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View Poll Results: Nisemonogatari - Episode 08 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 166 | 75.45% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 22 | 10.00% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 10 | 4.55% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 3 | 1.36% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 4 | 1.82% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 3 | 1.36% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 3 | 1.36% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 2 | 0.91% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 1 | 0.45% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 6 | 2.73% | |
Voters: 220. You may not vote on this poll |
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2012-02-26, 16:21 | Link #301 | |
On a mission
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In other words, there's almost always a legit reason to vote something "Good" "bad" or "something in between". And staring at the poll suggests that many people have thought different things. It's also why I try to avoid psychoanalyzing other people's motives. When I see a comment about this episode, it's merely a snapshot of their thoughts of a single episode of the whole show. I don't clearly know what they think of this anime or anime in general, and often as hard as I try to extrapolate, the reality of someone's tastes is often far different than what you can expect at first glance.
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2012-02-26, 16:35 | Link #302 | |||
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You do see this everyday in anime. A fanservice-dominated anime episode. Heavy incestuous overtones. Oh wow! How daring! How bold! How... I've seen this a bazillion places before. How disappointing of the man who wrote the excellent arcs and dialogue of Bakemonogatari. Yes, the use of a toothbrush was mildly creative (I write "mildly" because it never went anywhere outside of Karen's mouth), but the toothbrush is simply a vehicle for the oldest and most tired anime tropes in the book. Furthermore, the vehicle chosen utterly destroyed my suspension of disbelief. I've been to a Dentist before. Getting your teeth brushed by another person is highly unlikely to have an effect like this, even if you're madly in love with the person doing the brushing. What's in Nise Episode 8 is all over the place in anime. It's nothing new, and it's nothing fresh, and it's nowhere near worth the insane levels of hype that this is episode is getting, imo. It's admittedly very well-executed (production values, dialogue) sexual innuendo comedy, but "sexual innuendo comedy" is frankly dime-a-dozen in anime. What the Monogatari series used to be was much more fresh and unique in comparison to that, imo. The Monogatari series actually used to explore interesting conflicts, ideas, relationship issues, and themes. There was a certain intellectual and thought-provoking heft to it. Aside from a couple conversations involving Kaiki there's been virtually none of this in Nise. Quote:
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All of the fanservice scenes of this anime (with the exceptions of the one involving Hitagi) can't go anywhere, hence keeping character relationships in something of a holding pattern as far as romantic/sexual interest is concerned. They're all one big tease, imo. That's a lot of what I often find unsatisfying about them. But then, that's partly why I've never understood the love of sexual fanservice that a fair number of anime fans have - So much of it is a tease that doesn't go anywhere, and will never go anywhere. And this episode is also almost certainly going to amount to nothing but a big tease (unless Nisio is bolder than I currently think he is, and hence chooses to seriously threaten the Arargi/Hitagi pairing). What interest this episode could have had for me is drowned out in the knowledge that Araragi is basically already taken (by someone who's liable to kill him or seriously maim him if he breaks her heart) and the Monogatari series won't go so far as to show actual sex scenes on camera.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-02-26 at 16:55. |
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2012-02-26, 16:41 | Link #303 |
Stüldt Hĺjt!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: On the corner
Age: 34
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Pretty much everything has been done already. I have seen a lot kinkier stuff than any mainstream anime could ever deliver. You could also argue that Karen chose to be aroused by the simple brushing of teeth. The physiological evidence of this actually causing any kind of sexual excitement is zero, I think. Can't rule out the psychological factors, though.
I choose to be excited by the small stuff. It doesn't matter, for me, that it's only "mildly creative". It matters because it's exactly these characters and exactly in this show, that I love, who are doing it. edit: I can, once again, only allude to what relentlessflame wrote about perspective below.
