Fate/Zero - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[mAc Chaos]

Originally Posted by biodude711

Soldiers will do that IF the risk of doing so isn't going to lead to more casualties in terms of both fellow soldiers and civilians.

That risk is always there, especially if they go back in to save them. They just don't care. That's what makes it a heroic action.

[brandon279]

Originally Posted by jeroz

Would Kayneth find another way to screw up Kiritsugu even after that stage? Considering that he came back from completely paralysed with the backhand dealing, chances are that he will be back with another servant. Had Kayneth just forfeited and seek protection from the church without trying to get back to the game, he probably would've lived. He is a talented mage with lots of hidden resources, what if he comes back later and stabs Kiritsugu from the back?

no because he has no seals to make a new contract.

while being paralyzed?
and again, giving a promise (safty) while he intends to break before making it means: bastard.

Kiritsugu had been on the battlefield for many times, he knows when to take his chances and when not to. Take it this way, if he's the one that's on the plane, he would ask Natalia to blow up the plane for him as well. It's just that there as not yet been a situation where his self-sacrifice would make a difference to millions.

did Natali ask?

[brandon279]

Originally Posted by lightsenshi

Anyone else starting to feel like they're watching Evangelion: The Grail War? Does every character have to be traumatized? -.-

i second that, except the 2 British masters and Tosohaka, they were the only non traumatized masters.

[brandon279]

Originally Posted by Craxuan

Let's suppose that he decided to do things the hard way and let Natalie do her stuff. So she lands the plane safely, but one zombie - or bees, I don't actually remember - somehow some way got out and start turning people into zombies. Then, they clean up the job and everything is okay, Natalie is saved.
.

actually, the bees were isolated in the plane, all tou need is to get out Natali from the cabinet which doesnt contain bees, then blow/burn/whatever the plane afterward.

the idea is: bowing the plane in the air was the easiest option for Kiristugu.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by brandon279

no because he has no seals to make a new contract.

irrelevant. Kirei had no seals after forcing Assassin to fight Rider, yet he received a full set without Risei's implication. It is known part that Master are a threat, regardless if they no longer have servant and/or command spells.

while being paralyzed?
and again, giving a promise (safty) while he intends to break before making it means: bastard.

Being paralyzed doesn't mean anything. Hell, even Kariya is literally a walking corpse, yet Berserker is a huge threat nonetheless.
And nothing stops Kayneth using other "methods": however crippled he was, he still killed Risei, and nothing would stop him to plot with Sola (unlike him, she still has her magic circuit, and even without her right hand, could potentially be a huge problem).

Originally Posted by brandon279

actually, the bees were isolated in the plane, all tou need is to get out Natali from the cabinet which doesnt contain bees, then blow/burn/whatever the plane afterward.

the idea is: bowing the plane in the air was the easiest option for Kiristugu.

That's assuming Natalia would be able to land -properly- the airbus on the ground, which is unlikely: a cessna is absolutely nothing close to an Airbus. Also, you would need a full squad of the church/mage association to deal with that, which would require time to call forth (and both organization would kill Natalia either way: MA would because she would have critical intel about Bolsack, Church would suspect her to be infected).

[brandon279]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

But in real life, solders go back into war zones to save stranded comrades all the time, even though they're putting themselves at risk.

thats because the soldiers are sane.

[brandon279]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Wrong statement: Kiritsugu -wanted- to be a hero of justice, but he perfectly knows he can't achieve such ideal, and went on a pragmatic path, which literally broke him as he had to forsake people closer to him for unknown numerous humans. He never pretends to be a hero, even if it was his prior inspiration. This is the very key part that defines his character and the reason why he made such explanations to Iri after killing Kayneth.

what is the wrongness in my statement again?

what we both see is that he is not hero and he does what he does because his dream to be a hero. so what was wrong in my statement again?

my statement is:
the heroism is sacrificing yourself, not deceiving the others while sacrificing them.
for that (the deceiving) i think Kiristugu is a bastard.

You've made a severe misconception here: this case is by no means any close to a virus outbreak contained in a aircraft. It is basically a plane full of undead that can just spread like the plague, should a single one of them is let loose. That leads to huge issues since it is by no means a regular affliction, AND the fact normal people would be clueless about that.

you say it is not a virus but you refer to the case as plague.
airports can quarantine planes, and in this case all they need to is: leave the passengers door closed, easy.

i repeat, the episode issue is: Kiristugue uses the easiest to solve matters.

