[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I might just be missing a scene or a point but I'm in a bit of confusion...

Spoiler for Spoilers:

If I'm correct, the moment Ange interceded into October 1986 as per granting of power by Good Ol' Bern was when she jumped from the skyscraper during the Non-Human Tea Party scenes. After this, I assume she jumped to the end of episode 3 to stop Battler from getting tricked into accepting Beatrice, and then after joining them in the MetaWorld, joins with Bern to observe the fourth game of Rokkenjima to discover the truth.

However regarding the scene where it is revealed she survives a jump from a building the conversation goes as if nothing of the sort with Bern ever happened. From a linear perspective of progression if this is even the same building jump I'm seeing, wouldn't somehow follow that, if her experience in investigating Rokkenjima would have occurred strictly between the jump and hitting the ground, the conversation and her knowledge would have changed accordingly?

Or am I reading this wrong, that while Bern did give her the power to go back to 1986 it didn't happen that she went back in time in that moment, that she simply jumped and survived and would eventually go back to Rokkenjima on a later date?

I'm probably being idiotic about this, but when the scene ends in the third non0human tea party with their jump from the roof I sort of assumed they transported then and there to 1986, but it seems I'm sorely mistaken.

I think it was more of; after the jump a meta-Ange was created which turned up at the tea party to stop meta-Battler from being tricked by Beato. Meanwhile her real person back in 1998 fell down the skyscraper and miraculously survived leading her to believe whether he encounter with Bern was a dream or not. The rest is history as the real Ange later decides to "find the truth" at Rokkenjima but this is totally separate from what meta-Ange is doing because the are technically not the same person anymore.

Speaking of which, I don't believe that there is a fake or real Battler. There is only one despite what Beato is trying to say. There is no proof that another Battler exists what is the child of Asumu (for all we know, that could be a lie in itself and that it is assumed that Asumu had a living child *wink wink*).

[Ankoku-chan]

Wow... That was too much epic for one day >_< But, very nice episode! Thank you again, Witch Hunt~!

Thoughts on Ep. 4:

Spoiler:

1. Was Virgilia always this funny? XD

and

2. So I assume that Beato let Battler win?

[Kitsu]

Heh! Fools!! xDD
IT WAS ALL JUST A BIG PHONE PRANK!!

^^

Now being serious... a few thoughts and theories
Jessica killed George. That's why she knew he was dead. Regarding her own death...suicide. That's why she knew what way she would die. It's hard to shot yourself with a shotgun in the head. The repulsion will most likely fling the gun out of your hand when you shoot yourself. I don't think Battler would have searched through properly, he said himself that the scene was very gruesome didn't he? The weapon could have been under her bed or something. She phoned Battler almost going insane and ready to kill herself. Maybe she didn't wanted Battler to know the truth about the murders and all this. So she told him about magic. Without love the truth cannot be seen, was it? Magic is the way Battler wouldn't know that his beloved friends and family killed each other. The same with Kyrie, they wanted to protect Battler from the harsh truth which would have broke him.

Also,
Jessica Ushiromiya killed Kinzo
Why would the servants keep quite about the death of their master? Because Krauss ordered them to? No, I don't think so, the servants that were in contact with Kinzo the most weren't really loyal to Krauss. We heard that Kinzo wasn't really fond of Jessica and had a bad temper. And wasn't it said that he once hit her with a woodensword. (Wasn't that mentin in Episode 1? not sure). Jessica who has a bad temper as well could have kiled the sick Kinzo in accident. This leading the servants to lie and protect her. Especially Kanon and Shannon would lie because of such a reason. I think the same goes even for Genji. He must have understood that Jessica didn't want that to happen and didn't want to destroy her young life. Also I don't think Krauss knew of that, the servants most also have lied to him. But I think Natsuhi knew. That's why she got angry at Eva in Episode 1 as latter denied that Kinzo was still alive.

also about Lamda who said in the
Kanon did not die in an accident
but he also died because of homocide or suicide. So HOW could he die in Episode 1?? The answer is...Kanon didn't die at all.

About Battler's sin
I think it is a sin the Battler Ushiromiya we know commited and I think there is only on Battler. Beatrice said all this to confuse Battler about his existence. Also I thinkBattler is Kyire and Rudolph's son Maybe Asumo had a miscarriage and tricked Kyrie and the others that she gave birth to Battler and Kyrie had the miscarriage. MAybe even with help of a fraction of Kyrie's family.
The sin he commited six years ago. I think there are two sins he could have commited
The one he said himself. Maybe the refusal of the Ushiromiya name did not only bother him and Rudolph but the others of the family as well. Leading to hatred and anger and maybe Kinzo's death.
Or.... Battler cause indirectly the death of Asumo.


