Can Orochimaru really make Sasuke stronger than Itachi?

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by Rurik

The true purpose of the CS is that, create pawns fro Orochimaru, even If Sasuke surpass both Oro and Itahci in strength, Oro will have the CS to control Sasuke to his liking.

this scenario has been done before

Person has lots of power
Person w/ lots of power is controlled by another Person
Person breaks free of the other Person's control

or...Ichigo breaking free of that paralyzation kidou Rukia used on him in like the first episode of Bleach

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by astayanax

Personally, I agree with Itachi when he told Sasuke that he was too weak; and that his hatred wasn't enough. There appears to be a direct connection between the two in my eyes.

For Sasuke to gain the power he truly needs to defeat Itachi, then his hatred (and not just for Itachi) has to go to a whole new level. He really have to take a huge step into the darkness.

Orochimaru won't be able to teach Sasuke this.

I dont think this is true. The basis of the anime is friendship/ties to people = true power. Sasuke made the ultimate bad choice when he cut his ties. His friends could have helped him achieve his goal, but his arrogance (and coercion from his brother) has doomed him.

The anime also dictates that your true power shines when you are protecting someone you care about. If you only care about yourself, then you never will truely be powerful, nor happy.

Sasuke is the story's "unpredictable" borderline character, so we will probably see him flip flopping good/evil. In the end though, im positive we will see his final choice be good.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Dauthi

I dont think this is true. The basis of the anime is friendship/ties to people = true power. Sasuke made the ultimate bad choice when he cut his ties. His friends could have helped him achieve his goal, but his arrogance (and coercion from his brother) has doomed him.

I think the Manga state otherwise, the reason why Sasuke needed to leave Konoha was Tied to the fact that his goal was beginning to sway as staying more time in Konoha and creating stronger bonds was making him forget his goal to kill Itachi.

That’s was the main point touch by both Kakshi and the sound four, Kakashi was saying forget about revenge you have good friends now, whereas the Sound four were telling him that staying in Konoha will not help at all in pursuing his goal to Kill Itachi.

And somewhat I agree with the observation made here.

[s-class uchiha]

Originally Posted by Rurik

I think the Manga state otherwise, the reason why Sasuke needed to leave Konoha was Tied to the fact that his goal was beginning to sway as staying more time in Konoha and creating stronger bonds was making him forget his goal to kill Itachi.

That’s was the main point touch by both Kakshi and the sound four, Kakashi was saying forget about revenge you have good friends now, whereas the Sound four were telling him that staying in Konoha will not help at all in pursuing his goal to Kill Itachi.

And somewhat I agree with the observation made here.

I agree if "true power" was from friendships and what not, Kakashi and Co. would not get owned by Itachi, Oro, etc...

There are plenty of people who are super strong (in fact most) that do not buy into that thing, though I believe in the Narutoverse it is a powerful, but not the only, motivator.

And I concur that this is the reason why he left Konoha, although he did gain a lot of power, he was so far off where he needed to be prb thinking to himself that if he compared Itachi at 13 with himself he'd still be nothing...

As for the overall question, i def. think that Orochimaru can make Sasuke as strong as Itachi theoretically... if Sasuke gets the MS. I think that orochimaru has enough experience and know how to craft Sasuke and train him to the level he could defeat Itachi... EVENTUALLY theoretically

Without the MS = no way
Within 5 years even w/ the MS = no way
Eventually = Yes

With that said, I emphasized theoretically b/c I think that Itachi is just way too inately talented, experienced, and just plain awesome, but not enough to the point that it is out of the realm of possibility, albeit small...

[Sazelyt]

Let's just put it this way. If Sasuke had gotten rid of the thoughts on revenge, then, staying in Konoha would be the right choice to become stronger compared to training outside. On the other hand, with revenge in mind, training outside Konoha without his friends would be the right choice. In any case, he can fully concentrate on his training.

Also, if you want to compare to Sasuke training with Kakashi or Sasuke training with Orochimaru, we cannot draw the conclusion simply. If Sasuke would have trained with Kakashi, he would be one-step closer to beating Itachi right now (MS). But, in the long-term, the training with Orochimaru might pay off better because of learning from a more experienced teacher.

But, if Sasuke is bound to become very strong, then training with Kakashi or Orochimaru logically wouldn't have mattered a lot, as Itachi had neither of the top guys as his teacher.

