2013-05-04, 05:54 | Link #141 | |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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But I think practice has shown that those who stand behind this definition have a very shallow relationship to these characters, if it's to be equated to paternal feelings, empathy or adoration. The sheer number of characters these so called moe fans express their devotion to, where it's standard to hear "character love only lasts one cour", isn't anything alike expressing emotions to, let's say, real people. Now, I'm not one to equate reality and fiction too strongly, so this is a minor point, but the mass consumption of characters in this manner means that either: 1.) these people don't really know what moe feelings are like, which raises concerns of accessibility and promotes elitism, or 2.) moe has expanded its definition and this expanded definition is what people refer to on a more daily basis. There are reasons why I prefer 2. I honestly believe that moe can be defined the Akamatsu way, however it can be nothing more than a core ideal. The definition has to be loose, otherwise "moe is a feeling" loses its relevance. A fansub group once famously translated moe as "turn ons". This is what overusage of the word converges to, which then begs the question why not just use that? Undoubtedly, moe is a slang word and has a history of different readings and precise meanings, which all revolved around very similar things. The core definition "it's a feeling" is useless if this feeling was supposed to be one thing in this era and another in that era. From a linguistic standpoint it is pointless to struggle to reach consensus, it is a slang word after all, and as such it will always change to the whims of the fandom, but that doesn't mean the trail on how it's been used has been completely forgotten. We know which shows were moe in the 90's, we know which ones were moe in 00's, we know which shows are moe now. We know which shows include moe elements, we know which shows are built with a checklist in mind. This is why I say understanding the word is a matter of animation literacy. There's no reason to feign ignorance. Those who are literate can use the word and others who are literate will understand. If they don't understand, they will sooner than later open a thread such as this. Maybe it is just my own limited experience, but every time I hear this I think to myself, these people suffer from persecution complex. |
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2013-05-04, 07:45 | Link #142 | ||
On a mission
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It's like someone posted something decent and you're like "lol [random logical fallacy]" while skirting the issue. I'm pretty sure that's a fallacy in itself. Of course, since you're quoting thin air, your goalposts are on the other side of the street too. Quote:
Furthermore, as with all bashing involving generalizations, there's obviously going to be a level of defensiveness shown. It would be like if someone said all anime was porn for immature adults with pedophilic tendencies, naturally many an anime fan would not respond so nicely.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-05-04 at 07:57. |
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2013-05-04, 08:12 | Link #143 |
Last Engage
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Florida
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Many times when an anime is called moe by someone, there's usually another word like "generic" or "unoriginal" or "pandering" attached to it, or something else trying to imply that the shows are somehow not "legitimately" good. Of course I'd get tired of that after a while.
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2013-05-04, 08:47 | Link #144 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I actually agree with Synaesthetic here. A word that has no clear meaning is absolutely pointless. It has become more of a fad than anything else.
The anime industry itself (and anything related) started abusing the word because it was the "cool word" of the moment. The term spread to the west where some people were happy to spread this "cool word" from Japan, they thought they knew what it meant, but they actually didn't, they just had their own interpretations, thus creating even more confusion. At one point when people started to mix all these many different interpretations you ended up getting some kind of amorphous concept that isn't specific for anything anymore. All that remains is the cool word.
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2013-05-04, 08:50 | Link #145 | |
reading #hikaributts
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2013-05-04, 08:54 | Link #146 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
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For example there are debates on whether "anime" should be considered "japanese animation" or "an animation style originated from Japan". Both of them are pretty clear definitions and both of them are very specific. However with "moe" you don't have any clear definition to begin with.
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2013-05-04, 08:57 | Link #147 | ||
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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edit: let's use this somewhat jokingly Quote:
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2013-05-04, 09:07 | Link #148 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Some definitions proposed have already words for them like "cute" "adorable" which would make the use of a new word merely a "cool" factor. "I could call her cute, but if I call her moe is cooler". "I could call it popularity contest, or beauty contest, but let's call it saimoe!" In contrast the use of terms like "anime" has an arguably practical function. it is necessary to make a clear distinction between a certain animation and another. The same is true for "hentai" and "manga". But what's the purpose of the word "moe" if it doesn't distinguish anything precise anymore?
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2013-05-04, 09:11 | Link #149 | |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Would that make those words useless? Personally i don't think so, because you still have some kind of idea what those mean despite that not everyone uses those words in the same way. |
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2013-05-04, 09:34 | Link #150 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I think it should be clear now that the problem is not that we don't have a defined list of specific things that are universally considered moe, but that we don't have a specific definition of moe to begin with. For all those things you have mentioned people only debate on which adheres to the acknowledged definitions. For example girl A says "Brad Pit is cool" and girl B says "No Brad Pit isn't cool" but they both mean the same thing when they use the word "cool". While when someone says "Nadia is moe" and another says "No Nadia isn't moe" you're not even sure if they mean the same thing, and they probably don't.
