Macross Delta - Episode 26 [END] Discussion / Poll

[Convoy]

^I agree with your general points, magnuskn. May Windermere die in a storm.

[charles883]

As for me Delta is my most Fav Macross series due to I like character in Delta more than Frontier as well as I like Delta VF more than Frontier. Also I like dogfight more than space battle. Second will be Frontier movie with very close margin like 0.01. For me worst series is Macross 7 especially its movie version Dynamite Explosion,

Sad to see Frejya having shorter lifespan. I think Winderemere will lose the war in the end with Roid and Keith died and most of their fleet destroy and Heinz no longer will use Vars as he experienced that himself

[Elazul]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

I think you meant "Planet Dance" right? because IIRC "TRY AGAIN" was used only in the final battle.

Sorry, my mistake. I thought they started playing "Try Again" halfway through the end. Actually, "Planet Dance" is the worst Macross 7's song for me, and yet it is still way better than anything that came from Delta.

[stray]

So... it really was a will they/won't they shojo manga all along. Which is fine, I dig saccharine occasionally... but I don't understand why they had to drag Mirage and such a gigantic supporting cast along.

Protoculture are very definitely Vajra wannabees. I have no idea where the emotional fold network ends and the delta wave network begins. Or why Var seems to work on either.

It was sort of a fun episode but I'm still pretty disappointed by the series as a whole.

[Triple_R]

After watching this subbed, this is a very tough episode to rate.

There's things that are fantastic about it, and there's things that are really disappointing about it. It reminds me of the famous line from A Tale of Two Cities - "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..."

I'm a little tempted to put aside the "it was the worst of times" side of Delta's finale since I'm more of a half-glass full person, and also since the worst of times is primarily on the antagonist side. Still, those "worst of times" really are the worst... In any event, I'm going to look at the pros and cons of this finale:


"It was the best of times"

1. Great final episode for Mikumo, for Hayate, for Freya, for Walkure as a whole, and for HayaFrey as a pairing. In other words, six of the seven main protagonists had an almost perfect ending for them. It's particularly impressive how they managed to balance Freyja as Walkure member with Freyja as Mikumo's friend with Freyja as Hayate's lover. They somehow managed to balance all of that, without any of it seeming overly shortchanged.

2. Good finale for Mirage, Arad, Chuck, and Johnson. Not great, but not bad. Mirage is helped a little by looking really cute in her flashback as a kid in a plane.

3. Audiovisuals were excellent, as usual. A real treat for the eyes and ears.

4. The final Walkure and HayaFrey scenes were almost perfect. Beautiful.

5. Roid's plan was a good one for a "final boss" character type. This much I'll give to the Windermere side.

6. I'll give this to Bogue - I liked his response to Keith's death. I liked how Bogue clearly admired Keith and cared some about him.


"It was the worst of times"

1. Heinz had two seemingly contradictory lines that stood out to me:

"Now that they have witnessed the power of the song of the stars, I will initiate peace talks." - Heinz

"I do not ask that of you. The UN government must be dealt with eventually." - Heinz, replying to Bogue being angry at the thought of being asked to forgive Walkure.

So, which is it Heinz? Do you want peace, or do you want to keep punishing NUN, possibly to the point of completely obliterating them? That's certainly the vibe I get when an antagonist uses the words "dealt with". Serious mixed signals here.

2. Bogue seems more hurt by Keith's death than Heinz does. Heinz lost his father and his brother. Heinz felt the deaths of thousands as a result of his command. In spite of this, he seems perfectly fine in his final scene. Bizarre. It's like the anime is trying to force a semi-happy end for the Windermere side when that doesn't really make much sense at all. And what makes this even worse is that Windermere would actually have come across better if they expressed more sadness, regret, remorse, and guilt.

3. Yes, the ending was a bit rushed. Some sections seem chaotic to me. For example, what and who exactly is protecting Roid in the final rush after him? It's obviously not the Aerial Knights. Another example is Makina total healing like she did, totally out of nowhere it felt to me. I'm glad Makina bounced back, but this maybe could have been handled more smoothly.

4. I know people might dislike the "no kiss" complaint, but man... Just how perfect would it have been if Freyja and Hayate start kissing just as the lyrics of "Our kiss will link us from one end to the other" started playing? This should be like the easiest slam-dunk in the history of anime. I kinda hope they're going to change this final scene to a kiss for the Blu-Ray version, just to help sales of the Blu-Ray, lol.


