US Elections 2012 Part II: The Conventions, Debates and Election results

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Urzu 7

The poll doesn't mean much. A lot of conservatives could've flocked to the online poll to vote for Ryan because they want the poll results to favor Ryan.



What does ABC news (TV) favor? Left? Right? Center-left? Center-right?

ABC? ABC favors Disney, whatever makes Disney more money. To determine the actual slant of an entertainment commercial enterprise that also does news .... see who owns it.

Since Disney favors stronger "imaginary property" (IP) laws -- so they *tend* to favor Democrats but they spend money on both sides of the aisle.

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Remember, CNN, MSNBC, Fox --- they *need* this to be a tight horse race to Election Day. It sells commercials.

And that's the real shame on Mass Corporate Media. The "bottom line" is the most important thing to them, where everything else is second without a second thought to the consequences of their information control. Thankfully, we have the Internet and Social Media, that sways in its own directions.

[Vexx]

We also have non-profit news media: PBS, BBC, and several dozen world outlets as well as fact-checking groups. They have their own "slant" but vast omission doesn't seem to be the sort of problem they have.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Vexx

The problem is the "audience" is untrained in debate and analysis, in the need to substantiate assertions, in their fact checking. And apparently the "pundits at CNN" never took debate. Sheesh. At best for Ryan it was a draw (which I'd argue is all he needed to do against an experienced orator).

Remember, CNN, MSNBC, Fox --- they *need* this to be a tight horse race to Election Day. It sells commercials.

The more I watch CNN over the years, the more I'm starting to believe they are losing the legendary quality they used to have and that's happening very quickly IMHO. The VP debate was made in a format in which people can find it as really enjoyable. Ryan had his share of good moments, but Biden did his job and lured Ryan into a few traps. To me, the old man did his job. It's a real shame that the media are trying to make it look like the debate was a very very close one when Ryan had a few things in common with John Edwards' performance in 2004.

About the results of the poll, a large number of Republicans must have logged on CNN to cast their vote after everyone saw that Joe Biden mostly took control here. The CNN website was jammed when I tried to get in and see the temporary results of that poll before it went on the air. We can say whatever we want about VP debates, but I believe it brought a stabilizing effect today as it did in favor of Dick Cheney right after Bush took some heavy flak in the first debate in 2004.

All we have to wait now is Obama to take notes on what Biden did and then lead a full attack on Romney on next Tuesday. After all, the only way for Obama to win back some points would be to push Romney back into the corners.

[MrTerrorist]

Interesting.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

The more I watch CNN over the years, the more I'm starting to believe they are losing the legendary quality they used to have and that's happening very quickly IMHO. The VP debate was made in a format in which people cand find it as really enjoyable. Ryan had his share of good moments, but Biden did his job and lured Ryan into a few traps. To me, the old man did his job. It's a real shame that the media are trying to make it look like the debate was a very very close one when Ryan had a few things in common with John Edwards' performance in 2004.

About the results of the poll, a large number of Republicans must have logged on CNN to cast their vote after everyone saw that Joe Biden mostly took control here. The CNN website was jammed when I tried to get in and see the temporary results of that poll before it went on the air. We can say whatever we want about VP debates, but I believe it brought a stabilizing effect today as it did in favor of Dick Cheney right after Bush took some heavy flak in the first debate in 2004.

All we have to wait now is Obama to take notes on what Biden did and then lead a full attack on Romney on next Tuesday. After all, the only way for Obama to win back some points would be to push Romney back into the corners.

While not Fox News I'm pretty sure CNN leans slightly right these days. They alway seem to give Republican matters a little edge or cut them a little bit of a break wherever they come up short in most other news cycles. Again it's not blatantly obvious like with Fox News, but it's hard not to notice at times. As for their quality I think like with many other news aggregates it's the 24 new cycle, Facebook, Twitter and the desire to appeal to all audiences that sunk them and made them something of a laughing stock as far as getting across important news. There's so much focus on irrelevant crap after the VP debate like Biden's "smirking" and how Ryan made at least some points in going up against an elder statesman like Biden as if again a candidate should be the beneficiary of low expectations instead of take the thing. If you want to do a point by point break down and discuss the latter fine, but why should this be advantage Ryan? Just a lot of irrelevant stuff you'd never have heard them talking about during the Kennedy vs. Nixon debates.

[Lord of Fire]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

Interesting.

I love C.G.P. Grey's videos. They're very informative and I learned stuff I never even heard about through them.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Lord of Fire

I love C.G.P. Grey's videos. They're very informative and I learned stuff I never even heard about through them.

When I was growing up, this was basic civics class (and a certain PBS Rock program *cough*). It's amazing how many people romanticize the convoluted and often bonkers way our system of governing actually works. I give the Founding Fathers a lot of credit for their foresight, but a lot of how we decide things is clearly rooted in some very old and often antiquated ways of thinking.

