states in red that the red truth is true and needs no evidence to confirm it.
- At this point all of Battler's blue is shot down and he stops. Beato has all but given up. Battler seems out of options. Dlanor says something about Natsuhi being the culprit. Battler knows he can't show Natsuhi's innocence.
- Bern mocks him saying if he can't show his truth, he is an incapable piece. Battler talks about being banished into the darkness. He wishes that someone someday (?) will expose the truth.
- Beato is apperently ready to offer herself as sacrifice. Erika and Dlanor are apparently ready to continue with Beato's erasal.
- Kambda and Bern says Beato and Battler are unnecessary in their game. Cue laugh. Battler however has one last card to play that was influenced by Virgilia. He claims this will return Erik'as truth to zero.
- Battler declares in red that Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not a criminal! (God I tried to translate this line 4 times).
- Dlanow however says in red that with Knox article 2, it is prohibited to use supernatural abilities in the mehtod of investigation.
- Lambda questions how he can even use this since it is a witch's privilage. Bern says this is no manner of reasoning since (?) only from supernatural can supernatural arise.
- Battler remembers what Virgilia said to him. Dlanor demands that Battler show proof for the red he used. Battler turns to Beato who is still crying/in pain (?). She thanks him?
- Dlanor declares this court adjourned in red and rambles full of desu and some other shit.
- Narrator says this fifth game was adjourned. The trial had to show three things: 1) Who is the criminal? (Natsuhi) 2) When/How it is done (Between 1mn of October 4 to 1am of October 5 in the guesthouse scond floor children's room and the mansion anteroom). Everyone else's alibis were proven.
- A huge red spike of truth comes crashing down and pierces Battler in the chest (oh noes!) as the two witches laugh. Dlanor tells him to sleep. Battler continues to bleed. Battlers eyes slowly shut and... dies.
- BATTLER (META BATTLER?) IS DEAD.

Here's the Red and Blue for this Battle.

Spoiler for Red Truth:

- The seals are guaranteed. Erika's seals aren't torn off and cannot be
faked.
- The way of sealing by Eva is the same as Erika's. It is because this manner of sealing was decided by both Erika and Eva.
- There is no method that can remove the seals without leaving a mark.
- In all the seals made by Erika, there is nothing that can ruin the function of the seals such as peeling.
- The existence of a secret passage is forbidden. As a detective she has sealed all the entrances. There cannot be a secret passage she would not discover, therefore a secret entrance she did not discover cannot exist.
- Erika's lounge observation was perfect. There is no chance for her to be careless or have oversight.
- Erika (?) would have seen everything in the lounge.
- A person disguised or looks like her is prohibited. It can only be if there was a previous clue to this possibility. No one could have hidden themselves in her luggage.
- It is prohibited that the criminal is someone unknown to them (it should be someone presented already)
- It is prohibited to use unknown medicines and difficult scientific devices.
- All evidences are obligated to be declared.
- Using coincidences and sixth senses (in this case the red truth) cannot be used in the method of investigation.
- The detective cannot be the criminal.
- It is prohibited to have a solution using an unpresented clue.
- There cannot be an unpresented clue.
- They were all murder victims.
- All were dead and the autopsy is not wrong.
- Those were their real corpses.
- The red truth is true and needs no evidence to confirm it.
- Battler declares in red that Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not a criminal! (God I tried to translate this line 4 times).
- It is prohibited to use supernatural abilities in the method of investigation.

Spoiler for Blue Truth:

- The reliability Erika's seals can be doubted. The use of the slip of paper is not absolute proof of the alibi.
- With checking of Kinzo's study, there may be a solvent chemical used that could remove the stains left by the packing tape when it is peeled.
- The assumption of a method X of getting to the second floor without passing the lounge, Erika cannot guarantee that she sealed all possible entrances though she sealed the windows. It is therefore possible to enter through these that was not sealed by her.
- Erika's observing in the lounge was imperfect. There may have been a time she looked away in the 2 hours she was there. The moment she was not looking might be enough for someone to sneak by her observation.
- If the Rosa that came was the real Rosa. It could have been someone disguised as her. It could also be that someone was hiding inside her travel bag.
- The possibility of the person who threatened Natsuhi. This person X that is unknown is the true culprit. Can they declare who are on the island? The true culprit exists as someone outside of them.
- There is a possibility of remote homicide by poison. A mystery medicine. This gives an alibi.
- The murderer had a secret device made in the children's room and the anteroom that was discovered but not mentioned (by Erika?).
- The reasons is there is a true culprit who murdered them that is not Natsuhi. It should just be repeated in red, but if it is denied, then she is not the criminal.
- While everyone has an alibi, Erika's alibi is being used to prove everyone else's.
- The possibility of Natsuhi's innocence is incontrovertibly there unless she is caught red-handed. Her innocence cannot be denied because there is some future evidence Erika has not yet discovered (shown?).
- Battler declares in blue that he did it with the use of a delayed acting poison that kills them after 12mn, and that he came back at 3am to cut them at the neck without making a sound. You did not have evidence of this (???)
- They were suicides. Thus no criminal exists.
- Erika did not check the bodies. A human other than Erika could have mistaken their autopsy as dead.
- Those were not their bodies, but corpses prepared beforehand.
- while you can confirm them dead with their corpses, Krauss doesn't have a corpse. This violates (?) Knox's rules (?).

