(L+CR) Toaru Hikuushi e no Koiuta (The Pilot's Love Song)

[hoarfrost]

Flashbacks: The Anime.

Anyway, not really feeling the drama here, mainly because I'm finding the characters unrelatable. As for Karl, well, sorry dude but your parents were monarchs and to me that's reason enough they deserved to die.

I will be very bemused if this ends up like I think it will, with Karl being restored to the throne. I wish fantasy as a genre was not so reactionary.

[Flower]

Another excellent ep... I must admit that I teared up when Kal-el was taken up in an airplane for the first time.

Also the last scene with Claire being shown on screen gave me chills - it looks like she knew exactly what she was doing, and honestly came across as a little cold blooded for a sec. Emotionally it is hard to reconcile that with how she has been presented so far, though intellectually I can theoretically guess some ways it might be consistent... Then again, other than the few cloaked hints in this ep we really know zilch about her.

Was kinda surprised that what seemed to be a pv at the end of ep 3 of Nina meeting Karl in prison when he was still a lad did not show up. Am beginning to wonder whether or no it foreshadowed material in other upcoming eps or whether I just totally misinterpreted what I saw?

[bones]

That's the weird thing about this whole revolution. Karl's parents were portrayed as bad monarchs who abused their subjects but what I've seen of them do not fit that image. Then we have Nina Viento who proclaims herself to be delivering justice and who backed a noble whose sole motivation was revenge.

It feels like Nina Viento is nothing more than a puppet made to put on a performance for the people. The revolution was supposed to wipe out the monarchy and institute a republic so why are there still nobles around.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by bones

That's the weird thing about this whole revolution. Karl's parents were portrayed as bad monarchs who abused their subjects but what I've seen of them do not fit that image. Then we have Nina Viento who proclaims herself to be delivering justice and who backed a noble whose sole motivation was revenge.

It feels like Nina Viento is nothing more than a puppet made to put on a performance for the people. The revolution was supposed to wipe out the monarchy and institute a republic so why are there still nobles around.

Yeah - agree with this in general, though it is possible that there were circumstances that "allowed" Nina Viento to be more able to be controlled which we do not know about yet....

Originally Posted by hoarfrost

...sorry dude but your parents were monarchs and to me that's reason enough they deserved to die.

followed up by

Originally Posted by hoarfrost

...I wish fantasy as a genre was not so reactionary.

Originally Posted by MontyAI

Why not start the series with childhood Karl? I've been getting annoyed by those many flashbacks since the last few episodes.

Hmm ... the flashback system has been working for me so far. Not sure why they opted to go this route of presentation, unless it is simply following how the source material presented the story?

[LeoXiao]

I enjoyed the Princess and the Pilot, but it wasn't a great film in any way other than the visuals, which were like 9.5/10. The characters were very archetypal and the scripting incredibly standard.

Spoiler for ending:

I didn't mind the ending (not everything has to have the guy and girl get together at the end, people), but

the way the whole film was executed, despite its imaginative setting, strong potential, and beautiful art, didn't really make for a memorable work. The film feels like it tried to be Castle in the Sky but didn't quite make it.

From reading the comments here, I don't have much hope for the series ether. It's too bad since the setting and theme is otherwise interesting.

[hoarfrost]

Originally Posted by Flower

Yeah - agree with this in general, though it is possible that there were circumstances that "allowed" Nina Viento to be more able to be controlled which we do not know about yet....



followed up by







Hmm ... the flashback system has been working for me so far. Not sure why they opted to go this route of presentation, unless it is simply following how the source material presented the story?

I don't see how wanting monarchs to be overthrown is reactionary. It's the opposite in fact. What you typically get in high fantasy is the idea that monarchs are these beautiful, kindly, benevolent rulers who are greatly troubled by the plight of their people. It's even worse in anime as the Japanese never once lost reverence for their emperor. It is funny how you will see elected politicians in anime portrayed as greedy sleazeballs and monarchs as objective and selfless, considering that one of these groups is accountable to deliver results and the other isn't.