You know, like how we pick the guy who gets to sit in the Oval Office.

Although even a civics class doesn't help with a lot of this. It might be advantageous in certain political circumstances, but a lot of how things are done in Washington don't do the people good service, and I'm just referring to how things are supposed to run. I'm leaving out the bad behavior parts.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

According to CNN, 48% thought Ryan won while 44% are with Biden and CNN itself considers it a draw.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...-44/?hpt=hp_t1

I don't get it, were we watching a different debate? Sure Biden probably came off a little strong, but it's clear who had control and substance here.

There's no 'probably came off a little strong' to it. I think Biden gave a perfectly good performance in that he gave sound arguments, but I can't see how anyone could claim that his demeanor and attitude wasn't that of a jackass.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

There's no 'probably came off a little strong' to it. I think Biden gave a perfectly good performance in that he gave sound arguments, but I can't see how anyone could claim that his demeanor and attitude wasn't that of a jackass.

While I wouldn't say he was a jackass, I think there was a bit too much "Get-Off-My-Lawn" syndrome. Biden was clearly, at times, treating Ryan and his ideas as childish and was often seemingly scolding Ryan for his perceived childishness. Whether you think Ryan's ideas are childish are not is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is Biden shouldn't have treated Ryan so dismissively. And sadly, even hen you break down the point by point analysis and see that Biden was clearly ahead in most instances (just in terms of general facts and rhetorical ability), it will be his dismissive nature that will be equally remembered.

[Dr. Casey]

Good assessment. Biden very much gave off the 'Hahaha, everything this guy's saying is so wrong and/or dumb' vibe. I'm not saying that it's a terribly important issue or that it should be a deciding factor of who performed better in the debate or anything; but credit should be given where credit is due and blame should be given where blame is due, and claiming that Biden wasn't behaving rudely just makes one seem as though they're so biased in favor of Biden that they're unwilling to assign said blame.

[Vexx]

I'll just say its very difficult NOT to be short fused and dismissive when the person makes so many errors, misrepresentations, can't do the math, doesn't understand the topic .... its hard to believe they are in the same room. There's simply no quality on the right side of the room and this is the view of someone who vote Republican from 1975 to 1999.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Vexx

There's simply no quality on the right side of the room and this is the view of someone who vote Republican from 1975 to 1999.

I'm still a registered Republican, a baby compared to you I admit (couldn't resist boasting youth ), and I actually took few positive in Ryan from this debate. Yeah, he is still muddled, but he appeared to be the best person that can lead the Republican party when the competition is Santorum, Trump, Bachman, that black guy who likes his women white, the adulterer, and Mr. Romney himself. If things don't work out for Romney/Ryan this time around, I think the VP debate answered the question for the Republican faithful about who is poised to be the Republican candidate for 2016. One of the main reason the Super Pac for Republicans pouring so much money into this election even though it's headed by a guy like Romney is because the future looks very bleak for the Republican party. Ryan's performance last night showed there is still hope. For Ryan himself, the problem is how he can maintain a safe distance from the extremism that has taken over the GOP and still be the leading hope for the party in the coming years.

As for the debate, I very much enjoyed the beautiful pearly-while denture work Biden eagerly showed so many times. I ran into the kitchen to pour me some tea as soon as he came out saying, "Well, it's just malarkey" I just could not afford to go to sleep. I agree with James that he sounded dismissive and came across as condescending when he was talking to Ryan, but I guess the Obama-camp's priority was to stop the bleeding however they can. When Mr. Potato-head himself (aka Chris Mathews for anyone who doesn't know) breathlessly declared Obama was terrible, you know the Democrats had every reason to panic. So, they unleashed fury. They unleashed Biden. And he did not disappoint. This performance by Biden certainly re-energized the Democratic base which was needed desperately and carefully aimed at. Obama can take it from there.

Obama obviously can't be like Biden because that's impossible for obvious reasons. He can, however, say everything Biden said word for word without the smirk, condescending-tone, and without any dismissive attitude ......and I believe he will pretty much have this election in the bag. The only place I can see Obama can be made uncomfortable would be his handling of Libya, but he has done so well in almost every other venues of foreign policy that I can't see him in trouble. He will also have to muster conviction even if the stage is set on top of the Himalayas. The coming debate is the town-hall format, so Obama can't afford to show people like the last time that perhaps he had enough of the presidency. When you want to play president of the US, you will need to be the man of all trade, including a firm grasp of the affect of Populism.

That said, GOP may have finally found a not-laughable candidate in Ryan for the next president election in the not so distant future. Hopefully, this performance from Ryan will also convince Santorum that perhaps sending your kids to college isn't a bad thing after all. Close behind Bachman, he is my second favorite politician.