Originally Posted by s-class uchiha

Without the MS = no way

Uchihas are not the strongest even with MS - if that would be the case , we would have heard, so, experiencing a different kind of training compared to Itachi, Sasuke can still become stronger than Itachi, even without MS.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Dauthi and Rurik both make good points. One of the underlying themes of Naruto is that fighting for revenge's sake is never a good thing, but fighting to protect loved ones is. Sasuke taking the quick path to power by joining with Orochimaru set the basis for his downfall which I'm pretty confident will result in his death (he just seems like a tragic antihero-type character). I'm sure Sasuke will get quite a bit more powerful before the series is over, but ultimately he would have had greater potential in Konoha.

Also, I don't think that Sasuke has any intention of letting Oro inhabit his body. What's the point of revenge if your consciousness doesn't even survive to experience it? That speech he spouted to Naruto and his team was probably just a ploy meant for Kabuto and Oro who was lurking nearby unseen. Eventually he'll find a way to overcome the cursed seal, either through Kabuto's help (I doubt his allegiance to Oro as well) or through sheer will power.

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by Rurik

I think the Manga state otherwise, the reason why Sasuke needed to leave Konoha was Tied to the fact that his goal was beginning to sway as staying more time in Konoha and creating stronger bonds was making him forget his goal to kill Itachi.

That’s was the main point touch by both Kakshi and the sound four, Kakashi was saying forget about revenge you have good friends now, whereas the Sound four were telling him that staying in Konoha will not help at all in pursuing his goal to Kill Itachi.

And somewhat I agree with the observation made here.

This anime and many other shonen always emphasize this point : You can do anything if it is to protect someone you care about. Naruto himself constantly proves this, it is practically the theme of the show.

Sasuke could have become stronger staying at Konoha, as well as happier. His goal would have had to wait just as long as being with Oro since the Akatsuki are on the move, and Leaf is directly fighting them now. Of course he didn't know that.

In a sense he would have won against itatchi had he ignored his taunts and misgivings. Now he is doomed to a angry/twisted life (like his brother) to which only naruto can save him.

In any case, yes he will be powerful with Oro's help. Naruto will win against him as long as he is fighting to help his best friend Sasuke however. This we can be assured ^^

Naruto physically lost his last battle, but in the end achieved his goal. He got through to Sasuke, and stopped Sasuke from turning completely evil. (thus why he didn't kill Naruto)

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Dauthi

Naruto physically lost his last battle, but in the end achieved his goal. He got through to Sasuke, and stopped Sasuke from turning completely evil. (thus why he didn't kill Naruto)

I guess it was a temporary victory. The first thing Sasuke did when they met after the time skip was try to decapitate Naruto.

[minuteman]

i think saskue will kill oro in the end and he will do this when oro trys to take is body i think saskue has been playing him this whole time.

[Suna no tate]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Also, I don't think that Sasuke has any intention of letting Oro inhabit his body. What's the point of revenge if your consciousness doesn't even survive to experience it? That speech he spouted to Naruto and his team was probably just a ploy meant for Kabuto and Oro who was lurking nearby unseen. Eventually he'll find a way to overcome the cursed seal, either through Kabuto's help (I doubt his allegiance to Oro as well) or through sheer will power.

How can you doubt Kabuto's allegiance to Oro? The jutsu binding him to Akatsuki was already broken. I used to doubt it as well, but then Kabuto said something, or rather thought something to himself that convinced me otherwise. It was during the part of the story where Oro's arms had just been sealed and he was desparately in need of a new host (Sasuke). However, Kabuto, in thought, revealed that he was willing to give Oro his own body. That's true allegiance if you ask me, and Kabuto thought this or said it to himself. Oro wasn't even present. So it had to be a true thought.

As for Sasuke's own intentions, I also disagree with you. Here's why. According to you, he'll kill Itachi and then turn on Orochimaru. However, that doesn't explain why he left Konoha since he could do both of those things while training in Konoha. More importantly, if Sasuke is planning on enjoying life with both Orochimaru and Itachi dead, wouldn't you think he'd like to have friends and family around like Naruto and Sakura? I'd think so... but yet he tried to kill them too... Sasuke seems to want power at all costs, even at the cost of his own body and soul. Why not give up his body? He holds no real grudge against Oro and Oro is only helping Sasuke fulfill his goals.

As for my prediction, I doubt Sasuke will actually get to kill itachi. In fact, I see Itachi pretty much beating Sasuke to a point near death. Then Naruto comes in and fights on Sasuke's behalf and at that point, Sasuke realizes what true friendship is and how he's been such a fool. Naruto defeats Itachi but only to watch Sasuke die as well. In his rage, he turns to Orochimaru, the mastermind behind it all.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Dauthi

This anime and many other shonen always emphasize this point : You can do anything if it is to protect someone you care about. Naruto himself constantly proves this, it is practically the theme of the show.