Woah Episode 4 sure was fun.

[Ankoku-chan]

I just remembered a question I had:

Spoiler:

"When/where" do Maria and Beato kill Rosa? In the meta-world? That scene seemed kinda thrown in.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

I think it was more of; after the jump a meta-Ange was created which turned up at the tea party to stop meta-Battler from being tricked by Beato. Meanwhile her real person back in 1998 fell down the skyscraper and miraculously survived leading her to believe whether he encounter with Bern was a dream or not. The rest is history as the real Ange later decides to "find the truth" at Rokkenjima but this is totally separate from what meta-Ange is doing because the are technically not the same person anymore.

Speaking of which, I don't believe that there is a fake or real Battler. There is only one despite what Beato is trying to say. There is no proof that another Battler exists what is the child of Asumu (for all we know, that could be a lie in itself and that it is assumed that Asumu had a living child *wink wink*).

Actually I'm sort of believing that they are actually the same, in a way different from game battler and meta battler. When you consider it, Beato did accept that Bern had a new piece and seems to refer to this very same piece that would participate in the metaworld who she accepts as an ally of Battler. Bern specifically did choose her and did tell her that she can observe the events of 1986 as one with powers of a Golden Witch, which would also give her the ability to participate in the metaworld. This would come out that she has the same ability as Beatrice who can seemingly enter the game from the metaworld and directly influence her pieces, an ability meta Battler does not have.

Actually now that I'm in episode 4, my ideas regarding the existence of Multiple Battlers seems to contradict Beatrice's claims of eternal resurrection:

Spoiler for Spoilers:

Now at this point in this episode I'm already unable to conretely differentiate meta Battler from the game Battlers. If say this was a Multiple World Interpretation of quantum physics then we could say that the various game Battlers were parallel worlds of October 4, 1986, and that meta Battler was from the first game allowed to exist in the meta world to observe the various What-If Universes of the original Battler that was their common origin before October 4.

Then again, if we are to believe that Beatrice truly has the power of eternal recurrence as a witch, then how exactly does it follow that she has multiple game Battlers playing and 1 meta Battler as an opponent? If she's using her powers of resurrection strictly to revive pieces and have them play again then clearly she isn't using multiple worlds to create new game boards.

From this line of logic, how then does she have at least 2 Battlers? Does she specifically have the power to even split Battler into 2 different mental entities, one as her opponent and one to eternal revive until the games are over? If she took the Battler of episode 1 as her opponent then where did she get a second Battler as a game piece for continuous revival when everyone dies?

This leads me to believe that she doesn't even have powers of eternal revival at all outside of her metaworld; if anything she's showing multiple worlds of differing Rokkenjimas as each new game board and passing it off as her power of eternal recurrence. The only time she's been able to successfully revive a person for meta Battler to witness was reviving meta Battler himself, and all this occurred in her metaworld. It could easily be given that since her domain is pretty much the essence of herself she has the powers to revive there, but given the quantum contradictions I've suggested above it's as if she doesn't have those powers in the real world, and she's just packaging MWI game boards as her witch powers.

This, in turn, leaves less credence to her claim as a witch.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

also about Lamda who said in the
Kanon did not die in an accident
but he also died because of homocide or suicide. So HOW could he die in Episode 1?? The answer is...Kanon didn't die at all.

Natural death can also work. Of course, I do not like this explanation either, but it is as viable as this. And I really doubt you can fake a death with a stake that reached the lungs.

Also I thinkBattler is Kyire and Rudolph's son Maybe Asumo had a miscarriage and tricked Kyrie and the others that she gave birth to Battler and Kyrie had the miscarriage. MAybe even with help of a fraction of Kyrie's family.

I will say it again, but duh: no, unless Kyrie's narration was fake, you CANNOT fake a miscarriage at all. period. It is physically impossible to do that. Any baby swap is arguably impossible.
Miscarriage itself is the death of the fetus before reaching the critical 20-24 weeks limit. And you obviously cannot wait the 9months before realizing there was miscarriage: it is i-m-p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e (bleeding and ultrasound exams are an obvious reasons for this).

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Heh! Fools!! xDD
also about Lamda who said in the
Kanon did not die in an accident
but he also died because of homocide or suicide. So HOW could he die in Episode 1?? The answer is...Kanon didn't die at all.

Not singling you out because I want to point it out: It's homicide. There's an error in this very discussion where Battler says "homocide" then "homicide" in the next bit of text.