You are sort of getting the same thing here with Karl's mother as practically a Christ like figure in the face of rabid mobs of peasants. Maybe we will get the other side later, most likely in a flashback.

[Tenzen12]

-This episode realy brought back memories on Princess and the Pilot.
- Personaly I wouldn't mind even if whole show focused on these siblings only. I find their interaction far more interesting than Karl x Clair romance.
-That said even if I don't particulary like Clair, I find quite interesting that when she switch to Nina mode her personality looks like changed too.

Originally Posted by hoarfrost

I don't see how wanting monarchs to be overthrown is reactionary. It's the opposite in fact. What you typically get in high fantasy is the idea that monarchs are these beautiful, kindly, benevolent rulers who are greatly troubled by the plight of their people. It's even worse in anime as the Japanese never once lost reverence for their emperor. It is funny how you will see elected politicians in anime portrayed as greedy sleazeballs and monarchs as objective and selfless, considering that one of these groups is accountable to deliver results and the other isn't.

You are sort of getting the same thing here with Karl's mother as practically a Christ like figure in the face of rabid mobs of peasants. Maybe we will get the other side later, most likely in a flashback.

Actualy there was always plenty of benevolent feudal lords and many of them would be elected by it's former vassals for parlament and other political position when constitution changed. Also Monarchy itself isn't bad and in many ways it's more effective to adress various issues.

[Flower]

It is one thing to say all monarchs deserve to be overthrown and another to say they all should die simply for being monarchs.

Please realize that I am not here saying one system of political rule is inherently better than the other. The seeds for corruption lie within each person, and no matter the system of governance it is subject to abuse as a result.

Similarly one should realize that there will always be those who are disgruntled with any kind of governance no matter what external form it takes - the seeds for this also lie in every person.

I simply do not like the idea that anyone deserves to die simply because of the system of governance itself istead of whether or no they do their job poorly.

And thus far in the anime there have been indications that the main reason for the overthrow being able to take place was because of a personal grudge of another noble.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by hoarfrost

Flashbacks: The Anime.

Anyway, not really feeling the drama here, mainly because I'm finding the characters unrelatable. As for Karl, well, sorry dude but your parents were monarchs and to me that's reason enough they deserved to die.

I will be very bemused if this ends up like I think it will, with Karl being restored to the throne. I wish fantasy as a genre was not so reactionary.

So you're saying that because Karl is the child born out of a monarchy he in some way deserves all the childhood trauma and pain he has had to go through. When in fact he never did a single thing to personally wrong to any of the peasantry.

Please explain because I don't see how a little kid deserves to watch his family be torn apart and later sentenced to be executed for whatever crimes his family may or may not have committed.

[hoarfrost]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

-This episode realy brought back memories on Princess and the Pilot.
- Personaly I wouldn't mind even if whole show focused on these siblings only. I find their interaction far more interesting than Karl x Clair romance.
-That said even if I don't particulary like Clair, I find quite interesting that when she switch to Nina mode her personality looks like changed too.



Actualy there was always plenty of benevolent feudal lords and many of them would be elected by it's former vassals for parlament and other political position when constitution changed. Also Monarchy itself isn't bad and in many ways it's more effective to adress various issues.

The idea of a benevolent lord is similar to the idea of a benevolent slave master. No matter how kind and accommodating you are, the power relationship itself is fundamentally corrupt.

That's why I have yet to empathize with Karl at all. He appears to lack any sense of perspective on the matter. I can understand being angry as a child, with the memory still fresh. But he's had years to think about this from another angle, living life with the working class for the first time ever. Surely by this point he's acquired some nuance?

No, all he can think of is killing Nina Viento. Which might even make sense, if she was the one who orchestrated the revolution or even killed his parents. But she isn't, so his plan is short-sighted and half-hearted, so I can't even be impressed by the dedication or attention to detail.

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

So you're saying that because Karl is the child born out of a monarchy he in some way deserves all the childhood trauma and pain he has had to go through. When in fact he never did a single thing to personally wrong to any of the peasantry.

Please explain because I don't see how a little kid deserves to watch his family be torn apart and later sentenced to be executed for whatever crimes his family may or may not have committed.