So tl;dr Heinz's character seems like a mess to me. Windermere in general isn't much better. However, the protagonist side had an almost perfect finale for them! Wonderful audiovisuals, but chaotic context. Very tough finale to rate.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

1. Great final episode for Mikumo, for Hayate, for Freya, for Walkure as a whole, and for HayaFrey as a pairing. In other words, six of the seven main protagonists had an almost perfect ending for them. It's particularly impressive how they managed to balance Freyja as Walkure member with Freyja as Mikumo's friend with Freyja as Hayate's lover. They somehow managed to balance all of that, without any of it seeming overly shortchanged.

I thought Freyja as Walkure member and Mikumo's friend did get the short end of the stick, specially in the second half of the show. Freyja and Mikumo barely interacted in the second half, and she was sort of isolated from the other Walkure members too.

I also don't agree that this was a great final for Mikumo. The whole plot about her was underdeveloped and ended up feeling tacked on. Her character was underdeveloped too. They only started to humanize her right before she was kidnapped and that was all. The mystery surrounded her had so much potential but was dropped too. Who was the Star Singer, originally? Why does she sing DYRL? Is she the song's original singer? Why did the Protoculture left her on Windermere, and programmed to be controlled by them too? Why did Lady M made a clone of the Star Singer, for what purpose? We got rumors, not the truth. And who the heck is Lady M? Again we only got rumours about her identity. There's so much story to tell about Mikumo. Why put her in this show if they're gonna gloss over it and forget about it?

[Triple_R]

Mikumo's character could have been handled better throughout the 2nd half as a whole, but I'm not sure what more they could have done for her here in this final episode alone.

She looked glorious. She sounded glorious. She eventually managed to change back to Walkure!Mikumo, under her own power. Yes, she needed to hear Freyja reaching out to her in order to do it, but she still did it. And it all ends with a happy tearful reunion between Mikumo and the three other Walkure members from Episode 1. I'm sure Walkure understands that Freyja wants to be with her new boyfriend right now.

Yeah, the mystery side of Mikumo leaves a lot of unanswered questions, but hey, Mikumo does say "music is mystery". Mikumo being mysterious is simply her, just like Freyja being genki is simply her.

But the whole Lady M thing was a silly tease that went nowhere, so I'll agree with you there.

[Kazu-kun]

If nothing else, the effort you're making to like this show is commendable.

[Dark Faith]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

"It was the best of times"

5. Roid's plan was a good one for a "final boss" character type. This much I'll give to the Windermere side.

Normally I'd agree, but after Frontier Roid's plan just felt like "Wait, this again?"

Originally Posted by Triple_R

"It was the worst of times"

1. Heinz had two seemingly contradictory lines that stood out to me:

"Now that they have witnessed the power of the song of the stars, I will initiate peace talks." - Heinz

"I do not ask that of you. The UN government must be dealt with eventually." - Heinz, replying to Bogue being angry at the thought of being asked to forgive Walkure.

So, which is it Heinz? Do you want peace, or do you want to keep punishing NUN, possibly to the point of completely obliterating them? That's certainly the vibe I get when an antagonist uses the words "dealt with". Serious mixed signals here.

I just took it as Heinz wanting to initiate peace talks from a position of power to expose the UN government after the galaxy saw what Windermere was capable of. Just feels to me that he had enough killing once he "felt the wind" of all the NUNS soldiers getting extinguished at once.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

2. Bogue seems more hurt by Keith's death than Heinz does. Heinz lost his father and his brother. Heinz felt the deaths of thousands as a result of his command. In spite of this, he seems perfectly fine in his final scene. Bizarre. It's like the anime is trying to force a semi-happy end for the Windermere side when that doesn't really make much sense at all. And what makes this even worse is that Windermere would actually have come across better if they expressed more sadness, regret, remorse, and guilt.

Agreed. Then again, Bogue was always the emotional type :P
I was very surprised/disappointed at the lack of any meaningful reaction from Heinz once Keith dies.

---

Well, this one's over at last.
I feel it had a very strong first half but then just dragged itself to the finish line.
Loved the songs and some of the characters... the plot, not so much.