Wrong: as stated already, any master without their seals -still- are eligible for the grail, should another Servant is without its master. Kirei is the proof of that: he consumed all his command spells AND lost assassin, YET, the grail bestowed him 3 additional command spells (despite -no- servant was free at that given time).
That is the hard evidence that Kayneth could be a threat if he is not outright killed.

wrong wrong wrong, why every of yours starts like that?

in fact you must use a seal to forge a new contract, Kiri acquired a whole bunch of new seals from his father, watch the episode again

[Ithekro]

Logic would suggest the needs of the many (the people of New York City) outweigh the needs of the few (Natilie and Kerry). Thus the logical solution is the blow the plane up. One life for millions.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by brandon279

what is the wrongness in my statement again?

Confronting Kiritsugu with "definition" of Heroism is what I consider wrong, since the character and circumstances do not play in there. So summarizing him due to the fact he goes against such definition is the odd part.

you say it is not a virus but you refer to the case as plague.
airports can quarantine planes, and in this case all they need to is: leave the passengers door closed, easy.

I used the plague as a reference to how pandemic it would be.
The stark difference with a virus is the fact the dead are much more problematic than a simple virus as not only there is no cure, but any casualty will increase the number of the dead to deal with (along the fact they can move, cause damage and aim directly any living being within their range). Simply speaking: the very moment there is an opening in the plane, and your usual zombie horror show -will- happen.

This goes with the huge problem we have at hand: there is absolutely -no- guarantee that Natalia can make a safe landing with an airbus. Should there is a single break in the aircraft plane, it is over.

wrong wrong wrong, why every of yours starts like that?

in fact you must use a seal to forge a new contract, Kiri acquired seals from his father, watch the episode again

That's because you don't have your facts straight: I invite you to watch again Episode 12: Kirei got his command seals -restored- by the grail after his little chat with Gilgamesh. That was the will of the grail, and it is only WAY later he got the seals from his father.
So, any master can potentially receive seals out of nowhere, should the grail consider them worthy.

Also, for your instance, no, command spells aren't absolutely needed for a contract: the CS are meant to be used as absolute authority on the Servant and can be used as miracles as well. The problem is that there is little chance for the Servant to obey a master if they no longer have any CS.

[brandon279]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

irrelevant. Kirei had no seals after forcing Assassin to fight Rider, yet he received a full set without Risei's implication. It is known part that Master are a threat, regardless if they no longer have servant and/or command spells.

yeah yea, a paralyzed magic less master whoose wife is bleeding to death and lacks an arm is so dangerous that you kill them even when you ARE promising them safety.

are defending for the sake of defense?

Being paralyzed doesn't mean anything. Hell, even Kariya is literally a walking corpse, yet Berserker is a huge threat nonetheless.
And nothing stops Kayneth using other "methods": however crippled he was, he still killed Risei, and nothing would stop him to plot with Sola (unlike him, she still has her magic circuit, and even without her right hand, could potentially be a huge problem).

yea yea a master with magic circuit and servant is the same as paralyzed non magic servant less and seal less master.

you intend to make me laugh, right?

That's assuming Natalia would be able to land -properly- the airbus on the ground, which is unlikely: a cessna is absolutely nothing close to an Airbus. Also, you would need a full squad of the church/mage association to deal with that, which would require time to call forth (and both organization would kill Natalia either way: MA would because she would have critical intel about Bolsack, Church would suspect her to be infected).

why unlikely?

their reaction time was good in the island so what about a city?

she moved without detection from them in the island so what prevents her from doing so in airport?

[brandon279]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Logic would suggest the needs of the many (the people of New York City) outweigh the needs of the few (Natilie and Kerry). Thus the logical solution is the blow the plane up. One life for millions.

thats if there are no other options, but there are.

[mAc Chaos]

Well, it's not like Kiritsugu relishes it. The whole point is that he's basically traumatized from the island incident and "overcorrected" by going way too far the other way.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by brandon279

yeah yea, a paralyzed magic less master whoose wife is bleeding to death and lacks an arm is so dangerous that you kill them even when you ARE promising them safety.

are defending for the sake of defense?

I'm actually defining the reason why masters kill each other: vainquishing the servant is not enough, and having a master alive can lead to more complications in the long run.
Regardless how crippled a master is, -if- they manage to gain the control of a servant, they can be a threat. That's actually what happened with Kirei, even though he is already a threat by himself.

yea yea a master with magic circuit and servant is the same as paralyzed non magic servant less and seal less master.

you intend to make me laugh, right?