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Last edited by zarqu; 2012-02-26 at 16:55. |
2012-02-26, 16:46 | Link #304 | ||||
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Works of fiction are abstractions of reality. Simplified abstractions of reality. Things work in the most easiest way. For example in movie we often see people shooting at locks to open a door. In reality it wouldn't work, but in fiction it's just an abstraction of what one has to do to open a locked door, so the audience can accept it. Much more acceptable than having someone spend ten minutes on screen to pick a lock. What happens in anime? You beat someone up? Chances are he will become your friend and ally. Someone is moping? A punch to his face will make him come to his senses. Araragi can't get on well with his sister? Pseudo-sex scene. Now they are just one step away from being carnal lovers. That's the concept. What Nisio does is a substitution of reality. The author just threw away the tedious parts and instead offered a pseudo-explanation, highly improbable and therefore even believable, of a catharsis between siblings randomly initiated by an unsuspectable trigger, and both the characters and the audience were caught off guard. This was glorious. Quote:
The fact is that there is a poll over this thread, so you can easily gauge how much the show is appreciated. It is a fact this episode was liked, and liked a lot. When you see this fact, when you see that, as of now, there are currently 108 10s and 5 1s, it is preposterous to speak like this episode could have ever been cut, even as a hypothetical statement. It may be because I am old enough and a veteran of many internet debates, but seriously, if you are clearly in the minority act more like it. One should have superior arguments, not an air of superior morality or superior tastes as if you were still the winner even if didn't convince anyone. (Then again probably I can't blame people that much because the previous adaptation of Bake was somehow misleading) Quote:
If Nisio really wanted he could have cut a lot of scenes. He could have cut and sewed the plot, cut and sewed the plot, gradually simplifying things. But if you adopt that attitude, then there is no scene you can't cut. You need to know when to stop; if you have between your hands a good scene, sometimes you can go for it even if it's unnecessary to the plot. And then again 1) the heroine of the previous arc must be present at the beginning, that was the formula of the first season. Karen was a given 2) it's a bit like in the Simpsons, the story starts from a tangential issue and you can't foresee early the direction it will take. Not a big deal, really. |
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2012-02-26, 16:47 | Link #305 | ||
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Additionally, that SHAFT/Nishio dedicated an entire episode at this point to Koyomi's relationship with Karen is extremely reasonable given that this was the standard "aftermath/epilogue following a character arc". The beginning of Mayoi's arc focused on Hitagi; Mayoi was featured at the start of Kanbaru's; Kanbaru became a significant factor in Nadeko's; we began to understand Nadeko's true characterization when we moved to Tsubasa's arc. Karen herself showing somewhat rarely during her character arc, it is appropriate to use the introduction to Tsukihi's arc as an opportunity to showcase how Karen has changed and the new state of their relationship. Quote:
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2012-02-26, 16:51 | Link #306 |
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: California
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Wow, this thread certainly exploded in just one night.
Personally, I do not find it unreasonable for this episode to receive a low score, but I would not think one scene would warrant the entire episode to be voted as a one. Maybe it's because I take things as a holistic approach in watching episode, that I can still at find some redeeming elements in it. While, the toothbrush scene does entertain me to such levels I haven't experienced in a long time, it was the other details that truly made it deserve a ten for me. Considerations for the animation, the style, the execution, the dialogue, the new OP, and the VA really stood out for me after I re-watched it a couple more times. Shaft really outdid themselves this episode. The BGM that accompanied the toothbrush scene, especially, added the the overall presentation. For me, a one means the episode from the beginning to the end was terrible in all aspects.
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2012-02-26, 16:51 | Link #307 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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That really does make me feel that our difference in perspective may be insurmountable; it feels to me like we're talking about a different subject entirely. What I saw in this episode seems to be entirely different from what you saw (even having technically "seen" the same thing), so I guess it stands to reason that our perspective would differ. I can only leave it at that.
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2012-02-26, 17:10 | Link #309 | |||||
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That's debatable, but it's a long debate, so let's put it aside. Let's go with what you wrote here for argument's sake.
Even if "pretty much everything has been done already", some things have been done a lot more commonly and often than other things have. Using an element or idea that is very rarely exploited or referenced is a lot more interesting, in my opinion, than using the oldest and most tired anime tropes in the book. You know, if I had come into this thread and saw the usual spread of 10s, 9s, 8s, etc... for an Anime Suki episode thread, and read just the usual level of praise, I'd have thought nothing of it. But people back on the first few pages of this thread were talking about this episode as though it was the boldest and most daring thing ever (i.e. "outrageous", and similar terms, being thrown around a lot). It's no more bold or daring than an unusually well-produced Backstreet Boys CD, perhaps with some unusual artwork for the CD Jacket to be fair. Some experienced anime fans like Reckoner and I aren't offended, really, by the imouto fetish of anime. We're simply tired of it. It would now actually be more daring for anime to have a major brother and sister combo without romantic/sexual feelings for one another. Quote:
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2012-02-26, 17:27 | Link #311 | |||||
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Join Date: May 2009
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I believe up to that point, Araragi was telling the truth when he told Hitagi that he wasn't a siscon. A lolicon perhaps, but he did not see his sister as a target for sexual attraction. After that incident, the two became very close. Uncomfortably close for other people. The start of the episode also showed that Karen had changed some in her relationship with her brother. She was still brash and forceful, but for whatever reason, was looking to help him with something. That helping intent got sidetracked when he brought up Kanbaru, which brought up the toothbrush game, which drastically altered the dynamic between them. As an aside, I would have preferred to have some hot AraragixHitagi action instead of this, but Nisio Isin wrote this for himself, and SHAFT brilliantly animated it for themselves. It's another thing I find amusing in this discussion, the whole pandering to the audience. I think SHAFT knows their audience, but I really think they went over the top on adapting this because dammit, they WANT to draw hawt toothbrush action porn. Quote:
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2012-02-26, 17:34 | Link #312 | |||||
Stüldt Hĺjt!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: On the corner
Age: 34
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Is blood-related incest really so mainstream now that we are getting tired of it? Last anime I watched which dealt with it was Yosuga no Sora. Complexes are an another matter, but to actually act out those desires. We have seen incestuous couples before (OreImo, implied, and Black Lagoon with the twins etc.), but I'm not ready to dismiss it as a boring trope. Especially when this series is concerned. And a small disclaimer if it wasn't obvious: I'm not what you could call "an experienced fan". Only a couple of years under the belt etc. Quote:
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I pretty much agree what you wrote about getting tired of overused fetishes. But what else can I do, as a huge fan of this series, but to get excited when the main character and his sister are about to embark on an incestuous journey? This series has a lot of fans, so the constant circlejerking will no doubt prove tiring to read through, though. Reality checks (for the fans) are healthy!