[ganbaru]

U.S. consumer sentiment jumps ahead of elections
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...89B0U320121012
A good sign for Obama, no ?

Factbox: Key quotes from vice presidential debate
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...89B03220121012

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I'll just say its very difficult NOT to be short fused and dismissive when the person makes so many errors, misrepresentations, can't do the math, doesn't understand the topic .... its hard to believe they are in the same room. There's simply no quality on the right side of the room and this is the view of someone who vote Republican from 1975 to 1999.

If the Republican party wasn't so batshit crazy and I wasn't absolutely convinced that they just want to rape the country of all it's collective wealth and put it in the hands of the already rich and powerful as their sole goal should Romney be elected this election wouldn't have me as worked up...as a Non-American at that. I'll just feel so sorry for the Americans if Romney does get elected as I can't even imagine the degree of bad policy that will result. About the best one could hope for is the Democrats in the Senate to put a stop gap on any egregiously bad policy and to force the Republicans to compromise otherwise I can't even imagine how bad things are going to look.

It must suck having only one realistic choice and that choice appears to be one merely for mediocrity.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by james0246

While I wouldn't say he was a jackass, I think there was a bit too much "Get-Off-My-Lawn" syndrome. Biden was clearly, at times, treating Ryan and his ideas as childish and was often seemingly scolding Ryan for his perceived childishness. Whether you think Ryan's ideas are childish are not is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is Biden shouldn't have treated Ryan so dismissively. And sadly, even hen you break down the point by point analysis and see that Biden was clearly ahead in most instances (just in terms of general facts and rhetorical ability), it will be his dismissive nature that will be equally remembered.

Sorry but I have to disagree. I found myself laughing right along with Biden at the ridiculousness of the whole thing. Ryan has always been put up as the "brainy" Republican, and while he can certainly rattle off numbers his responses often bordered on naive if not stupidly reckless. I'm not trying to sell the guy too short, but it was painfully clear that he is nowhere near ready to have the responsibility he is running for.

Biden did exactly what Obama needed to do (and should have been doing for the last four years), which was to say strongly, "THIS STUFF IS BULLS***". Or malarkey, since Biden's Irish was showing quite a bit. Sorry but I don't find the things he did dismissive at all. He played equal parts debater and the voter watching at home perfectly. Frankly I'm amazed he wasn't more animated, especially when Ryan completely dodged questions, refused to offer any specifics, and repeated lines over and over again even when they have been proven time and again to be lies.

I'm sure Biden could have contained himself better, but I'm baffled at the criticism. Debates are like this. Romney dominated time, interrupted and spoke out of turn, essentially told the moderator he'd fire him if he was elected, flipped on multiple issues and lied his ass off to the American people, and yet he "won" the debate because by golly, he looked so statesman. I saw people defending Obama's performance as "Presidential", which is a joke as well. I won't deny that body language matters, but people need to not be so hung up on the superficial and listen to what these people say.

A lot of these commentaries I've been reading about last night focus far too little on the substance of the discussion and far more on the presentation. Huffington has an article about how much water Ryan drank. Really, water?! Who the heck cares?

[Dr. Casey]

Yeah, sorry if you think interrupting someone literally over 80 times (rather than just debunking their arguments once they've finished speaking, which should be easy if Ryan's arguments are as weak as you claim, and would make their discourse more coherent to boot) counts as legitimate debating tactics, can't help you there if you think "CALLIN' OUT RYAN'S BULLSHIT" or whatever makes it okay to drown Ryan out and make the 'discussion' completely one-sided

What Romney did last week is irrelevant (though for what it's worth I think he also interrupted too much), whether people place too much emphasis on his mannerisms is irrelevant, none of that changes the fact that Biden's refusal to let Ryan speak without interrupting him every other sentence is poor form (which is all I was saying to begin with, no implications beyond that)

[Vexx]

A stupid meme arose in the '80s that "Perception is Reality" - they taught it in the business schools. So advance several decades and today we have media (that is all about appearance rather than content) hashing out the kind of makeup a candidate wore or whether they rolled their eyes at something a child could tell was bullshit.

Whee .... :P

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Solace

Or malarkey, since Biden's Irish was showing quite a bit.

I would have said "Ryan is a dodgy Eejit whose arguments are banjaxed. If that thick tool got into office he'd just make a hames of things as the country got knackered. I feel manky just listening to his blather. He should stop foostering about and cop on."

[Dr. Casey]

people are terrible, I'm sure that this brand of retardation goes back much further than the 1980s, cavemen back in the prehistoric era probably elected their caveman tribe leaders based off who made the best cave drawings or something similarly petty