Which do you think is more tragic, that one boy from a pampered background has to watch his parents die, or that millions languish without self-determination? Let's put things in perspective here. Setting aside whether the new government is a perfect republic or not (no country is, even France, Britain, and America took time to become truly representative) that's definitely an egg I'd be willing to crack for democracy.

I can't say I sympathize with the rebels as I don't yet know what they are about, but I can say with all certainty that I feel absolutely nothing for the deposed monarchs.

[Tenzen12]

Sure ancient Greece was full of benevolent slavemasters, to be honest I wouldn't even particulary mind to be born as slave here.

Any constitution that is good for people is good one. If it happen to monarchy there is no problem with it. In first place democracy is natural evolution of it so claiming it's bad is same like labeling evil own grandma. And let's be honest any politician hold power over fellow humans regardless whether it's monarch or senator.

Only way to get rid such "corruption" would pure anarchy.

Originally Posted by hoarfrost

Which do you think is more tragic, that one boy from a pampered background has to watch his parents die, or that millions languish without self-determination? Let's put things in perspective here. Setting aside whether the new government is a perfect republic or not (no country is, even France, Britain, and America took time to become truly representative) that's definitely an egg I'd be willing to crack for democracy.

Accidentaly Britain is still monarchy and America has strong president mandate, which isn't that much different from that of monarch. If these are most representative cases it doesn't support your point well.

[Flower]

Well, it appears that hoarfrost and I (and other posters, perhaps) will just have to agree to disagree in this case.

He has his own feelings and thoughts on the matter and we have ours.

Let's not let the thread get too derailed as a result, okay?

[hoarfrost]

I don't want to derail the thread so I will just give my ending opinion:

It appears to me that the people were suffering under Karl's father, and in a monarchy they had no recourse except rebellion. Monarchs refuse to subject themselves to popular recall, therefore in a sense they doom themselves to violent death. I would be impressed with Karl if he became intelligent enough to understand this, rather than just forgiving Nina because her alter ego is totally moe.

Until we find out that Karl's' parents were rulers who actively brought about good, lasting changes in society I will be firmly set in my opinion.

[FlareKnight]

All I can say looking at the series to this point is that I do feel for what Karl went through there.

No matter how good or bad his parents were as rulers there are multiple sides to the issues. Usually get the perspective of the noble rebellion getting rid of corrupt monarchs, but the flashbacks in the first couple episodes were more colored to a helpless monarch attacked by the stupid rabble. A group that seemed to exchange their blind following of monarchs to their blind following of Nina Viento....

Sadly just about every system has its flaws. Can't avoid the problem that people ruling over people will have potential for corruption and tragedy.

But yeah will see where the story actually goes from here.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Personally, I loved this episode. I loved the restrained atmosphere. I loved the restrained relationship between Kal-El and Claire. I loved the relative absence of hysteria, and the way the incident resolved naturally.

And I especially loved the surprising fact that it was Claire/Nina who first realized who Kal-El might be. Her apparent "personality change" might just have been the director showing us how she has to appear when she is Nina. Time will tell.

I don't necessarily expect a "happy ending." But that's okay.

Recently, I've been seeing the faults of democracy, as opposed to the strengths. Every four years candidates tell us what we want to hear, get elected, and then do what the people who paid for their election campaigns wanted them to do, whether it's what they told us or not. And we voters are not reliable, either. In ancient Athens, the people, in their foolish pride, forced their democratic government to continue a war against Sparta that ended up destroying the Athenians' own empire.

But I still agree with Winston Churchill: democracy is the worst political system in the world -- except for all the others.

As for Karl and his parents, you can't blame someone for the situation they were born into. Karl's mental journey is still in progress. And I suspect that his real father may not have been evil, just not a great ruler. Perhaps the guy who betrayed him was a minister keeping the facts from him. It will be interesting to find out who is really in charge of the new "Republic." It certainly isn't Claire.

I thought Hanae Natsuki and (especially) Yuuki Aoi both did fine jobs here, and I was surprised at how much I liked Taketatsu Ayana's performance as Ariel.