Having a faulty Magic Circuit doesn't mean they cannot supply a servant. Magic circuit itself is rendered useless in term of using magecraft. However, it doesn't stop the individual to produce prana, which is the only thing needed for the Servant.
Therefore, having the possibility to gain CS afterwards and another servant is completely legit, however unlikely you believe it is.

why unlikely?

their reaction time was good in the island so what about a city?

she moved without detection from them in the island so what prevents her from doing so in airport?

That's because Emiya Noritaka was already in observation by the MA and the Church and both acted after the outbreak started.
Also, you would need them to be there at the airport -before- Natalia lands the airbus, and that's while knowing problem has occured during the flight (so arguably less than the 10 hours of travel).
Let's assume they manage to arrive before she does, it doesn't prevent the possibility to have a widespread outbreak, because of the bees. Should they manage to contain the plane, they would just destroy everything, Natalia included.

[brandon279]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Confronting Kiritsugu with "definition" of Heroism is what I consider wrong, since the character and circumstances do not play in there. So summarizing him due to the fact he goes against such definition is the odd part.

odd or wrong??
specify.

anyway, his aim is to be hero, so it is necessary to judge him as such.

That's because you don't have your facts straight: I invite you to watch again Episode 12: Kirei got his command seals -restored- by the grail after his little chat with Gilgamesh. That was the will of the grail, and it is only WAY later he got the seals from his father.

watch the episode again, his seals were not restored, they returned, the seals that he didnt use returned because he gained his will to fight.
he regained the will to fight so his seals reappered.
easy.

while in other hand you dont acquire new seals because of the grail, you acquire them from a body, the unused seals of dead masters were stored in Kiri's father body.

So, any master can potentially receive seals out of nowhere, should the grail consider them worthy.

that summarizes your wrongness: no master can acquire seas from nowhere, the grail doesnt give any new seals.

Also, for your instance, no, command spells aren't absolutely needed for a contract: the CS are meant to be used as absolute authority on the Servant and can be used as miracles as well. The problem is that there is little chance for the Servant to obey a master if they no longer have any CS.

command spells are needed to forge new contract with any new servant, without contract the master-less servant gets no mana, without mana that servant disappears, end of matter.

[Craxuan]

The biggest thing that irked me (Other than your fucking - forgive the language - double triple posting) that your constant implication that Kiritsugu wasn't sacrificing himself.

I'd honestly be trapped in an endless cycle of death like the Heroic Spirit Emiya than live a life like Kiritsugu's. The difference of weight between the two kinds of self-sacrifice cannot even compare to each other.

You're supposing that Natalie can pull a miracle and land the plane safely with everything intact, and totally belittling the risk of a zombie apocalypse upon the city. No sane man who truly understand the risks here - something comparable to a third world war or nuclear - would ever let that plane land from the skies and blow it as soon as possible, with or without living passengers on board.

There's no need to pull a real life example, a game will suffice. So there's this protagonist who was plagued by all sorts of gun trouble, and he finds out in the end that the mastermind behind it all was a frail old man who couldn't lift a finger but was so ridiculously rich that he can hire an army to shoot our hero. The contract they've made prevented direct contact but - as Maiya had showed - doesn't stop a third party from interfering. The last thing Kiritsugu needs is a troop of magicians hounding his back when things are hard enough already. You also seem to neglect the existence of Lancer for some reason.

'Their reaction timing was good in the island' Oh, you mean that one time the Church fucking slaughtered the entire island of people regardless they're infected or not? You call that GOOD reaction timing? It can't even be called a GOOD reaction - oh, I must stop. I'll blow my stomach laughing if I take this seriously any longer. Back to Max Payne 3.

EDIT: And oh yes, the Grail does give new seals. When Assassin was murdered by Rider Kirei lost his Command Seals and they went back to the Grail, but the Grail once again bestowed them upon him because he was 'interesting'. The Grail doesn't give more than 7 seals, but the seals can be granted to ANYONE who's seeking the Grail.

[brandon279]

it had been years since i used this forum, is it against the rules to make a reply for each reply?

I'd honestly be trapped in an endless cycle of death like the Heroic Spirit Emiya than live a life like Kiritsugu's. The difference of weight between the two kinds of self-sacrifice cannot even compare to each other.

actually, guardian spirit Emya (he is not heroic spirit) is the end point of Kiristugo had he not abandoned his sick mentality, and the same for adopted son.
and lets not forget what guardian says about his sefl: bastard who must die.


for the rest of post: you deal as: Natai will crash the plane, Natalli will crash the plane without blowing the plane, the bees will survive the crash, a whole lot of assumption with no Indication from Natali that she cant safely land the plane.

the easier option is thinking that there are no other options, it is defense mechanism

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by brandon279

anyway, his aim is to be hero, so it is necessary to judge him as such.

