[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Captain Bluebeard]

Originally Posted by Kealym

Well, there are a number of hints in the VN regarding what Ange must have read. Kyrolf just makes the most sense, in context of Ange's reaction, and the manga gives even further suggestion.

But she wouldn't be so cool with her parents being murderers and just say 'hey, that truth was unnecessary for me, this whole fuss was stupid in the end'. It just doesn't connect, because if it were so, the truth would concern her, and she'd have every reason to be upset about nobody telling her all this time.

Yeah, there is the fact that she commited suicide right after reading it but

A) She possibly did it because the hope of somebody coming home was completely crushed. Ange doesn't have much to live for anyway, actually, she has nothing to live for, she is a bitter and gloomy person with absolutely no friends or people she can rely on. It doesn't sound like much of a stretch.

B) Personality death. Maybe she doesn't commit suicide at all.

And there's the manga, yes. I'm not sure how reliable the images the manga shows at that scene are (if this is what you are talking about, because there may be more hints that I'm unaware of as I haven't read it). It might be showing what Ange could have read.

If we go by the manga, the Prime truth is the EP7 Tea Party. Although I don't think anybody on this forum actually believes that the Kyrie Rudolf theory corresponds to the EP7 scenario, if we go by the manga images, it is pretty much what they suggest happened.

Then again there's also the scene with the goats when the Book of the Single Truth is opened, which I'm not sure how to refute, because it could very well be pointing to that direction. But Ange's comments on the truth certainly do not seem to suggest that she read her own parents were the ones who killed everybody.

FWIW, Ryu has made a tried and true strategy of laying his cards on the table very openly, to basically make you think "it's too obvious to be correct!". When it comes to Kyrolf culprit theory, he does this by giving Kyrie the most OOC motive logic we've ever seen from her, combined with it being presented by Bernkastel, who by that point we all know for sure is vindictive and bitchy and just kinda enjoys hurting people's feelings for shiggles.

Touché. I can't argue against that one, Ryukishi does this all the time.

BUT! Although it is possible that he did just that, wouldn't it be very stupid of him? I mean, he shows the truth (rather, something that is close to it) and then makes such a big deal out of it in EP8? Wouldn't EP8 be completely pointless if we (and Ange for that matter) already knew the truth? What, he regretted saying it after releasing EP7 and then tried to take it back in such a ridiculous manner to try and make a point of how unecessary the truth is?

Originally Posted by theforgot3n1

And the long story from "the confession" hints toward Yasu being the perpetrator quite bluntly. Feels rather difficult to insert George as a culprit there.

Well, it has been "clearly" stated that Yasu IS the culprit, but that is true only of the fictional stories. Her actual involvement in the crimes -if there were any- or anything else that may have happened is completely up to interpretation.

Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter

We know that Bern puts forward the idea that Kinzo had his way with her, but that's hardly certain. No, Will doesn't argue back so much as argue for forgiveness, but the only evidence given for this scenario is Bernkastel being a bitch and suggesting the possibility.

But where did Yasu come from in that case?

1: Rosa's narration never gives any hint of Kuwadorian Beatrice showing signs of recent pregnancy, nor any crying baby, nor anyone else at the guest house who might have been caring for the child. It's really hard for me to buy a new mother just leaving the kid behind when they run away, or her being so stupid as to not understand what's going on through an entire pregnancy.

Just being outside of a house (let alone a mansion) does not make you able to suddenly know whatever happens inside. There must certainly have been someone, but Rosa didn't meet them. And plus, we don't know how recent her pregnancy was, and on top of that, how could Rosa be able to tell that the woman she was speaking to (under such strange circumstances) had recently given birth?

I also think it is too far-fetched both for Kinzo to sexually abuse his own daughter and for her to just abandon her child like that, but well, there are many cases where women who are more mature and less oblivious of the world do that anyway.

[jjblue1]

About Kinzo:
More than a fantasy I'll say the Kinzo we see are the perceptions other people had of Kinzo. When interacting with Krauss Kinzo is violent because that's how Krauss saw/remembered him, when interacting with Genji and Nanjo Kinzo is friendly, when interacting with Natsuhi he acknowledges her because in Natsuhi's mind that's how Kinzo should have been and she believed it so much it became reality to her, when depicted by Battler Kinzo is a caring grandad/father because that's how he saw him (Battler always thinks the best about others).

So Kinzo doesn't come out as consistent because, as he doesn't exist anymore, he can be characterized only by the people who're supposed to interact with him/make him live again and as all of them have contrasting opinions on him, he came out as inconsistent.

About the culprit:

Well, I think the general idea is that Yasu is the killer on the gameboard but not in Prime.

About George:

While I don't think that George is the sole culprit on Prime I've always wondered if he actually did something. Ep 4 had him kill Jessica by mistake and Ep 6 implied he would be ready to fight to get Shannon if forced... so I don't think he would really set out a mass murder but that he might have ended up on doing something, maybe in an argument or by mistake (as he didn't mean to get that far) that ended up with someone's death.
George isn't painted as the one prone to get violent while in rage, that's more Jessica's role, but he surely has his own dark shades so it would make sense to me if he were less innocent than he attempted to look.

About Ange and Eva's diary:

I think the trick about the truth in the diary is that in the end if Ange doesn't like it, she can always deny it or reinterpret it as 'yes, it's true Kyrie shoot to Rosa, Eva and Hideyoshi but actually Kyrie did so because she was scared by Eva and Hideyoshi who just shoot Krauss and Natsuhi and by Rosa who seemed to act insane. Eva didn't witness what happened with the others so everything else is her own speculation so... who care's about Eva's diary?'

About the servants not tattling out what Kinzo did:
I fear that it all ties down to the mentality of the servants back then and to Kinzo's power. Kinzo was insanely powerful, powerful enough that when Tokyo wanted Rokkenjima back he could tell it to keep dreaming it. He could also cover up the death of the servant that fell with Lion with some hush money.

And Kumasawa is also letting herself be bribed by Krauss and Natsuhi into hiding Kinzo's death and by Yasu into taking part to a mistery game of which Krauss and Natsuhi knows nothing about.

So if it wasn't fear that Kinzo would simply hush things, sue her for diffamation and take from her all she had after firing her, it was likely because Kinzo handed her a generous tip. Which didn't push her to forgive him as a human being but... well, helped her to stay silent.
I don't really think Kumasawa was friend with Kinzo though, she just served him.

As for Nanjo... his 'friendship' with Kinzo started with Kinzo bribing him and roping him into hiding the presence of an Italian woman and some secret gold (and possibly of a massacre of Japanese and Italians) and he's also taking money from Krauss to hide his friend's death even though he knows this is illegal so... I wouldn't expect much from him... although his hunger for money might have been due to his sick grandaughter about which we hear only once and never again so... I don't know.

I agree that Kuwadorian Beatrice didn't seem a mother, although it's possible that when she turned back maybe she regretted leaving her baby behind. Honestly I still think that scene was portrayed poorly but we're told many times Beatrice was so naive she didn't even quite understood she'd been taken advantage of so maybe she didn't really understood she'd been turned into a mother. Maybe she thought all the time that was an odd sickness and no one corrected her and when the child had birth she was drugged so she didn't realize what really happened.