Sasuke could have become stronger staying at Konoha, as well as happier. His goal would have had to wait just as long as being with Oro since the Akatsuki are on the move, and Leaf is directly fighting them now. Of course he didn't know that.

In a sense he would have won against itatchi had he ignored his taunts and misgivings. Now he is doomed to a angry/twisted life (like his brother) to which only naruto can save him.

In any case, yes he will be powerful with Oro's help. Naruto will win against him as long as he is fighting to help his best friend Sasuke however. This we can be assured ^^

Naruto physically lost his last battle, but in the end achieved his goal. He got through to Sasuke, and stopped Sasuke from turning completely evil. (thus why he didn't kill Naruto)

You didn’t it get my point, I’m not talking about if he would had gotten stronger or not in Kenosha, which he probably could had, Who Knows?

I’m talking about Sasuke Psyche, staying in Konoha could had ultimately meant, Sasuke dropping his vendetta, and this was touch more than once, By Kakashi, By Itachi, By Kabuto, By Orochimaru, and By the Sound Four, too Bad that Sasuke only had one of the Good Guys to give him advise.

Spoiler:

From Sasuke words, He did not kill Naruto out of a whim

[s-class uchiha]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Let's just put it this way. If Sasuke had gotten rid of the thoughts on revenge, then, staying in Konoha would be the right choice to become stronger compared to training outside. On the other hand, with revenge in mind, training outside Konoha without his friends would be the right choice. In any case, he can fully concentrate on his training.

Also, if you want to compare to Sasuke training with Kakashi or Sasuke training with Orochimaru, we cannot draw the conclusion simply. If Sasuke would have trained with Kakashi, he would be one-step closer to beating Itachi right now (MS). But, in the long-term, the training with Orochimaru might pay off better because of learning from a more experienced teacher.

I think that's all i was saying that Sasuke in his pre time skip state , couldn't of had a better teacher than Orochimaru... but I'll buy the fact that Kakashi w/ the MS and having Sasuke Copy it could've been crazy too.. In fact I'm inclined to think that that training w/ kakashi and obtaining his MS, might made a bigger difference in 2.5 years, but perhaps not in the long run as you say.

I was really more talking about what could theoretically happen (including killing naruto and MS as a given) , not that it was the best case or anything like that.

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

But, if Sasuke is bound to become very strong, then training with Kakashi or Orochimaru logically wouldn't have mattered a lot, as Itachi had neither of the top guys as his teacher.

Well, from the looks of it Sasuke didn't grow that much under kakashi and not enough under Orochimaru. I highly doubt he woudl be as far as long as he is by himself. Well Itachi is Itachi, and he's just crazy and that's why Sasuke who wasn't a match for him pretimeskip needed help and Orochimaru is a good of a teacher as any.

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Uchihas are not the strongest even with MS - if that would be the case , we would have heard, so, experiencing a different kind of training compared to Itachi, Sasuke can still become stronger than Itachi, even without MS.

Yea he could, but I doubt it. I mean I doubt on his own, w/o the MS, Sasuke would rival Orochimaru. I mean that's no small thing to be as strong as Orochimaru. Yea the Uchiha's are prb not the strongest, but arguabley Itachi being stronger than Orochimaru is crazy crazy strong.

I was focusing on whether Sasuke could theoretically beat Itachi, not if the Uchiha's were the strongest or that you need a MS to beat another MS user. I do think however that Sasuke would need the MS to beat Itachi, not so much that MS is so dang invincible, but that Itachi is such a high level ninja and way above Sasuke that he would def. need that advantage.

Meaning that even if Itachi didn't use the MS, Sasuke (well anybody) would have an incredibly difficult time beating him...

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by Rurik

You didn’t it get my point, I’m not talking about if he would had gotten stronger or not in Kenosha, which he probably could had, Who Knows?

I’m talking about Sasuke Psyche, staying in Konoha could had ultimately meant, Sasuke dropping his vendetta, and this was touch more than once, By Kakashi, By Itachi, By Kabuto, By Orochimaru, and By the Sound Four, too Bad that Sasuke only had one of the Good Guys to give him advise.

Spoiler:

From Sasuke words, He did not kill Naruto out of a whim

Originally Posted by Dauthi

is goal would have had to wait just as long as being with Oro since the Akatsuki are on the move, and Leaf is directly fighting them now. Of course he didn't know that.

Nope i definitely got it and replied right there.