[Gundamx]

Am I the only one who think Nina Viento been exiled?

If people think she is the hero who save them -> people will vote to her -> corrupt nobles can say she is still young
-> but when she grow up -> they start to fear losing their power -> so they exiled her to that flying island which will never come back (low chance of coming back)

[Tenzen12]

It's possible, even if she was just puppet, she is still powerfull symbol who people belive in. Get rid of her make quite good sense especialy if people behind revolution are as paranoid as most of villains.

In other hand Isle is expected to encounter tought opposition on their way. So she could be used as powerfull weapon in such case instead of political reasons.

Or it could both.

[bones]

Well, given that the higher ups in the military are so worried about an impending threat that they're accelerating the training for the pilots must mean that they know something's out there.

[Arya]

I also loved this episode. I usually don't like flashbacks episodes, but this one was well done and I felt for the little Karl. So seeing his new sisters being so kind to him, even if in a silly way, was heartwarming. I'm liking even Ariel now.
On the other hand they keep to the minimum the Claire / Karl moments, but that was fine. I really appreciated, or better say, I keep appreciating that Claire is this well rounded character despite having this moe personality. Condition the latter that usually excludes the former. If it's due to the fact that she has more than one personality is yet to be seen, so don't bother me I'm now curious to see her flashbacks.

The only little flaw I saw, apart from the fact that the episode needed like 10 extra minutes at least, is that, well, Claire could have died and so Nina Vento, so I would have expected some more general concern from the higher ups.

The play of the revolution was a down to earth and sad touch. Giving us at the same time a probably distorted insight of what the people thought of the fallen monarchy. I mean, plays like that could easily be used for propaganda. On the other hand the way Claire changed into Nina didn't give away too much about her latter persona.

Anyways as I said for the previous episode if the monarchy was really a bad one (for anime standard) it would be nice for a change, it would force karl to understand a far greater level of complexity (politics and economics circumstances and what not) than just "I forgive her because she was just a puppet and I love her so much ... oh, and my mother told me so as her last wish".
Since this eventuality is impossible to be seen due to time restrains probably they could go with some middle ground resolution. Looking at the preview it could be that due to the monarchy something happened to Claire to hold a grudge against the monarchs that later on faded away being her forced to participate actively to the revolution.

[VTHokiePride]

I really liked this episode and was pretty surprised that Claire was Nina Viento. Well that escalated quickly.

Originally Posted by Arya

I also loved this episode. I usually don't like flashbacks episodes, but this one was well done and I felt for the little Karl. So seeing his new sisters being so kind to him, even if in a silly way, was heartwarming. I'm liking even Ariel now.
On the other hand they keep to the minimum the Claire / Karl moments, but that was fine. I really appreciated, or better say, I keep appreciating that Claire is this well rounded character despite having this moe personality. Condition the latter that usually excludes the former. If it's due to the fact that she has more than one personality is yet to be seen, so don't bother me I'm now curious to see her flashbacks.

The only little flaw I saw, apart from the fact that the episode needed like 10 extra minutes at least, is that, well, Claire could have died and so Nina Vento, so I would have expected some more general concern from the higher ups.

The play of the revolution was a down to earth and sad touch. Giving us at the same time a probably distorted insight of what the people thought of the fallen monarchy. I mean, plays like that could easily be used for propaganda. On the other hand the way Claire changed into Nina didn't give away too much about her latter persona.

Anyways as I said for the previous episode if the monarchy was really a bad one (for anime standard) it would be nice for a change, it would force karl to understand a far greater level of complexity (politics and economics circumstances and what not) than just "I forgive her because she was just a puppet and I love her so much ... oh, and my mother told me so as her last wish".
Since this eventuality is impossible to be seen due to time restrains probably they could go with some middle ground resolution. Looking at the preview it could be that due to the monarchy something happened to Claire to hold a grudge against the monarchs that later on faded away being her forced to participate actively to the revolution.

My guess is that there were more people like her with the abilities and what not. The monarchy found out and begin a secret war against them and hunted them to extinction leaving Claire the only survivor.