There's also a point toward the end where Battler is referred to as "Batter." I forget where.

[Jan-Poo]

Wasn't Kanon's death stated in red?

About the two Battlers.

1) Battler definitely has no problem saying in red he is Ushiromiya Battler
2) Battler definitely has no problem saying in red Ushiromiya Asumu is Ushiromiya Battler's mother
3) Battler cannot say in red that he is Asumu's son.

How do you solve this conundrum without theorizing the existence of two different Battlers?

[k//eternal]

Oof, lots of new text here. Anyway, regarding Sakutaro...

Spoiler:

I'm thinking that what she saw in the boat captain's store was a Sakutaro plush.

(EDIT: Guess Klash said that too, I didn't see it since there was a lot of stuff.)

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Wasn't Kanon's death stated in red?

About the two Battlers.

1) Battler definitely has no problem saying in red he is Ushiromiya Battler
2) Battler definitely has no problem saying in red Ushiromiya Asumu is Ushiromiya Battler's mother
3) Battler cannot say in red that he is Asumu's son.

How do you solve this conundrum without theorizing the existence of two different Battlers?

"Battler's a girl."

I'd buy the "two Battlers" thing over that, though.

Originally Posted by Ankoku-chan

Wow... That was too much epic for one day >_< But, very nice episode! Thank you again, Witch Hunt~!

Thoughts on Ep. 4:

Spoiler:

1. Was Virgilia always this funny? XD

and

2. So I assume that Beato let Battler win?

1. Given that her "true form" was Kumasawa, you could say she's always been trying, at least.

2. Beato's restrictions are stronger than you might think, because if she uses red to tell Battler how a crime really happened, that's her own loss. As a result, any explanation that is internally consistent and denies magic is sufficient to defeat her, even "minibombs in food" and the like.

Originally Posted by Ankoku-chan

I just remembered a question I had:

Spoiler:

"When/where" do Maria and Beato kill Rosa? In the meta-world? That scene seemed kinda thrown in.

That was a dream Maria was having, which is why it went straight to her waking up in the guesthouse.

[Marion]

I have to wonder - did Kyrie give a stillbirth or miscarriage BEFORE July 15th. If there was a baby swap then it would need to be done on July 15th before Asumu woke up after giving birth. It's impossible to fake miscarriages but if Kyrie was lied to then it would be different.

Example of what I mean:

Kyrie goes to the hospital to give birth
She is put to sleep or drugged to make the experience less painful
Her baby is taken away after being born
Kyrie wakes up and doctors tell she miscarried and that it was a stillbirth or something.

Then she would believe she miscarried or gave a stillbirth. It doesn't have to be that a miscarriage was faked - rather that one never happened to begin with.

Also I have a question about the shed: In Episode 1 didn't they say that the shed could with a master key? Why is the separate key for the shed now if that's the case??

[Jan-Poo]

Well the minibombs in food could be countered without any red truth because it didn't resolve the issue at all. It was stated in red that Maria received the real key and from that point until the time Rosa took it to unlock the chapel the following morning, noone used it.

So even if the minibombs explain how the culprit himself wasn't inside of the chapel, it still doesn't explain how the victims managed to enter.

I think it is more logical to assume that Beatrice just decided to play an act feigning to yeld this game from the start and faked her agony. Actually this what Lambda says.
However Beatrice didn't lose, in the end she decided to use that trump card in the end, so there was no need for her to deny the rest. She just let Battler have his way, because that didn't matter.

To make a chess comparison, it is like letting your opponent eat all your Rooks, your bishops and your queen, just because by doing so he doesn't notice you are going to checkmate him with the knights.

@Marion: Klashikari is gonna snap now XD misscarriage and stillbirth are two different things. Unless Kyrie used the inappropriate word, what you envision couldn't happen at all.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Marion

Example of what I mean:
Kyrie goes to the hospital to give birth
She is put to sleep or drugged to make the experience less painful
Her baby is taken away after being born
Kyrie wakes up and doctors tell she miscarried and that it was a stillbirth or something.

Please check what is miscarriage, because at this rate I will lose more than few hair...
Miscarriage cannot be a stillbirth. Strictly speaking, it happens when the fetus dies before the critical cap of 24 weeks. You discover this due to bleeding or the ultrasound exams done by routine. You cannot have 9 months of term, then "oh, it is a miscarriage!". Absolutely impossible.

And the term is exactly the same in japanese, so it is downright impossible to mistake stillbirth with miscarriage.

Also I have a question about the shed: In Episode 1 didn't they say that the shed could with a master key? Why is the separate key for the shed now if that's the case??