I agree that Genji's plan was AWFUL to say the least... but this can be explained in other ways.

Still, yes, Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo were poorly developed. In his great plan to make Umineko the mystery with the higher killing count (and possibly the higher number of characters) Ryukishi ended up developing poorly some of those characters.

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

But where did Yasu come from in that case?

Well, there's two basic ideas that could work in my mind.

Kinzo concluded that Beato's soul leapt to another child born at the moment of the body's death, so he went to Fukuin house and looked for a kid with the right age and approximate facial features. He believed that a child who inherited Beato's spirit could be found, and eventually came across one with the correct nose/eyes/whatever and the right age and said 'yep, it must be THIS one.'

The other one is Yasu is actually Rudolph's other kid in that Asumu/Kyrie/Rudolph triangle. There was no miscarriage, just Genji and Kinzo in a scheme to get an heir into Krauss's family that went horribly wrong due to Natsuhi's issues.

Neither one of those theories is perfect, per say, but then the presented incest theory isn't exactly rigorous either.

Just being outside of a house (let alone a mansion) does not make you able to suddenly know whatever happens inside. There must certainly have been someone, but Rosa didn't meet them. And plus, we don't know how recent her pregnancy was, and on top of that, how could Rosa be able to tell that the woman she was speaking to (under such strange circumstances) had recently given birth?

I also think it is too far-fetched both for Kinzo to sexually abuse his own daughter and for her to just abandon her child like that, but well, there are many cases where women who are more mature and less oblivious of the world do that anyway.

You'd expect some sort of mention though. Either 'We have to hurry before X notices I'm gone' or 'I'll just tell X I'm going out for a stroll.' or SOMETHING. The less Kuwadorian Beatrice knows about the child, the more it becomes necessary to have some other servant around at all times to make sure the child is being cared for. I know Rosa's not exactly wielding detective authority in the scene, but if it really is the case that there were other people in Kuwadorian at the time, you'd think there would be something. It's a devil's proof.

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

About the servants not tattling out what Kinzo did:
I fear that it all ties down to the mentality of the servants back then and to Kinzo's power. Kinzo was insanely powerful, powerful enough that when Tokyo wanted Rokkenjima back he could tell it to keep dreaming it. He could also cover up the death of the servant that fell with Lion with some hush money.

No, that wasn't covered up at all. The fact that she was carrying a child in her arms and that Natsuhi may have pushed were the only things covered up, and really it doesn't take anything at all to cover those up because who's going to suspect that she might have been collateral damage to attempted murder of an illegitimate heir that doesn't legally exist?

And Kumasawa is also letting herself be bribed by Krauss and Natsuhi into hiding Kinzo's death and by Yasu into taking part to a mistery game of which Krauss and Natsuhi knows nothing about.

Those are a HELL of a lot lesser things to cover up than child abuse and pedophilia. I mean it's not like she believes they killed Kinzo (she was there for Kinzo's 'I'm forgiven, Urkh heart attack!' bit after all) or that Yasu is seriously going to kill anyone. I get the impression that at that point, they're staying quiet out of loyalty to Yasu who doesn't want to disrupt the status quo more than any direct obedience of Krauss/Natsuhi.

So if it wasn't fear that Kinzo would simply hush things, sue her for diffamation and take from her all she had after firing her, it was likely because Kinzo handed her a generous tip. Which didn't push her to forgive him as a human being but... well, helped her to stay silent.
I don't really think Kumasawa was friend with Kinzo though, she just served him.

All she would need to do is smuggle Kuwadorian-Beatrice off the island around month 6 or 7 of pregnancy when she is really showing. The woman with the bulge in her belly would be proof enough of everything. It would be really hard to cry defamation with physical evidence and the person in question there to testify.

As for Nanjo... his 'friendship' with Kinzo started with Kinzo bribing him and roping him into hiding the presence of an Italian woman and some secret gold (and possibly of a massacre of Japanese and Italians) and he's also taking money from Krauss to hide his friend's death even though he knows this is illegal so... I wouldn't expect much from him... although his hunger for money might have been due to his sick grandaughter about which we hear only once and never again so... I don't know.

I seem to remember in Ep 7 they mentioned that Kinzo took a fondness to Nanjo because he did NOT take a bribe about that, and Kinzo thought he always dealt fairly with him and never extorted him for money.

I agree that Kuwadorian Beatrice didn't seem a mother, although it's possible that when she turned back maybe she regretted leaving her baby behind. Honestly I still think that scene was portrayed poorly but we're told many times Beatrice was so naive she didn't even quite understood she'd been taken advantage of so maybe she didn't really understood she'd been turned into a mother. Maybe she thought all the time that was an odd sickness and no one corrected her and when the child had birth she was drugged so she didn't realize what really happened.

Maybe there were small bombs in her brain that removed specific memories? I mean that's the level of thing we're talking about here with suggesting an incestuous (statutory?) rape, pregnancy and birth not even registering on a girl's character and leaving her as a completely naive gullible child. I can't prove it's false but I mean... seriously???

I agree that Genji's plan was AWFUL to say the least... but this can be explained in other ways.

Still, yes, Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo were poorly developed. In his great plan to make Umineko the mystery with the higher killing count (and possibly the higher number of characters) Ryukishi ended up developing poorly some of those characters.

On the flip side, perhaps the lack of a strong characterized motive for them to do something is a clue that they didn't do it? And meanwhile, Bern has 'I'm a vengeful villainous bitch lol' as an established motive for planting scandalous suggestions and accusations.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

After Ange reads the Single Truth she has that dialogue with Battler where they say 'See? The truth wasn't anything important' 'Yeah, I didn't need to know that'. They wouldn't say that if their parents were the ones who killed everybody.

You've seen the manga depiction of the Book of One Truth, right (I'm having trouble finding the link right now)? That pretty explicitly states that something very like the episode 7 Tea Party is what Eva put in her diary. Ange said it wasn't really anything important because she finally understood Battler's message about magic (note that she flips the fuck out and starts killing people in the other ending where she doesn't)

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

And also, I think it would be at least stupid on Ryukishi's part to show a detailed scenario that is this close to the truth (such as Kyrie and Rudolf murdering everyone, regardless of certain well.... holes that had) and then making all this fuss about the Single Truth in EP8. I mean, what's the point? Did he just change his mind about revealing the truth and made a clumsy attempt to take it back after having already shown it?

I think the episode 7 Tea Party was the reveal, and episode 8 was about Ange's attempts to come to terms with it (including, at first, denying it was true at all) and perhaps understand the real "truth" behind the series of events that Eva saw. No other credible explanation of the Rokkenjima event is ever given and I think the denial of the E7TP/BoOT is largely wishful thinking.