Now if by some reason you didn't get the the cliffhanger end of this scene in the game, here's some fanart from the Images thread to get it into perspective:

Spoiler for Spoilers. Big Ass Spoilers.:

Spoiler for When I mean Big Ass Spoilers I mean it!:

[Klashikari]

Spoiler for end spoiler:

- Dlanor states in red Knox article 9, that the observers are seeing exactly what they (Dlanor? The prosecution?) thinking (and thus are valid).

No, Dlanor explains that all observers are entitled to their opinion and perspective, and thus are allowed to raise their own point of view.
Since Battler believes Natsuhi isn't the culprit, so Erika is in her right to believe she is.

[AgitoS]

I have finished Episode 5 and I have some ideas that may prove useful. Episode 5 was a godsend for me because of the number of hints provided. I have not really followed these forums so I do not know if this was suggested already.

Spoiler for scene:

The biggest hint is the following: It is quite inconsistent that the bodies from the first homicide event (first twilight) were removed. It is understood that Gaap has transferred the bodies to a secret room unaccessible by humans. The mystery component (alternative to magic component) is not yet understood at this point but we can speculate here that those bodies were not actually dead when we first identify them in the story. In other words, as many have been suggesting, they (read: not all) are pretending to be dead. And conveniently, Doctor Nanjo has always survived the first twilight to provide autopsies of the dead bodies. The detective authority did not interfere in this case interestingly enough. In other words, Doctor Nanjo is an accomplice to the true culprits and knows about the true status of Kinzo Ushiromiya.

With this piece of information about the first twilight, analyzing of real motives, the golden truth about Kinzo and the red truths declaring 2 characters are not true culprits (Natsuhi and Battler... gold truth+red truth provide direly required constants in process of elimination), I am beginning to see some final answers here. Unfortunately my theories are heavily relying on the fact that Doctor Nanjo survives the first twilight for every single game. So EP6 might disprove this and completely wreck my theory.

I'm looking forward to EP6 for more validation for my theories.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Now if by some reason you didn't get the the cliffhanger end of this scene in the game, here's some fanart from the Images thread to get it into perspective:

Spoiler for Spoilers. Big Ass Spoilers.:

Spoiler for When I mean Big Ass Spoilers I mean it!:

;______________;

Originally Posted by AgitoS

Spoiler for scene:

The biggest hint is the following: It is quite inconsistent that the bodies from the first homicide event (first twilight) were removed. It is understood that Gaap has transferred the bodies to a secret room unaccessible by humans. The mystery component (alternative to magic component) is not yet understood at this point but we can speculate here that those bodies were not actually dead when we first identify them in the story. In other words, as many have been suggesting, they (read: not all) are pretending to be dead. And conveniently, Doctor Nanjo has always survived the first twilight to provide autopsies of the dead bodies. The detective authority did not interfere in this case interestingly enough. In other words, Doctor Nanjo is an accomplice to the true culprits and knows about the true status of Kinzo Ushiromiya.

With this piece of information about the first twilight, analyzing of real motives, the golden truth about Kinzo and the red truths declaring 2 characters are not true culprits (Natsuhi and Battler... gold truth+red truth provide direly required constants in process of elimination), I am beginning to see some final answers here. Unfortunately my theories are heavily relying on the fact that Doctor Nanjo survives the first twilight for every single game. So EP6 might disprove this and completely wreck my theory.

Spoiler:

If we take into account the letters their families received later (the ones with the pass to the bank account), perhaps, we can assume Rudolph (maybe Kyrie too) and Kumasawa were involved.

All the same, I wonder why would anyone start sending the other letters (the ones in the bottles). Perhaps, someone was forced to participate in this?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

*snip*

Okay, wait, what, what?

Spoiler for query:

So, wait. The red can't be used as evidence?

But that's the point. The red is auto-evidence. It's the truth. That's the whole point of the red.