His revenge would have had to wait, but in reality he would have had it anyways when leaf protected Naruto/fought akatsuki. But like i said, he didn't know this.

So yes, he didn't want to lose sight of his goal, but he also didn't realize that he is more powerful with friends. This is due to his brother's coercion.

[Suna no tate]

Maito Gai would be a better teacher. Sasuke opening gates and having the sharingan as well? Quite a nasty thought.... Ultimately if he stayed in Konoha, he could have worked with both Gai and Kakashi, becoming both a taijutsu and technique specialist. He seems to lose out in going to Orochimaru. Oro might get him stronger faster (ie with drugs, gene manipulation, and forbidden techniques), but Sasuke would get strongest if he stayed in Konoha.

I doubt he'll beat Itachi. What techniques can he use to match up to it? Amaterasu is unavailable to Sasuke as it is, and that alone will win the battle for Itachi. I'm assuming Sasuke wants a fair face to face fight, and doesn't simply want to ambush Itachi when he's asleep or something. All the techniques Sasuke will learn will come from Oro, yet Oro has no techniques to match up with Itachi. Even if Sasuke improves Oro's techniques, there is still the MS to deal with and to date, he has nothing. But a tailed naruto, might do better as tsukuyomi may not be effective since Naruto isn't fully present in a high tailed state, and amaterasu might not be able to get past that chakra shield.

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

Maito Gai would be a better teacher. Sasuke opening gates and having the sharingan as well? Quite a nasty thought.... Ultimately if he stayed in Konoha, he could have worked with both Gai and Kakashi, becoming both a taijutsu and technique specialist. He seems to lose out in going to Orochimaru. Oro might get him stronger faster (ie with drugs, gene manipulation, and forbidden techniques), but Sasuke would get strongest if he stayed in Konoha.

I doubt he'll beat Itachi. What techniques can he use to match up to it? Amaterasu is unavailable to Sasuke as it is, and that alone will win the battle for Itachi. I'm assuming Sasuke wants a fair face to face fight, and doesn't simply want to ambush Itachi when he's asleep or something. All the techniques Sasuke will learn will come from Oro, yet Oro has no techniques to match up with Itachi. Even if Sasuke improves Oro's techniques, there is still the MS to deal with and to date, he has nothing. But a tailed naruto, might do better as tsukuyomi may not be effective since Naruto isn't fully present in a high tailed state, and amaterasu might not be able to get past that chakra shield.

I doubt he will win by using his evil-gained power also. I think when he converts back to good for the sake of Naruto is when he will ultimately be able to defeat Itatchi.

Also about Sasuke learning to open gates, he may have been able to learn a few as Kakashi has, but probably not more than him. You have to be naturally gifted at it like Lee methinks to fully utilize it.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

How can you doubt Kabuto's allegiance to Oro? The jutsu binding him to Akatsuki was already broken. I used to doubt it as well, but then Kabuto said something, or rather thought something to himself that convinced me otherwise. It was during the part of the story where Oro's arms had just been sealed and he was desparately in need of a new host (Sasuke). However, Kabuto, in thought, revealed that he was willing to give Oro his own body. That's true allegiance if you ask me, and Kabuto thought this or said it to himself. Oro wasn't even present. So it had to be a true thought.

Breaking Sasori's binding jutsu doesn't ensure Kabuto's allegiance to Oro. It just means that he's not under Sasori's control anymore. However if he thought or stated to himself that he would give up his own body for Orochimaru then that would seal the deal on where his loyalties lie. However, I can't remember him saying this. Can you (or anyone else reading this post) give the chapter in the manga where he states this.

As for Sasuke's own intentions, I also disagree with you. Here's why. According to you, he'll kill Itachi and then turn on Orochimaru. However, that doesn't explain why he left Konoha since he could do both of those things while training in Konoha. More importantly, if Sasuke is planning on enjoying life with both Orochimaru and Itachi dead, wouldn't you think he'd like to have friends and family around like Naruto and Sakura? I'd think so... but yet he tried to kill them too... Sasuke seems to want power at all costs, even at the cost of his own body and soul. Why not give up his body? He holds no real grudge against Oro and Oro is only helping Sasuke fulfill his goals.