Note that the episode 7 tea party being largely true goes some way to explaining what the heck was happening in Alliance - it was basically the truth from Battler's perspective, but with a few distorted memories (Krauss being alive instead of Rudolf, some of the locations confused) and some of the gaps filled by incorrect inferences (Battler probably thought Yasu was the culprit due to the message bottles, and therefore assumed that Yasu was taking the adults hostage - in fact the opposite was the case).

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter

No, that wasn't covered up at all. The fact that she was carrying a child in her arms and that Natsuhi may have pushed were the only things covered up, and really it doesn't take anything at all to cover those up because who's going to suspect that she might have been collateral damage to attempted murder of an illegitimate heir that doesn't legally exist?

Natsuhi said the family of the servant was compensated. Unless Japanese laws are pretty different from how are here, if the servant wandered on her own and fell on her own there was no need to compensate her. Other servants must have been aware a baby existed and that had been entrusted to that servant but they never whispered a word about it with the police.
So maybe I expressed myself poorly but what I meant to say was that the Ushiromiya managed to cover up details about her dead and probably stalled any further investigation from the husband by handling him money.

Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter

Those are a HELL of a lot lesser things to cover up than child abuse and pedophilia. I mean it's not like she believes they killed Kinzo (she was there for Kinzo's 'I'm forgiven, Urkh heart attack!' bit after all) or that Yasu is seriously going to kill anyone. I get the impression that at that point, they're staying quiet out of loyalty to Yasu who doesn't want to disrupt the status quo more than any direct obedience of Krauss/Natsuhi.

Wait, Kuwadorian Beatrice is as naive as a child but she's not a child. She's an adult when Kinzo goes after her. When she was a child he let her be. It's when she grew and looked like her mother he ended up jumping on her.
And he likely didn't quite jumped on her while she was screaming and kicking but more probably twisted her mind into taking part to an act while she had no idea what he really was doing to her.
And while he definitely took advantage of her, at least in my books, as she apparently didn't tell him 'no', I fear it would be rather difficult to prove the lack of consent.

Being bribed into hiding Kinzo's death so Krauss can continue his embezzlement and stop the inheritance from being distributed for more than 7 years (Kinzo died in 1984. By 1986 they hadn't declared him dead yet and won't declare him dead but disappeared so as to avoid autopsy which means, if they'll declare he disappeared in 1987 he'll be considered dead only in 1994) is instead a definite crime. If the siblings had managed to get the police to investigate and find the long dead body of Kinzo they would have all gone to jail.

So it's not like they weren't doing anything bad.

Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter

All she would need to do is smuggle Kuwadorian-Beatrice off the island around month 6 or 7 of pregnancy when she is really showing. The woman with the bulge in her belly would be proof enough of everything. It would be really hard to cry defamation with physical evidence and the person in question there to testify.

Would it be possible to drag Beatrice out of Kuwadorian and put her on a ship?
Would Beatrice testify it?
Would Kinzo not manage to buy police and lawyers?
Would Beatrice's word be considered trustworthy or would she be waved off as the word of a woman who seduced Kinzo and then claimed rape in hope to get money out of it?

Even in modern time, with you going immediately to the police and to the hospital and against a lot less powerful people is hellish hard to prove you were raped and many women doesn't feel up to tell the police. In 1967 I fear it would be even more difficult. So, realistically speaking, I see it as a rather hard thing to do.

Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter

I seem to remember in Ep 7 they mentioned that Kinzo took a fondness to Nanjo because he did NOT take a bribe about that, and Kinzo thought he always dealt fairly with him and never extorted him for money.

Ep 7 is a bit blurry about it actually.
Kinzo went to Nanjo, asked for his help claiming it was a military operation, promised he would be paid later and handed him a golden ingot as collateral and Nanjo admitted although he was worried, the gold tempted him.

Later on he came, get back Beatrice and the ingot and paid Nanjo back with real money. Nanjo said he gave him back his charge... which might mean money but also that Nanjo kept on working for him if the charge wasn't given back in money, for example by helping Beatrice to deliver her baby in secrecy.

Nanjo said Kinzo was extremely grateful to Nanjo for keeping his secret and concealing Beatrice and it's Lion who assumed Nanjo did it all for free causing Kinzo to like him because he wasn't a greedy liar... considering we know Nanjo was a liar Lion might have been wrong on the greedy part as well, though probably Nanjo wasn't overly greedy as he never became rich, not even when Krauss was bribing him, he was just willing to take some extra money.

Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter

Maybe there were small bombs in her brain that removed specific memories? I mean that's the level of thing we're talking about here with suggesting an incestuous (statutory?) rape, pregnancy and birth not even registering on a girl's character and leaving her as a completely naive gullible child. I can't prove it's false but I mean... seriously???

If you don't know what sex is, what being pregnant is, that Kinzo is your father (Kinzo denied it and Beatrice didn't know in fact she only saw him as such but had no idea he was) and so on and someone feeds you lies like that he's doing a magical ritual and that if you love him you'll let him and you're prone to obey to all his requests you won't be so capable to describe what had happened to you.
You might not even be capable to tell he touched you in an inappropriate manner because you don't know the difference between appropriate and inappropriate. You won't like it, you might hate it but you won't be able to tell he had no right to do it. Ep 7 says Beatrice talked about it with other people but she didn't understand what had been done to her and the others didn't want to explain.

So it's not really 'forgetting' is just not understanding what happened.
The best she understood is that something was 'wrong, seriously wrong', but Rosa herself described Beatrice as a person that missed some basic definitions of matters in life.

Did she even know how reproduction work? Which could be the consequences of having sex? What babies are? We don't even know if they taught her to read, she never heard of zoo, she can't realize she's unhappy, she believes in magic, she thinks she has the soul of Beatrice sealed inside her.
What if she thought the baby was really an homunculus and not her child?

Beatrice's situation is hard to judge because she was raised without the basic knowledge we have so we can't really tell how much she could understand. Not much if Ep 7 is to be believed.

Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter

On the flip side, perhaps the lack of a strong characterized motive for them to do something is a clue that they didn't do it? And meanwhile, Bern has 'I'm a vengeful villainous bitch lol' as an established motive for planting scandalous suggestions and accusations.

The whole story of what they did came from Clair's narration, not from Bern's.
What they miss is a strong characterization, not just a strong characterized motive. They're left in the background as small secondary characters but after all we aren't called to investigate over their crimes and understand their hearts, just the effects their actions had on Yasu.
There's plenty of things that it would have been good to see addressed in Umineko and weren't, likely because not judged that important.

Honestly I wouldn't absolve them from their crimes just because Umineko didn't dwell much on them but you're free to create another theory in which they're innocent.

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I think the episode 7 Tea Party was the reveal, and episode 8 was about Ange's attempts to come to terms with it (including, at first, denying it was true at all) and perhaps understand the real "truth" behind the series of events that Eva saw. No other credible explanation of the Rokkenjima event is ever given and I think the denial of the E7TP/BoOT is largely wishful thinking.