I meant wrong.
Also, it isn't his aim. He wanted to be one, but basically acted on a different path. That's exactly what he implied with his discussion with Iri.
He perfectly knows that being a hero won't allow him to fulfill his objective (hence why he loathes hero), hence why he plays the role of an assassin, and do not believe in heroism, but rather pragmatism, to the point he would embrace all evil, if he can stop everything. So he is willingly going against the path of a true hero, so no it is NOT his aim.

watch the episode again, his seals were not restored, they returned, the seals that he didnt use returned because he gained his will to fight.
he regained the will to fight so his seals reappered.
easy.

No, he used all of his Command Spells. The extra BD scenes and the LN state it so: he used all his 3 command spells to force Assassin in a "do or die" charge against Rider.

that summarizes your wrongness: no master can acquire seas from nowhere, the grail doesnt give any new seals.

As explained before: Kirei had -no seal- while chatting with gilgamesh. Hell, even Gil makes such remarks that with the mention of the grail when Kirei got his seals back. Even Kirei was -surprised- of such occurence, despite he does not have any will to join the war against, until Gil makes his provokating remarks after Kirei received more seals.

command spells are needed to forge new contract with any new servant, without contract the master-less servant gets no mana, without mana that servant disappears, end of matter.

You really don't get your fact straight: the contract itself is simply a link between the Master and the Servant. Past that, prana itself is inherent to both master and servant.
The proof of that: Sola was supplying Lancer with her own prana, despite she didn't make any contract with him at all. She even did that before receiving Kayneth's CS, and Kayneth was still under contract with Lancer after Sola took his CS. So, contract is not necessary between a magus and a servant for the prana supply, and that Command Spells aren't the sole factor of the contract.

[brandon279]

No, he used all of his Command Spells. The extra BD scenes and the LN state it so: he used all his 3 command spells to force Assassin in a "do or die" charge against Rider.

i didnt watch the blue rays

The proof of that: Sola was supplying Lancer with her own prana, despite she didn't make any contract with him at all.

thats because she was there at the summing and she is related to the master and it was with his choice.

to stay in the world you must have a master in order to give you a link to the world or you would disappear no matter how much mana you suck /reserve

a contract must be made.

master-less servant will disappear without contract. contract needs a seal, Karyth lacked seals, lacked servant, lacked circuits, lacked heath, lacked will to fight

if you consider him a danger then babies are danger in your thinking, why ?
because they MAY grow and acquire seals, circuits, weapons, will to fight..... really the is huge line between what is dangerous and what is not, specially for Emya

i see that my words fall on deaf ears, so.....

bye.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by brandon279

thats because she was there at the summing and she is related to the master and it was with his choice.

That doesn't stop the fact the prana supply is -not- dependant of the contract at all, so your point is moot.

to stay in the world you must have a master in order to give you link world or you would disappear no matter how much mana you suck /reserve

a contract must be made.

It has been demonstrated by Caster and his monster that they would be self sufficient if they have enough supply from "somewhere else". What matters with a servant is the prana, regardless where it comes from. Another point, but outside of Fate Zero prove that as well, but going any farther would be a spoiler.

master-less servant will disappear without contract. contract needs a seal, Karyth lacked seals, lacked servant, lacked circuits, lacked heath, lacked will to fight

Except that I proved above that no, you don't need seals or contract for that. And the example of Kirei already proved seals can be still obtained.
In both Zero and Stay Night, it was always mentioned that the best course of action is to kill the master. Not only because they are source of the servant prana, but also because they can always have other contract afterwards, regardless of their CS.

And before you go again with this other point: Even Natalia herself hoped the Airbus would be as easy as a cessna, which is ridiculous from the get go. So as several people already mentioned: chances for her to land the aircraft properly are low.

So instead of claiming you are talking to deaf ears, fix your facts, because it is extremely tiring.

[erneiz_hyde]

Well, I kind of get where brandon comes from though. Simply put: no matter how necessary or "right" Kiritsugu's actions are, that still can't stop him from being a douchebag (think House). It is actually normal to feel repulsed by Kiritsugu's actions because of the seeming lack of human emotions in them.