Well I never said that he was going to kill Itachi or Oro. However, he will most definitely try to kill Itachi on his own and that will most likely bring him into direct conflict with Orochimaru. So he'll have to find some way to defeat him (unlikely) or escape from him (more likely). He's using Oro for train himself because Oro is a sanin who knows many lethal forbidden jutsus. So sanin training + cursed seal + forbidden jutsu + strength enhancing drugs= quick massive power up. Can Konoha offer these things? No. And I'm not saying that Sasuke wants to escape Oro because surivival is important to him. I'm saying that when he exacts revenge against Itachi, it seems like he would want it to be his revenge. Letting Oro take over his body makes it Oro's revenge. Also you say Oro is only helping Sasuke fufill his goals. Ha! Oro doesn't give a damn about Sasuke's goals and Sasuke knows it, he just wants to have his body. Who's to say that Orochimaru will even go after Itachi once he has the Sharingan. He has no real reason to even want to fight Itachi since his main goal is to conquer Konoha.

As for my prediction, I doubt Sasuke will actually get to kill itachi. In fact, I see Itachi pretty much beating Sasuke to a point near death. Then Naruto comes in and fights on Sasuke's behalf and at that point, Sasuke realizes what true friendship is and how he's been such a fool. Naruto defeats Itachi but only to watch Sasuke die as well. In his rage, he turns to Orochimaru, the mastermind behind it all.

I don't see Sasuke beating Itachi either. At best, they might have a fight that results in both of their deaths, to me this seems the most likely scenario.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Dauthi

Nope i definitely got it and replied right there.

His revenge would have had to wait, but in reality he would have had it anyways when leaf protected Naruto/fought akatsuki. But like i said, he didn't know this.

So yes, he didn't want to lose sight of his goal, but he also didn't realize that he is more powerful with friends. This is due to his brother's coercion.

Errrmm no, you are not getting it still, Sasuke was loosing sight of his goal, Kakshi was already telling him to forget about his goal, So yeah, Is a Stated FACT that Sasuke staying in Konoha would had meant Sasuke forgetting about his goal to Kill Itachi.

Even if Konoha would had tried to take on Akatsuki, it does not mater, as Sasuke psyche would had been changed from a Avatar that only leaved for revenge, to an Friendly Shinoby who cares about his friend and forgot about his revenge and maybe even trying to save Itahic instead of Wanting to kill him.

[Suna no tate]

About Kabuto's true interests

Spoiler:

I couldn't find the one where he said it by himself, so I'm thinking I got it wrong. Or maybe it was in the conversation he had with Kimimaro. Anyway Kabuto clearly offers up his body. Its possible he didn't mean it, but come on... Oro is clearly in pain, and Kabuto clearly wants to help him out of it. He didn't have to offer his own body, but he did. Anyway, read it how you wish.

I also fully agree that Oro could care less about training Sasuke. After all, he was ready to immediately take his body as the above picture shows, but unfortunately had to change his plans. I suppose right now his training Sasuke is just a method of keeping sasuke around, sort of the carrot on the stick. From Sasuke's point of view, he [sasuke] holds no grudge against Oro because Oro at worst is only helping fulfill Sasuke's goals.

[Demongod86]

Odds are, Kishi's gonna be cliche. Right when Sasuke does defeat Itachi if at all, he'll do it with the help of his friends or whatnot, and then pull the typical "killing you would make me no better than you blah blah blah I'm a good guy" sentimental speech.

Come on, little kids are reading this...if they look up to Sasuke who kills his own family, well...

[Dauthi]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Errrmm no, you are not getting it still, Sasuke was loosing sight of his goal, Kakshi was already telling him to forget about his goal, So yeah, Is a Stated FACT that Sasuke staying in Konoha would had meant Sasuke forgetting about his goal to Kill Itachi.

Even if Konoha would had tried to take on Akatsuki, it does not mater, as Sasuke psyche would had been changed from a Avatar that only leaved for revenge, to an Friendly Shinoby who cares about his friend and forgot about his revenge and maybe even trying to save Itahic instead of Wanting to kill him.

I replied saying that he thought he would have to at least put his goal on hold for the better of the village, as he had been doing. Again in my very first post :

Originally Posted by Dauthi

His goal would have had to wait

Kakashi approaches him about this after he starts to seriously think about running away (his fight with naruto). He started obsessing about it, making him think he wasnt powerful enough, so he would leave and seek power. Kakashi tried to stop this. Notice he didn't say anything about his revenge before this incident.

Certainly if his opponent was Itatchi, he could have his revenge while in leaf. But at that point it was uncertain if he would have enough power or get the chance if he stayed doing missions for leaf. Itatchi also lead him to believe he was less powerful for staying.

He might have softened to the point of not wanting to kill his brother, but thats a matter of opinion, hardly fact. I think what dictated his actions mostly was power. There probably was a good part of him that thought he might lose sight of his goal as well however.