Note that the episode 7 tea party being true goes some way to explaining what the heck was happening in Alliance - it was basically the truth from Battler's perspective, but with a few distorted memories (Krauss being alive instead of Rudolf, some of the locations confused) and some of the gaps filled by incorrect inferences (Battler probably thought Yasu was the culprit due to the message bottles, and therefore assumed that Yasu was taking the adults hostage - in fact the opposite was the case).

I mostly agree. I think at best we can assume that it was speculation what Eva didn't directly saw (the murder of George, Jessica and Co) and that the narrative in Ep 7 might have been a bit biased toward Eva (maybe it wasn't an accident but she shoot on purpose) but on the general line what Ep 7 said was true.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter

Maybe there were small bombs in her brain that removed specific memories? I mean that's the level of thing we're talking about here with suggesting an incestuous (statutory?) rape, pregnancy and birth not even registering on a girl's character and leaving her as a completely naive gullible child. I can't prove it's false but I mean... seriously???

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Ep 7 says Beatrice talked about it with other people but she didn't understand what had been done to her and the others didn't want to explain.

So it's not really 'forgetting' is just not understanding what happened.
The best she understood is that something was 'wrong, seriously wrong', but Rosa herself described Beatrice as a person that missed some basic definitions of matters in life.

I think it's not that strange that Beatrice could remain generally gullible/naive and lacking in the details of understanding about her situation even after assault and childbirth (though of course, we can't prove she ever actually had a kid and that Yasu was hers). It's not as if those events would be able to communicate all the information that she's lacking, especially if the people she trusts are deceiving her or unwilling to explain. She doesn't have a lot of points of comparison. And in any case assault isn't something that automatically, fundamentally changes the way a person presents themself to others. It's not going to teach her the information she needs about the non-existence of the wolves outside Kuwadorian, for example.

Though Beatrice wasn't a child, the level of information she had available to her about things such as sexual assault may have been as bad or worse than that of a child. It's not unheard of for children who are abused, with their lack of information about the topic, to not fully understand what's happening to them and to not realise that this it is something properly informed people would consider dreadful abuse, especially if the person abusing them is someone they love and trust.

Golden Bug-Hunter, what do you think would have been a realistic mark for the abuse Beatrice suffered to have left upon her character and been communicated to Rosa during the short time they knew each other?

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Golden Bug-Hunter, what do you think would have been a realistic mark for the abuse Beatrice suffered to have left upon her character and been communicated to Rosa during the short time they knew each other?

I think that if there was truth to the pregnancy theories, she should have been a lot less trusting either in general because of weird shit that happened recently, or of Rosa in particular when she started contradicting things that Kinzo and other visitors told her.

If we're to accept that she had complete faith in Kinzo et all to the point of going through pregnancy and child birth without ever understanding what is actually happening to her, and then Rosa comes traipsing along and says 'Nope, Daddy-Lover-Kinzo lied to you. There are no wolves in the forest' there should be either an angry emotional reaction directed at Kinzo for deceiving her 'What else is that lying scum bag deceiving me about? Maybe this person knows about that weird sickness I had where I felt that thing kicking around inside me. Was that NOT a pixie??!!!', or a 'No way. I trust Daddy completely. USO DA!' moment. The fact that neither of those happened kind of puts a cap on how much blind faith in Kinzo's word I'm prepared to ascribe to her.

But most of all, let's say it was possible for Kinzo to take her through an entire pregnancy without her realizing it. Nanjo, Kumasawa, Genji, they all go along with 'She can never know she's with child. If you tell her, I'll cut you, and if you don't I"ll make you rich.'. Why? Why would anyone do that, even if it was possible? What possible motive would a Kinzo that loves his Beato in ANY way have for doing it like that? Was he already senile? Did he see the future and not want the reader to learn about his incest during Ep 3? The who-dunnit is a conspiracy, the how-dunnit is sketchy, and the why-dunnit is... Rokkenjima Syndrome?!

[Captain Bluebeard]

Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter

Neither one of those theories is perfect, per say, but then the presented incest theory isn't exactly rigorous either.

Yeah, but it is canon. The inconsistencies derive from the bad characterization of Kuwadorian Beatrice, which can be justified, because we were still in EP3, it would be risky to communicate more about her situation and psychosynthesis, it might give away too much. It may have been a good idea to adress it at some point, but I assume it would be difficult to find a proper place for that.

You'd expect some sort of mention though. Either 'We have to hurry before X notices I'm gone' or 'I'll just tell X I'm going out for a stroll.' or SOMETHING.

She was planning to escape so it's pretty natural that she wouldn't tell anybody. I don't think they would let her take a stroll anyway, considering the fence and the whole 'wolves' story.

The less Kuwadorian Beatrice knows about the child, the more it becomes necessary to have some other servant around at all times to make sure the child is being cared for. I know Rosa's not exactly wielding detective authority in the scene, but if it really is the case that there were other people in Kuwadorian at the time, you'd think there would be something. It's a devil's proof.

In that case I have proof for it, because they did exist in the first scene of EP3. Kumasawa (Virgilia, to be percise, but it's the same thing) and various other female servants were there, so I think it would be safe to assume that aside from Kinzo's trusted servants, Kuwadorian must have been equiped with a heavily bribed personnel.

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

You've seen the manga depiction of the Book of One Truth, right (I'm having trouble finding the link right now)? That pretty explicitly states that something very like the episode 7 Tea Party is what Eva put in her diary. Ange said it wasn't really anything important because she finally understood Battler's message about magic (note that she flips the fuck out and starts killing people in the other ending where she doesn't)

I'm not really sure if Ryukishi would decide to give away Rokenjima Prime in the manga depiction, to be honest, because that would send EP8's entire message to hell. Plus what about Bernkastel? Why set up this entire charade of showing it to Ange and then make her search for the Book of Truth, when there is also the 'word trick' of her red truth, which was clearly intentional? It just doesn't connect very well.... She could very well tell her the whole thing in red one more time and get it over with. (Plus Bernkastel clearly says "Oh, no that wasn't the truth", which well... sort of means it wasn't)

Granted, a theory like that would make sense, if you are willing to forcibly connect certain points, but it does invite very very shitty writing and is clearly a huge disappointment. And very unimaginative, which I don't think Ryukishi is.

Also, Ange specifically says: "It turned out worse than Pandora's box. A truth I didn't need to know flew out of the box, along with all my hopes." You don't expect to hear that of a person who has just learned that her parents were brutal murderers and her mom never loved her. It is always implied that the truth was of no concnern to Ange. If her parents were murderers, it would concern her, and she would deserve to know, and she would have every right to be upset. The fact that she immediately forgives Eva (who was the one who started it all in EP7) and does not seem to be resentful at all towards her parents does not suggest she read Bernkastel's EP7.

I think the episode 7 Tea Party was the reveal, and episode 8 was about Ange's attempts to come to terms with it (including, at first, denying it was true at all) and perhaps understand the real "truth" behind the series of events that Eva saw. No other credible explanation of the Rokkenjima event is ever given and I think the denial of the E7TP/BoOT is largely wishful thinking.