It goes down on my list as a 6/10. Pretty mediocre stuff.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by Dark Faith

Normally I'd agree, but after Frontier Roid's plan just felt like "Wait, this again?"

One might also say "after Macross 7 Grace's plan just felt like "Wait, this again?", though Gepelnitch's final version was much more single-use and permanent.

Those of you who mention that Zentradi are very long-lived... is there actually a Macross basis for that? Someone mentioned that on the MW Forums and was corrected by someone else saying that the idea of immortal macron Zents was actually from The Carl Macek Production Which Will Not Be Named.

[Beqa]

I say half Grace here... Grace was gamble for a mind in control of all, Roid was gamble for a collective mind... all human feeling the other, no more war, no more misunderstandings, because they will feel and would understand what feels aggrieved party. Windermere already possessed the most basic version of this idea in their rune and for one moment all the galaxy feel and understand like one.

That is the wish of the Protoculture but their children, all the new humans, are not ready. They will fight, will make a empire and destroy inside, this cicle will continue and can´t be broken.

Or that is the message that the last three macross have been giving me.

[Anh_Minh]

Being expected as it was, the Aerial Knights' last minute "heroism" was more upsetting than I thought it'd be. They get to pretend they have principles, but really, they just didn't want to be robbed of their wills the way they robbed everyone else of theirs. Fuck them all sideways.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

"It was the worst of times"

1. Heinz had two seemingly contradictory lines that stood out to me:

"Now that they have witnessed the power of the song of the stars, I will initiate peace talks." - Heinz

"I do not ask that of you. The UN government must be dealt with eventually." - Heinz, replying to Bogue being angry at the thought of being asked to forgive Walkure.

So, which is it Heinz? Do you want peace, or do you want to keep punishing NUN, possibly to the point of completely obliterating them? That's certainly the vibe I get when an antagonist uses the words "dealt with". Serious mixed signals here.

Hm. Well, he'd probably have wanted to pull the UN's teeth in "peace talks" anyway. And it isn't so strange to have different attitudes when in a position of overwhelming strength and when in a position of... not so much strength.

2. Bogue seems more hurt by Keith's death than Heinz does. Heinz lost his father and his brother. Heinz felt the deaths of thousands as a result of his command. In spite of this, he seems perfectly fine in his final scene. Bizarre. It's like the anime is trying to force a semi-happy end for the Windermere side when that doesn't really make much sense at all. And what makes this even worse is that Windermere would actually have come across better if they expressed more sadness, regret, remorse, and guilt.

Bogue's a creature of selfishness and emotion. He'd put more drama into stubbing his toe than most people would in losing their families in a fire. Heinz's a creature of duty.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Beqa

I say half Grace here... Grace was gamble for a mind in control of all, Roid was gamble for a collective mind... all human feeling the other, no more war, no more misunderstandings, because they will feel and would understand what feels aggrieved party. Windermere already possessed the most basic version of this idea in their rune and for one moment all the galaxy feel and understand like one.

That is the wish of the Protoculture but their children, all the new humans, are not ready. They will fight, will make a empire and destroy inside, this cicle will continue and can´t be broken.

Or that is the message that the last three macross have been giving me.

Protoculture were always (well, after Frontier) WE VAJRA fanclub. They obviously wanted to make his children like them, that's why they created that thing, the Star Singer and Windermerians.

[Convoy]

We saw the Protoculture structures on both Windermere and Ragna power down when the Star Stage exploded. I wonder if that means the sanctum on Windermere is now inoperative or if Heinz can still Var anytime he wants. I certainly hope it's the former.

[Beqa]

Originally Posted by Convoy

We saw the Protoculture structures on both Windermere and Ragna power down when the Star Stage exploded. I wonder if that means the sanctum on Windermere is now inoperative or if Heinz can still Var anytime he wants. I certainly hope it's the former.

Highly impossible for the altar continue operating. At least not to the power required for handling var. Also, without Roid, whom the temple seemed to recognize more than the king, the temple closes possibly itself.