If someone is capable of saying something in red, it's automatically true. Therefore, Natsuhi cannot be the culprit.

So HOW THE HELL did Battler lose that match? Why does he need evidence to prove his red?

Please, someone explain.

[Antera Caramichael]

Well, I think I understand:

Spoiler for Response:

Battler is still in the Anti-fantasy side, and so his using of the red truth is limited by the permission given by the Anti-mystery side. In short, because he is still the "detective", he has to prove his reasonning because if he could use the red truth like this, he would just have to say: "The culprit is human". Furthermore: We have to take note that Battler must also prove to the Ushiromiya Family that Natsuhi is not the culprit. Only saying "Natsuhi is not the culprit" does not change anything to the fact that everyone believe that she is. That is why I think Dlanor refuses his red statement: It is going against the real world develloppement of the story.

[Tyabann]

So,

Spoiler:

Although his red is true, it doesn't count as evidence because of his Anti-Fantasy status? Because he still has to prove it in the real world?

...That seems somewhat unfair. But then again Battler was never capable of winning with what he was given from the beginning...

Edit: Yeah, my problem is these two lines:

Spoiler for meotwister's summary:

-Cornelia states in red that the red truth is true and needs no evidence to confirm it.

and

-Dlanor demands that Battler show proof for the red he used.

Um.

WHAT.

[Antera Caramichael]

Spoiler for Response:

Well, as you say, he is pretty disadvantaged. But we also must replace the Red Truth: It is supposed to be the Anti-mystery Main Tool. Battler isn't even supposed to say anything in red, the blue should be his only weapon.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael

Spoiler for Response:

Well, as you say, he is pretty disadvantaged. But we also must replace the Red Truth: It is supposed to be the Anti-mystery Main Tool. Battler isn't even supposed to say anything in red, the blue should be his only weapon.

Spoiler for with that logic:

No one else should be able to use the blue but Battler... but they do anyway. It's not fair in the least.

It's still hypocrisy, anyway.


THE RED TRUTH IS TRUE AND NEEDS NO EVIDENCE

YOU NEED EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOUR RED TRUTH


(I really hope Ryukishi realizes how utterly hypocritical this is...)

...I really don't see how Battler, or us, could come to any kind of conclusion at this point. We're so incredibly disadvantaged here.

[Antera Caramichael]

.... Argh I'm also getting confused^^
Well I'm trying this theory:

Spoiler for Response:

Everyone can use red or blue text. BUT the red truth have some limits: Battler is technically not in his right for telling in Red "Natsuhi is not the culprit". Why? Beato tells that in the begining of Ep2: "There would be no game if I say "This crime was comited by magic"".
The objective of this fight was to prove that Natsuhi is the culprit, or not. Saying in red "Natsuhi is not the culprit" is then "anti-gaming" because Battler wins automatically. If you look through all the games, you reallise that any fight conclude by the resignation of a side. Beatrice nether said "This murder cannot be done by humans or humans tricks". The objective of each side is not to win the game: It is to acculate the other side to admit his defeat. Battler is the symbole of that: In the first four games, he can only lose by resignating.

That was my theory =p

[Tyabann]

Still doesn't clear up the clear contradiction. If it wasn't true, then he wouldn't have been able to say it in red. And the red is defined as automatically providing evidence.

[Antera Caramichael]

Spoiler for Response:

And that is why Dlanor said that the game was adjourned (Now I hope it has the same meaning a I think, the same in French =p): What does she have to do? Battler said in red so it is the truth but the game was to him to provide another possible theory in order to disculp Natsuhi. I think she need some time to think and then revive Battler (She told him to sleep no? )

by the way, is it the end of the game? of the Tea Party? the ????? or are we still in the middle of the game? =p

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Spoiler for meotwister's summary:

-Cornelia states in red that the red truth is true and needs no evidence to confirm it.

and

-Dlanor demands that Battler show proof for the red he used.

Um.

WHAT.

That red truth is said by Lambdadelta. She is the Game Master, the only one can say red truth without any limitation.

Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael

by the way, is it the end of the game? of the Tea Party? the ????? or are we still in the middle of the game? =p

Still one part in human world, the Tea Party, and a loooooooooooong Hidden Tea Party.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Still doesn't clear up the clear contradiction. If it wasn't true, then he wouldn't have been able to say it in red. And the red is defined as automatically providing evidence.

Maybe you're right and the game characters are wrong. Maybe Battler's red is exactly what it claims to be?

[k//eternal]

Well... there's nothing wrong with saying Natsuhi isn't the culprit in red, I think. After all, it was previously stated in red that Battler wasn't the culprit. It's just the same thing, but happened to be more crippling in this instance.