Credible? You want to call the EP7 scenario credible? Because it isn't. Kyrie is fucking retarted in EP7! Why go to all the trouble of murdering everyone, when they'll die from the explosion? She could just sit around in Kuwadorian drinking coffe or something.

So, let's agree it is the only explanation of the Rokenjima event, (let's leave credible out, well, nothing in Umineko really is but anyway) but there is nothing in EP8 suggesting that it was intended for one to be given in the first place. Why make the real truth such a huge plot point when Ange already knows it, and it has been confirmed with the red truth as well? Isn't that a very stupid excuse to make an 8th episode?

By the way, my memory is failing me, so how does EP7 end with Battler surviving?

[AuraTwilight]

By the way, my memory is failing me, so how does EP7 end with Battler surviving?

He kind of vanishes after a point and his fate is never addressed.

[theforgot3n1]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

He kind of vanishes after a point and his fate is never addressed.

Wasn't he shot by Rudolf?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I think the episode 7 Tea Party was the reveal, and episode 8 was about Ange's attempts to come to terms with it (including, at first, denying it was true at all) and perhaps understand the real "truth" behind the series of events that Eva saw. No other credible explanation of the Rokkenjima event is ever given and I think the denial of the E7TP/BoOT is largely wishful thinking.

If it's true though, then Eva's interpretation is missing massive amounts of necessary information, because Kyrie's actions appear to make no sense whatsoever based on existing characterization. So either that was right and Eva missed something or that was wrong and surprise, Kyrie was a psychopath all along and every other author just missed that part except Eva who got to witness it. Neither of these is a very satisfying point, especially since the ep7 TP covers events Eva could not have witnessed (and, if her diary is honest, did not witness; she'd only be able to infer that Kyrie murdered Jessica and Gohda for example).

"I think Kyrie and Rudolf did it" from Eva's POV makes sense, but "they did it for the reasons portrayed" doesn't. It's entirely possible they did do it, or that they didn't and Kyrie wanted Eva to think they did, but Eva (and thus anyone reading her diary) couldn't distinguish between the two because Eva clearly believed a certain notion.

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

Note that the episode 7 tea party being largely true goes some way to explaining what the heck was happening in Alliance - it was basically the truth from Battler's perspective, but with a few distorted memories (Krauss being alive instead of Rudolf, some of the locations confused) and some of the gaps filled by incorrect inferences (Battler probably thought Yasu was the culprit due to the message bottles, and therefore assumed that Yasu was taking the adults hostage - in fact the opposite was the case).

NOTE: Consider all the following a thought experiment derived from Leafsnail's suggestion regarding Alliance being a Battler POV mirror of the ep7 Tea Party. I'll make a few leaps here that only make sense if viewed in that light, so I'm not sure they necessarily prove anything taken separately.

Is it possible Battler's interpretation is actually closer to the truth, to a certain extent? That is, Kyrie was the culprit (for motive x) but people didn't die in the order that was expected? That would explain something like Rudolf dying, if a shootout or other such incident didn't go according to plan (and as we see in the ep7 TP, things don't go to plan for Rudolf specifically).

It's clear there is some intended Rudolf/Kyrie factor starting in the stories not written by Yasu. Note that both are FT'd in ep1 and ep2 and have no further impact on the story, but that isn't the case at all in ep3 and ep4. Arguably, one could say that ep3 is also the first point where the plan does not work flawlessly, as Legend and particularly Turn are essentially 100% Beatrice victories with no one interfering with the plan at all (except Kanon in ep1, and well...).

In ep3, there's the issue with Kyrie's motives being questioned, the only time in the entire series that a witch starts throwing red around about a character's mental state. It goes over what Kyrie wouldn't have done, which Eva-Beatrice is trying to use to make Battler think the situation involved a witch when the obvious conclusion we draw is simply that Kyrie had a different motivation. It's possible they were trying to do something, or thought Hidyeoshi was an accomplice, or something to that effect; however, it seems that Yasu still wins decisively here (although depending upon how the shootout is viewed and whether you think the FT was faked by more than just Yasu, perhaps Hideyoshi wasn't the only victim). As a result, the ending of the game does not go off track.

Such is not the case in ep4. There seems to be a game element going on, as it appears very unlikely that everyone would just collaborate on some of these matters and the human Beatrice appears to Battler. However, something clearly went off the rails at some point, and the result is either a failure for Yasu or a very narrow tie (that is, she managed to stop Kyrie but to such a bare extent that she felt she had to kill herself afterward because she hadn't saved anyone else). Kyrie's cryptic phone call would have to be read in the context of that, to figure out what she was conveying to Battler.

Of course the events of Alliance can't quite mesh perfectly because Eva dies in it, but that doesn't mean the events of the ep7 TP necessarily mesh perfectly either because Eva lives. The fact that Eva has no idea what happened to Battler in ep7 as far as the TP shows is odd, particularly in light of ep8. There's also the question of whether Yasu was alive on the 6th or if that was symbolic, but neither ep4 nor ep7 seem to give her much chance of living that long. So I think, if anything, the truth can be argued to be something like this:

• From Eva's perspective, the riddle was solved and something happened with "Beatrice" and the adults. People died; Eva may or may not be credible with respect to people's motivations at this time, especially her own, but in hindsight she regrets the sequence of events. She later awakens and goes on to discover a bunch of people who weren't among the first group dead, other than Rudolf and Kyrie. She infers that they were responsible, and Kyrie mysteriously goes so far as to confirm all of her suspicions and guilt-trip Eva into caring for her daughter before Eva kills her.
• From Battler's perspective, some kind of weird game happens and the cousins get bizarre phone calls that gradually call them out one by one. Kyrie calls him with a very strange message while apparently dying. Battler eventually goes out himself and meets the human Beatrice, but he can't understand what she wants and she disappears. He then gets into the mansion mere minutes later and finds bodies everywhere and no clear source for them.
• Battler and Eva meet up at some point. I think there is a confrontation similar to the end of ep3, but Eva either doesn't shoot Battler or does, thinks she's killed him, and flees but Battler is still alive. If there isn't a confrontation or if the confrontation is defused, Battler and Eva quickly realize that neither is the culprit and try to make sense of what happened. Unable to figure things out, they resolve to leave together and to cover up the specifics of the truth to some extent.
• Something happens. Battler and Eva are separated in some manner. If Eva didn't shoot Battler then I have no good explanation as to why, other than maybe Battler finding an injured Yasu and basically deciding to commit suicide with her. Eva agrees not to write anything about Battler in the diary, or else the shooting scenario plays out and she chooses not to write anything about Battler out of guilt. Either way a big hole is left in the narrative specifically for Battler's fate to be hidden in. Battler probably wasn't intending to exploit this, but ended up accidentally doing so by losing his memory (alternatively, Eva did write about shooting Battler, and this part was simply not shown in the ep7 Tea Party).

This might also lend some explanation for details in the ep7 TP that Eva couldn't have witnessed, if it was a sequence of events that she and Battler inferred based on what they observed. Since both appear to have admitted (if we take ep4's narrative as Battler's POV) that they didn't actually see any of the murders take place, we don't necessarily know that it was Kyrie's "herp derp gonna shoot everybody even though I have no good reason to" logic at work. That could just be the only reason Battler and Eva could think of, because they didn't know what Kyrie's actual motivation was.