And yeah... the Protoculture have a massive club fanboy of Vajra XD

[Thess]

Heinz doesn't need the ruins to control the cluster. He could subjugate Voldor and other planets before the ruins awoke (which happened in episode 8). It was Walkure and it was Heinz (and the SV) who awoke the ruins to increase the potency of the singing galaxy-wide, Roid only took advantage. It does look like Heinz or any other Windermerian (male... apparently because of the dual rune control thing?) could control that. They would have to sing again for that to happen? But I don't think that should be an issue when Keith delivered his "live for the present" send off message and Heinz got a rune-message from him (flashing runes cop-out) and told everyone to go home. So I don't think he'll try to conquer Ragna again. That's not his goal, anyway.

[Beqa]

Originally Posted by Thess

ThIt was Walkure and it was Heinz (and the SV) who awoke the ruins, Roid only took advantage (when Heinz or any other Windermerian, male... apparently because of the dual rune control thing?) could control that. They would have to sing again for that to happen? But I don't think that should be an issue when Keith delivered his "present is the best line" and Heinz got a rune-message from him and told everyone to go home.

The ruins and temple are different. The temple of time reacted and gave the message about the existence of the final piece to Roid and no one else, they give also understand that the temple is sealed by order of Roid.

Remember the data given by Arad (that strange coincidence * rolls eyes *) that the king and the king had some close control over the singer. If we think carefully Wise and King are two prominent figures, you may join by blood several times ... but hey that ever know for sure.

There are two moral factors that would prevent use the temple (if Heinz can)

1- The boy does not want more war not mor problem.
2-His life is running out and he has a lot a lot to fix if him do not want his people back to suffer another invasion.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Beqa

There are two moral factors that would prevent use the temple (if Heinz can)

1- The boy does not want more war not mor problem.
2-His life is running out and he has a lot a lot to fix if him do not want his people back to suffer another invasion.

Keith just said something like "Live for today, not the past or the future" in a more eloquent way as he fought Roid. Even Bogue moved on past his hatred. It was badly written but that's what happened during their team up.

Second point doesn't matter when all Windermerians have basically fold runes and they can find another singer (look at Freyja, she even overwhelmed Mikumo). It's like thinking there's no more idols after Minmay.

[Beqa]

Originally Posted by Thess

Keith just said something like "Live for today, not the past or the future" in a more eloquent way as he fought Roid. Even Bogue moved on past his hatred. It was badly written but that's what happened during their team up.

Second point doesn't matter when all Windermerians have basically fold runes and they can find another singer (look at Freyja, she even overwhelmed Mikumo). It's like thinking there's no more idols after Minmay.

Certainly, but here is where comes the very simple idea to educate, prepare and ensure your people at least not lose on track soon.

Heinz learned. Frejya learned and hopefully learn all the galaxy. I must however insist on that this will not know until a movie, a good epilogue or next macross .... If there is a next macross.

[Father Hentai]

Watched the episode. And well. Some are expected. Some are well, flipped.

Love triange:
So the main problem about the thress was that none of them were honest about their feelings. Hayate confessed, Mirage confessed, Freyja confessed. Well, a way to solve the problem but isn't really satisfying. But compared to Frontier at least not a real Girls fight for a boy. Instead it's a real triangler with Hayate and Mirage as Freyjas Wings. I first thought Freyja and Mirage were Hayates wings, but this changed in the finale.

Windermere vs. Rest of the Galaxy:
Well, it was obvious that they aren't enemies or at least not the true enemy. It's Macross and it's foreseeable who isn't the enemy from the beginning. Otherwise it would be too easy and from the storytelling too boring. At least from my expectation of Macross franchise.

Windermere has to work up a lot, however, those who have driven the war are dead. On both sides. From my side. NUN has to investigate internally to avoid such things that an MDE can be easily dropped by overwriting the pilots control. At least the high court of NUN must have the power to decide if an MDE must be used. Following the series it feels more like NUN higher ups weren't fully aware of this and instead a false story has been reported.

Windermere has to rebuild their reputation. And maybe the rest has to listen their story. How they felt, when outsiders dropped a bomb on their planet. Please don't tell me about ultimo ratio or collateral damage. No one knows or can tell that it would not have been possible to fight the enemies without MDE and even better without the planetary defense have their own planet garrisoned to defend.

Walküre. Well back together but with the star singer on stage they have to be aware of other enemies maybe.

All in all, Delta was ok. I liked it female characters more compared to Frontier and also the antagonists were a bit funnier to see. Let's see what comes next after delta or how the OVA will look alike when it is planned to be shown.