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Last edited by zarqu; 2012-02-26 at 18:11. |
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2012-02-26, 18:02 | Link #313 | |||||
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Spoiler for Wide-ranging mild spoilers:
That's off the top of my head. I'm almost certainly forgetting some. Quote:
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2012-02-26, 18:03 | Link #314 |
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Suburban DC
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I'm too lazy and too jaded to go through this forum and all the criteria......
While fun it seemed like a sort of a wasted episode, that was a big Karen fanservice escapade, While I am uncomfortable with shameless fanservice in general the prospect of incest in this show, I do admit (grudgingly) that "the sequence" was "engaging" to me, despite my heavy conflict with it.... Other than that, not much else to the ep I am afraid. |
2012-02-26, 18:25 | Link #315 |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
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Blarg, Karen breaks my suspension of disbelief. I feel like I need a scene or two of her thoughts leading up to this. Then I'd be able to enjoy it better.
Right now it's too much of a character jump for me. Like Karen is suddenly channeling Nadeko. |
2012-02-26, 18:26 | Link #316 | |||||
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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In observing the writing and execution of this episode see how SHAFT/Nishio Ishin himself might have had fun writing/animating this part of the series? Can you see how, as an author, Nishio's enjoyment as he was writing it came not from the gratuitous/pornographic quality of the passages but rather the absurdity and outrageousness of the situation he was writing? Can you also see how, in SHAFT's choice of BGM and all the exaggerated effects in the animation (Araragi's sinister faces, etc.), the animators were utilizing great humour and creativity in adapting the scene for this audience? Could you then see how, as these intricately crafted markers of unexpected intensity mingled into the unpredictable eroticism, people were surprised and enjoyed this episode in the same spirit of lighthearted absurdity? SHAFT and Nishio's fun as author/creators was successfully translated through the anime across to a happily receptive audience. That is what these positive reactions and ratings represent. Would there really be any point in looking down on those experiences? Quote:
The point of the interactions this time, for their part, were also in the interactions themselves. The exaggerated humour and absurdity already justify Koyomi and Karen's adventures with a toothbrush. My point was moreso that, towards people who weren't able to find enjoyment in those scenes on that level, even so they shouldn't write off those scenes as unnecessary or irrelevant because they will have impacts on future developments. Quote:
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-02-26 at 18:52. |
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2012-02-26, 18:27 | Link #317 | ||
a random Indonesian otaku
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Xanadu
Age: 32
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honestly, this is more realistic than what's happening in previous episode... I don't believe that Araragi had sex with Hitagi that night but in this episode, somehow I believe they're doing more than brushing teeth after Tsukihi left 10/10.... what else.... I don't really support incest route but Karen is too adorable... so, if you help someone to solve their irregularities, they will fall on you... I wonder why Karen want to meet Kanbaru... don't tell me if she has a 'yuri' fetish too.... new technique acquired = toothbrush.... Last edited by ~Yami~; 2012-02-26 at 19:05. |
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2012-02-26, 18:37 | Link #318 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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Neither of them had any serious romantic intentions for the other until the toothbrush scene started. |
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2012-02-26, 18:48 | Link #319 | |
Awakened One
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Northern Italy
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I voted 10/10 because the toothbrush scene was one of the most erotic things I've ever watched, including many hentai. And it is original; I would have never thought of a toothbrush as an adult toy before.
That said, I shake my head at those who are trying to sugarcoat the scene as being a big joke. Everything in its presentation screamed eroticism, from Karen's moans to her faces, to the focus on her lips/tongue, to the camera panning all over her body, clad in a tightly fitting shirt that highlighted her breasts. Some parts of this episode were certainly meant for humour (e.g. Tsukihi's intervention) but for the most part it was a poorly disguised softcore porn. I also can't believe that some commenters are calling that scene "character development". People don't change their behaviour so fast and certainly not from some ridiculous pseudo-sexual intercourse. The dialogue between the Araragi siblings wasn't even witty, which could be said of the Shinobu bath scene. Nothing in their interaction could persuade me that their relationship has got better, except because "the plot demands it". If anything, after such a close encounter their relationship should become even more awkward. The afterword of the Karen Bee novel confirms that Nisio wrote this whole thing to please himself, in an almost amateurish manner, never thinking that it will be published. They're basically 500 pages of mental masturbation. Quote:
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2012-02-26, 18:50 | Link #320 | |||||
Stüldt Hĺjt!
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Age: 34
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By they way. In my mind I'm drawing a strict line between blood-related and non-blood-related incest. Blood-related being more interesting. It might be an unfair criteria, since adopted siblings can, and most likely do, develop psychological ties as strong as real siblings. The taboo is stronger with real siblings, I think, though. Quote:
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Last edited by zarqu; 2012-02-26 at 19:13. |
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