However, if we presume that Kyrie's phone call and Kyrie's conversation with Eva were both true, then we're given a much too complex portrayal of her to believe that she would just go off on everyone out of some cavalier desire to make money that she'd probably never be able to spend. She's distinctly cryptic to Battler, but Battler guesses that she's trying to tell him something. Likewise, her emotional manipulation of Eva into feeling sympathy for Ange is way too calculating for a spree killing sociopath. Kyrie wanted Eva to believe she was the culprit and that she did so out of a bloodthirsty greed; we don't know if that's because Kyrie wasn't the culprit but wanted Eva to think she was, or because Kyrie was the culprit and didn't feel like explaining her motives to Eva because they were simply too complex for Eva to comprehend. Kyrie also wanted Battler to get something out of her phone message.

Note that earlier she says...

"Sounds like he's more than up for the challenge. .....Alright, Battler-kun. There's no need to hold back. .........You are Rudolf's son. ......No, you are my son. Show me something I won't be embarrassed to brag about. .........I entrust everything to you."

"Understood, Mom. ........Leave the rest to me...!"

"........All of us here have lost the right to inherit the position of head. ......Now we're just the same as pieces taken off the chessboard looking on from the outside. So you'll have to fight by yourselves."

"...............Kyrie-san........"

The nuance of those words meant........

"We've already given up. So you can forget about us".

....But, ....for that very reason, I won't give up......

And then later the actual call:

Spoiler:

"......Listen, Battler-kun. I'm going to tell you everything exactly as I saw it. ...I'm sure you'll think there's something wrong with my head. ......Yes, it's alright if you think that. Even I still haven't sorted out what it was I saw. .........Today. After you all returned to the guesthouse, the family conference began in the dining hall, ......and I'll tell you everything that happened next. Listen until the end without butting in. ............The call might be suddenly cut off partway through. If it does, at that time, I'll be dead."

".........Kyrie......san......"

Then, Kyrie spoke, .........about Kinzo coming, and the family conference starting, ......about the six being killed, and the five of them being confined... ......About how she had escaped somehow, and ran away to where she was now, and how everyone had finally been killed...all spoken dispassionately, with no dramatization. ......She even spoke about how everyone except her had been killed, and how she had observed the moments of all their deaths, ......and how even now, someone was trying to kill her.

"............Actually, even while we've been talking, ...I've been attacked three times. Something like a strange gold thread keeps flying in through the keyhole, spinning around and aiming for me. First it was by my feet. ......Next, it was close to my shoulders. ......Just now, it grazed my ear. ......Its aim is getting more and more accurate. Looks like it'll go right between my eyes pretty soon......"

"R, run, Kyrie-san...!! Run awaaaaaaaaaaay!!!"

"Where to? ......I've, ...run this far, ......shut myself into a room, and even locked the door, right......? .........Now that I'm still being pursued, .........just where should I hide, ......hey......"

"Ky......ri...e, ......san.........”

“Hey, Battler-kun... Are Jessica-chan and George-kun, ......still alive?”

“..................Just now, ...there was a phone call from Jessica............It kinda, ......sounded like they were...done for......”

“.........Thought so. ......Yeah, when we were being killed one after another, I had a kind of premonition. I thought that perhaps the second twilight had been finished in the ceremony of killing 13 people, and that even our twilights had been reached. .........In short, when I die, that's 13 people. This way, the ceremony is complete. ......The Golden Witch, Beatrice, will resurrect. .........I wonder what in the world will happen. ......On this island filled with demons and witches, and swarming with goat monsters, ......I wonder just what will happen, ......when even the leader of them all, the Golden Witch, appears.........By now, I don't, .........have a clue what's going on anymore.”

Kyrie-san's voice, ......had completely given up on her own life. Because Battler understood that, ......he couldn't stop the tears......

“......There's just one thing...I can advise you on.”

“What...?”

“.........Even if a demon or a witch does appear...”

“Yeah...”

“There's no need whatsoever to doubt what its true form is. ......Understand that it's what it seems.”

“.....................”

“You might think that there should be some trick, or that there's some true nature behind it. ......If you have the time to think of something like that, ......it would be much more constructive to think of how not to damage the mood of whatever you're facing. ......Even mistakenly, ....you must not say 'In that case, try showing me magic'.........Because to prove that, they will probably use an even more cruel way than before, ......to show you.”

“......I can't, ......believe it............Even if I hear, ......something like that coming from your mouth, ......I can't believe it.........”

“I understand. I understand why you can't believe. ......So, that's why I can give this advice. ......Believe・・・・.”

“.........You're telling me to believe in Beatrice...and demons and witches and monsters......?”

“Probably, ......even after being clearly shown so many things not of this world, ......we probably still weren't able to believe any of it, I think. I'm still like that now. ......The true form of this thing that keeps attacking me, trying to shoot through my forehead, ......is something I don't understand, .........and I can't believe it. So, ......I want you alone to believe, to understand, .........to accept the existence, ......of that which we couldn't accept. If you do that for me, our deaths won't be wasted. .........It'll also have been worth it for me to make this phone call.........Ah...!”

“K, Kyrie-san?!?!”

“......I'm still okay. It scratched, but it missed again. ......It looks like, .........I probably won't get another chance. .........Thank you. And goodbye, Battler-kun. I was once cold towards you because you were Asumu-san's son. ......Forgive me...for that day.”

“What do you mean, forgive you? Right now, you ARE a mother to me, Kyrie-san!!”

I felt as though I heard an incredible sound at the other end of the receiver. And then, a noisy clacking sound. ......As though the receiver had fallen to the floor.

“Kyrie-san?!?! Kyrie-san!!! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!”

.........Kyrie-san did not.........answer through the phone.........again.........

Now, for the sake of argument, assume the following things are true: Kyrie was the culprit (or at least wanted to be seen as such), and Kyrie did make this call to Battler. What does what she's saying mean? What is she advising Battler to actually do, and why?

[Captain Bluebeard]

It is interesting how the text is suspiciously vague on Kyrie's narration. Did she actually stick to that ridiculous fantasy crap, or did she honestly tell Battler what happened?

She even spoke about how everyone except her had been killed, and how she had observed the moments of all their deaths, ......and how even now, someone was trying to kill her.

This bit is especially suspicious. So, did she tell him exactly what happened, or use this vague wording to avoid giving too much info?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

It is interesting how the text is suspiciously vague on Kyrie's narration. Did she actually stick to that ridiculous fantasy crap, or did she honestly tell Battler what happened?

I assume she mentioned the fantasy narrative because Battler brings it up in talking with her later in the conversation. I don't think he'd be able to stay sympathetic to her if she was like "Oh yeah BTW I shot a bunch of people" or "Oh yeah it was <x> who really murdered everyone but ya know how it is."

More interesting I think is this part:

“There's no need whatsoever to doubt what its true form is. ......Understand that it's what it seems.”