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2013-05-04, 09:49 | Link #151 | ||
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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I still don't have an idea if Brad pitt is either "great", "awesome" (which are by the way just as as vague as "cool") or "popular "and these days even a nice or laidback person are also considered "cool". If we go back to when the word originated we also get meanings such as rebelious or tough . And i still haven't gotten to every possible meaning of the word "cool". |
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2013-05-04, 12:52 | Link #153 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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This has nothing to do with "animation literacy", whatever that means. It has everything to do with semantics, and the willingness to boil down characters and shows to nothing more than often ill-defined "moe elements", which inevitably leads to derision on that basis. I don't have a persecution complex. This is something that actually happens. |
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2013-05-04, 13:36 | Link #154 | |
On a mission
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And things can be very wide indeed. MD Geist and Cowboy Bebop can be considered both sci-fi, but you're certainly not going to convince anyone that they are the same, or that sci-fi is misogynistic just because MD Geist was. Likewise, it's unfair to use something like K-on as something indicative of all anime that has moe.
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2013-05-04, 13:53 | Link #155 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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I honestly don't understand this whole "you know what it is, I know what it is, and we just have to admit it" argument. If it were so clear, that'd be great! I'd be thrilled if we could just have a sticky post somewhere and say once and for all "This is moe anime" and not need yet another thread like this! But it isn't that clear at all. It refers to this vague amorphous blob of a concept that kinda sorta has inferred meaning but no fixed constraints. Even those who are "literate" can't really agree on what exactly it is, and use conflicting definitions all the time. Are you the expert that's going to unite the fandom under one common meaning and understanding under the guise of "animation literacy"? Because that'd be just swell. I personally happen to believe it's a lost cause, not by choice or desire, but by experience in seeing these debates play out endlessly over the years. But hey, go ahead: prove me wrong. This isn't "snark", it's exhaustion from this never-ending argument.
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2013-05-04, 13:56 | Link #156 | ||||
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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I know a lot of shows that have only a nugget of let's say sci-fi elements, and while we can argue whether the show falls into the sci-fi genre, we will all agree that the show has sci-fi elements. But by the same principle, when a show overwhelmingly dabbles in sci-fi elements and concepts, there's nothing to stop us from saying its genre is sci-fi. There are clear-cut and not-so-clear-cut examples. Same goes for moe. To say that a show with a lineup of girls consisting of a tsundere, yandere, whateverdere isn't a moe show, THAT is feigning ignorance. Perhaps something like, I don't know, Madoka isn't clear cut. Is it a moe show? Is it not? I don't think this question is that relevant. But does it have moe elements? Absolutely. Now, if any of you has the balls to say otherwise, then I'm done with this discussion. Last edited by cyth; 2013-05-04 at 14:11. |
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2013-05-04, 14:12 | Link #157 | |
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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Now, to be fair, I don't really have a single exacting definition of moe. Because I take the approach that a definition of a word should reflect its actual usage. And there's several definitions of moe out there, most of which accurately reflect some common usage of the term. This should also make it clear why I dislike the definition you advance: it only reflects a small portion of actual usage! And yes, that includes my usage - when I say I'm a moe fan, what I'm really trying to say is something along the lines of "I'm a fan of (usually otaku oriented) media with a strong emphasis on cute girls, be they Hitagi type or Nadeko type". Since no single definition captures all common usage of the term, I advise people to know multiple uses and just role with it. Which is what I did in that previous post: I knew what kind of characters you meant, so I wrote what I thought about them.
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2013-05-04, 14:17 | Link #158 | ||||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Listen, this feels like your way of making everybody else but you and people who agree with you seem ignorant. Quote:
What I meant by derision was that the term "moe show" is usually applied to four-girl comedies in an attempt to reduce all such shows to a single, easily-dismissed category, which other people in this thread have also commented on. Harem shows are rarely so categorized, because to quite a few people, "moe shows" can't contain male characters at all. According to your definition, any show that relies on classic character archetypes is a "moe show". That's... I'm sorry, no, that's ridiculous. Like tototum stated, "bishoujo show" is a far more applicable term that doesn't have the same baggage, and look how it's fallen out of use as "moe" has become a popular phrase. Quote:
That's a wonderful way to argue! I'm proud of you. Quote:
Saying "I like moe shows", for most people, will instantly remove Bakemonogatari and like works from consideration. |
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2013-05-04, 14:33 | Link #159 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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As things are now If I said "moe" I'd probably wouldn't communicate what I mean at all, since the other person would think about something completely different. In the end I can only agree with what Relentless Flame said. It's a lost cause.
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2013-05-04, 14:35 | Link #160 | |
On a mission
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I think one thing is clear. Sometimes definitions can be disputed, but sometimes when a certain hard definition is imposed on us, that it feels like that proponents are forced to play in their field. So it's not really about picking and choosing definitions. It's about refusing to play on a rigged battlefield where someone has already declared themselves the winner. It can just be seen here, through the circular arguments and appeal to emotion made in this very thread and elsewhere, of which I'm just not very impressed of. It's not good to slander a fanbase. One should form logical arguments and be more specific, so insulting them no longer counts as slander. I actually try to do that for quite a lot of situations
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