“.....................”

“You might think that there should be some trick, or that there's some true nature behind it. ......If you have the time to think of something like that, ......it would be much more constructive to think of how not to damage the mood of whatever you're facing. ......Even mistakenly, ....you must not say 'In that case, try showing me magic'.........Because to prove that, they will probably use an even more cruel way than before, ......to show you.”

Battler interprets this as "if you see witches and magic, don't doubt it" because that's what they were just talking about, but taking a different approach to "magic" one could perhaps summarize the statement along the lines of:

"If you see someone who appears to be the culprit, don't question that they are. If you ask them to explain themselves they might tell you something you didn't want to hear."

Cynically, was Kyrie trying to manipulate Battler into calling Eva out as the murderer, or was she trying to get him to do exactly the opposite? You could sort of read it both ways, depending upon how you think Battler would take things to seem. Whether he actually followed her advice would be another matter entirely, as we know Battler is always the sort to question this kind of thing. The other question would be whether Kyrie knew Battler was going to meet Beatrice. In the "ep4 is Battler's POV of something like ep7" reading she shouldn't though.

[jjblue1]

About <b>Kuwadorian Beatrice</b>:
Beatrice is more surprised and curious that angry that there are no wolves. To her it's good news but it's also confusing as everyone else told her there were, not just Kinzo.
Her reaction is rather similar to the one of a child who is presented a huge cake and then is told that, contrary to what his parents said, if he'll eat it whole he won't get stomach ache. He'll be more interested in eating the cake than in getting angry with his parents for the lies.

We're told many and many times in his mind Kinzo didn't see Beatrice as a daughter once she's old enough to look like Beatrice Castiglioni, but as her mother's reincarnation. Ergo making love with her should have felt 'natural' to him. He didn't mean to rape her or force her, just to rebuilt with her the relation he had with 'her previous self'.

The fact that the servants did nothing is disgusting but not so surprising. Even in modern times there's people who turn their eyes away from abuse. For servants back then it should have felt even more normal not to nose into their master's business with Beatrice.

After all think at how Maria is abused and neglected by Rosa and everyone turns his gaze away. Even social services in the end left Maria in Rosa's care and they had evidence that Rosa abandoned on her own a child.

Servants from Kuwadorian were also already getting extra paid for keeping Kuwadorian and Beatrice's existence as a secret and to keep Beatrice ignorant... which I guess is a hint people working in Kuwadorian was also selected to be loyal to Kinzo and that they had no really moral problems in keeping a person ignorant, hidden and secluded on in a house and lie to her continuously about wolves and who know what else. I wouldn't really expect them to help.

About Prime's truth:
As Ange knows it I don't see any harm in letting us know it as well.
My only guess is that it's not exactly the same as Ep 7 Teaparty's truth but likely resembles it in the same was as Ep 4 resembles it.

For Ep 7 Teaparty to be fully true you need to collect the tales of at least 5 people:
Battler for the chat in the cousins' room and his own feelings
Shannon (or George) for the meeting they had before everything went downhill
Eva for what happened after she woke up in the golden room and her own thoughts
Rudolf for what happened with George and his own thoughts
Kyrie for what happened with Jessica and her own thoughts

Those people can also provide info about facts that were witnessed by more of them, for example Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva and Shannon can provide info about what happened in the gold room... but each of them knows facts that apparently didn't manage to share with the others.

Eva's diary can contain only Eva's truth. She wasn't told in details what Rudolf and Kyrie did when they were out of her sight and I don't think she managed to find out about George's meeting with Shannon or what Battler and Jessica talked about.

So the truth Eva knows can't cover the whole Teaparty and the bits she doesn't know can be only speculation. Ange couldn't have read the whole Teaparty in her diary, even if what she read could have been close enough.

I like to think that the fact that the Teaparty being shown to Ange and Lion symbolized that both Ange and Yasu had to face the Teaparty. Ange read about it, Yasu witnessed it personally. If Yasu survived and became Ikuko and she's living with Tohya the Teaparty can represent at best the story as 3 people saw it, Battler, Yasu and Eva as the Hachijos have her diary.

It still leaves Kyrie and Rudolf's actions and motivations as pure speculation. Eva, Ange and Battler might have assumed the worst due to their various circumstances but they can't claim they know the why or the details about the how. It's a truth that remains in the catbox and therefore you can decide whatever interpretation you want.

About Ep 7 Teaparty and Ep 4:
Renall mix of the two Ep works really well and my guess is it must be pretty close to the truth.

I've been wondering if Kyrie said all those stuffs to Eva because she wanted Eva to kill her.

Kyrie lived in hell for many years due to a man she obsessed with and that wouldn't have chose her if she didn't had abortion... because actually she didn't have abortion, she gave birth to a healthy baby boy and he stole him from her.
Rudolf chose Asumu and yet Kyrie spent her life clinging to him until she was lucky enough to get her chance to have him and now... Rudolf is death.
Kyrie wasted 18 years of her life after a man who favoured another woman over her and married her because that other woman died and she was pregnant.
And now she had murdered people for him and... he died.
Maybe instead than feeling angry she just felt empty. She wasn't greedy per se but because she thought it would benefit Rudolf and despite all she did for him... in the end he never truly loved her as much as she loved him. And now he's gone and she has nothing.

I think it could have been a bad blow that could have pushed her, who knew well how to use guns, to let Eva kill her. Maybe for once she didn't rationalize.

As for Kyrie's words to Battler I like to think they were an advice to Tohya actually on how to deal with the truth. Kyrie suggests to believe. You can take it in two ways. Either believe the witch and avoid thinking that his parents killed people or accept that his parents were a demon and a witch and there's no reason to question this, to torment himself over it, to investigate further as nothing good would come out of it.

Interesting enough Kyrie's words might sound also as is they contained regret.

“Probably, ......even after being clearly shown so many things not of this world, ......we probably still weren't able to believe any of it, I think. I'm still like that now. ......The true form of this thing that keeps attacking me, trying to shoot through my forehead, ......is something I don't understand, .........and I can't believe it. So, ......I want you alone to believe, to understand, .........to accept the existence, ......of that which we couldn't accept. If you do that for me, our deaths won't be wasted. .........It'll also have been worth it for me to make this phone call.........Ah...!”

The things 'not of this world' might be the gold and the bomb that, although existing in this world, seems incredible. We can also add how everyone lost his head and a fight started.

The 'we weren't able to believe it' might be some sort of justification for how everyone went insane. It was a situation too big, they couldn't grasp it and people overreacted and did things they wouldn't believe themselves capable of. The thing that's trying to shoot her head might be a thought that's tormenting her, driving her insane. Maybe she can't accept what she did so smoothly, how they could act so horribly, but wants Battler to accept it and learn fom it that people can do horrible things. Battler always tries to see the best in people but maybe she thinks in that case there's none.

Also, I wonder if actually Kyrie didn't perceive Eva as a treath more than as an obstacle. Eva and Hideyoshi had 'incidentally' killed 2 people and Eva was in a highly agitated state. She pointed her gun at Rosa and vice versa. Maybe Kyrie too felt threatened. It would be interesting to actually learn Kyrie's motive.

Going back to Ep 3, it was actually possible up to that point to build a theory in which it was Rudolf who killed Rosa when he went to search for her and then Kyrie dragged out Hideyoshi to kill him too, not to question him... but Battler tried to build a theory that protected Kyrie.
For all we know Eva and Kyrie could have been both unknowingly be hired by Yasu and work for her to get rid of the others. Yasu merely decided to sacrifice Kyrie to keep Eva but when Kyrie lead Hideyoshi out she knew Yasu would kill him... or make it look as he was killed.

So it'll be interesting to speculate on Kyrie's motive for doing things but likely we'll never know...

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

Yeah, but it is canon. The inconsistencies derive from the bad characterization of Kuwadorian Beatrice, which can be justified, because we were still in EP3, it would be risky to communicate more about her situation and psychosynthesis, it might give away too much. It may have been a good idea to adress it at some point, but I assume it would be difficult to find a proper place for that.

I'm very hesitant to throw that term around for much beyond 'Yasu / ShKannontrice is the game board culprit'. Ryukishi has demonstrated a fondness for incompetent detectives that come to the wrong conclusions (Battler and Erika especially) prompting ridiculous theories, and letting all sorts of characters speak their mind without ever being explicitly corrected. He seems to prefer giving us 'ideas' over answers, and he's thrown wrong ideas out more than once (The alibis for Rosa and Kannon in Ep 2 for example come to mind).

She was planning to escape so it's pretty natural that she wouldn't tell anybody. I don't think they would let her take a stroll anyway, considering the fence and the whole 'wolves' story.

Actually, there's one person she'd almost definitely tell if this was an 'under their noses' escape attempt and she was worried about getting caught: 'Come on, Rosa. We better hurry since Kumasawa could come out at any moment and I'll get in trouble.'

In that case I have proof for it, because they did exist in the first scene of EP3. Kumasawa (Virgilia, to be percise, but it's the same thing) and various other female servants were there, so I think it would be safe to assume that aside from Kinzo's trusted servants, Kuwadorian must have been equiped with a heavily bribed personnel.

Nah, that only proves that Kumasawa visited at some point, probably on a regular basis. I've never disputed that. It doesn't prove that she was there at the time that Rosa popped up in the backyard.

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Renall

Cynically, was Kyrie trying to manipulate Battler into calling Eva out as the murderer, or was she trying to get him to do exactly the opposite? You could sort of read it both ways, depending upon how you think Battler would take things to seem. Whether he actually followed her advice would be another matter entirely, as we know Battler is always the sort to question this kind of thing. The other question would be whether Kyrie knew Battler was going to meet Beatrice. In the "ep4 is Battler's POV of something like ep7" reading she shouldn't though.

I don't think Kyrie's phone chat should be seen as pertaining to Eva herself at all. At that point, Eva would have still been left with the corpses in the gold room, presumed dead, or possibly heading out to see Rudolph. The first Rudolph or Kyrie know that she's still alive are scenes where they get shot with no opportunity to contact Battler or each other. Maybe if breaking the news to George and Jessica went poorly and became a fight to the death?

Maybe we're seeing Kyrie's subterfuge attempt at motherly advice? This girl loves you, ya big lunk, so don't hurt her feelings by laughing at her. A woman scorned is TERRIFYING' And I mean, Kyrie would know on that part.

[Renall]

While true, that'd be a bit odd if Kyrie thought Shannon was already dead (especially if Kyrie was fairly sure she was the one who killed her). But that does assume a course of events nearly identical to either ep4 or ep7, and it's not entirely necessary that this be the case. And if Kyrie didn't even make the call, then it becomes more of a meta-hint regarding Beatrice than anything.

Ultimately however, I do think that Eva had to have been missing information. Looking at ep5 and ep6, both essentially lean on Battler's knowing participation in one scheme or another (the manga confirms this for ep5 and it's pretty obvious for ep6). If some sort of game was meant to be going on, who was in on it? Were Kyrie and Rudolf picked out as accomplices and decided to exploit that? Were they picked to play a role and did, but then things went terribly wrong? We ultimately don't and can't know their POV as no information from them appears to have survived. We only have Eva's diary, which we can summarize as "some course of events similar to what she would've reliably been able to witness in the ep7 TP;" and Battler's fragmentary memories, which suggest he wasn't necessarily sitting around ignorant of everything.

So Eva almost certainly wasn't in on whatever was happening behind the scenes, in which case her conclusions may be unreliable because the things she saw may not have been what they appeared... and Battler seemingly was in on, well, something, which means there actually was something going on behind the scenes. And then there's the other adults, the servants, George and Jessica, etc., none of whom have an accessible POV. So there are almost certainly things that happened that neither Eva nor Battler actually saw. In those instances we can't necessarily trust either of them to have properly interpreted things, but perhaps Battler could be trusted a little bit more (if he was indeed in on some plan or game or somesuch).

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

In the Ep7 tea party, Shannon's execution was after Eva had passed out, so I consider that part of 'Eva's Fantasy' along witha ll the other mustache twirling stuff.

I don't think of Kyrie as the type to initiate all that fantastical magic stuff, so I tend to believe that the narrative of the escape attempt is something Yasu came up with and gave her to read on the spot. Either at gunpoint, or because she was persuaded to play the game some time after the shootout in the gold room. In that case, it's less 'Why would Kyrie say Shannon's dead, and more like 'why would Yasu off her two other personalities in the fantasy narrative' which is not too hard to guess at: George and Jessica were already dead at that point.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

Ultimately however, I do think that Eva had to have been missing information. Looking at ep5 and ep6, both essentially lean on Battler's knowing participation in one scheme or another (the manga confirms this for ep5 and it's pretty obvious for ep6). If some sort of game was meant to be going on, who was in on it?

I think one of the points we can take from the EP8 manga's solution of EP5 is also that there was more than one scheme going on.

Since the overarching story of "The Rokkenjima Witch Serial Murder Case"(TM) is a mystery (however much infused with other tropes), there needs to be a mastermind...which is what Erika was trying to find out for those Episodes and which they allowed.

But it's also still strange that Battler came back this of all years, when we know that the Eva, Rudolph and Rosa factions were working together in bringing down Krauss and Natsuhi's scheme of hiding Kinzo's death. It is not unlikely that Rudolph and Kyrie brought back Battler for pretty much a tactical reason as well...because they might have had a bigger plan set up.
At the same time Yasu had her own plan and she didn't even know that there was going to be something running counter to her own plan. Looking at EP1 and 2 it's fairly clear that while the parents suspect foul play, they never bring up any sign of a unified front or plan against Kratsuhi, while it starts popping up in 3 and becomes really apparent in 4 and 5.

So, the EP8 manga tells us that Battler would never be a culprit in Beatrice's games...OF COURSE NOT, since she loved him and he was the one person she perceived as innocent and idealistic. The question is, was he?!