No, they never said the shed could be open by the master key.

[Hareoic]

Spoiler for Sorry to turn the topic of conversation towards a wild theory, but after remembering the fact that Beatrice is a title, I have come up with a wild hypothesis about Battler's sin and Beatrice's identity:

The person now known as Beatrice, perhaps romantically, perhaps maternally, loved Battler. Then, six years before the events of the game, he told her that he did not return her affections (don't blame him, he's only twelve at the time).

As the saying goes, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. At that point, whoever the person was before, that part of them "died" after they took on the title of Beatrice the Golden Witch.

Or, if you want to try to figure out the supernatural aspects of the games, perhaps she literally died (somehow Battler's fault) and became a ghost who haunts the island. Battler and the others cannot see her in the first episode because, as has been stated several times, you cannot see the magic without love, and he did not have any love for her, whereas the servants revered yet feared her. Kinzo regarding her as a love interest is irrelevant, as he is dead at the beginning of each episode.

If the ghost theory is correct, then it explains why Battler can see Beatrice in Purgatorio, as both of them are dead (or "mostly dead", at least) after the end of the first game. Come to think of it, saying "a ghost did it" is not the same as saying "a witch did it" and could explain the locked rooms if your view is more anti-mystery. This also explains the "Black Witch" as being a malicious spirit that has possessed one of the relatives (like Rosa, for instance).

Then, building on the possession theory, the crimes Beatrice says "were not committed by humans, etc." were instances where she or perhaps her servants possessed a person or at the very least strongly influenced them into committing the murders (like Kasumi at the end of episode four). Thus Beatrice could say it was/was not committed by humans because it's only half true.

I've strayed from my original theory, I know, but all of the other stuff came to me as I was typing

Feel free to poke holes in it.

[Jan-Poo]

well the most relevant hole I see is that you need to accept the supernatural. Yes a ghost is not a witch, but does that satisfies Battler? Also your theory presume you can accept red truth as metaphorical statements ("death isn't actually death"). this would kinda suck.

No, they never said the shed could be open by the master key.

I can confirm this. This is the closed room of episode1. Kanon could not open it with his master key, he had to go to the servant room to get the only key that could open it. This obviously put the servants as main suspects.

BTW this episode confirms that the "master key" is actually a bundle of about 10 master keys

[Hareoic]

I'm just assuming that there's something supernatural about the game, much like Higurashi. If there can't be any compromises, then yeah, ghost theory is out.

[Jan-Poo]

With the supernatural anything can be explained same as with magic. ESP powers can explain everything as well.

[Hareoic]

Ooh, that's right, he's trying to prove it wasn't supernatural in the first place, not just deny witches. I forgot

[crazysjd89]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Therefore, you cannot claim Gohda and Kumasawa were still alive when Kyrie died. In fact, there is no guarantee they weren't kill right after they were locked in the gardening storagehouse.

This doesn't give an accurate time of death, but I think Gohda and Kumasawa had to have died after Kanon. Because Kanon was definitly the 9th victim. Unless you think the killing order goes something like First Twilight -> Gohda and Kumasawa -> Kanon -> Jessica and George.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

This is an interesting theory, however the idea that the culprit used a voice distortion device is something you see often in B movies but doesn't really work in the real world expecially in 1986. The idea that the culprit has a natural talent in imitating voices is a lot more plausible, although still improbable.

I do not think it is so unbelievable.

Not necasarrily voice distortion, but I can think of other things. With a phone, it's abit harder to differentiate voices, so the culprit could have used this to the advantage. Not only that, but all of the phone calls they could have been forced to say those things. They were hostages after all.

I'll point it out again, but I find what she states with Kinzo to be a bit weird.

"Nobody would mistake Kinzo by sight."

This means that it's entirly possible to mistake Kinzo by hearing. It might be disprooved in a later game, but it's an alternate theory to the "someone toke Kinzo's name" theory.

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Now being serious... a few thoughts and theories
Jessica killed George. That's why she knew he was dead. Regarding her own death...suicide. That's why she knew what way she would die. It's hard to shot yourself with a shotgun in the head. The repulsion will most likely fling the gun out of your hand when you shoot yourself. I don't think Battler would have searched through properly, he said himself that the scene was very gruesome didn't he? The weapon could have been under her bed or something. She phoned Battler almost going insane and ready to kill herself. Maybe she didn't wanted Battler to know the truth about the murders and all this. So she told him about magic. Without love the truth cannot be seen, was it? Magic is the way Battler wouldn't know that his beloved friends and family killed each other. The same with Kyrie, they wanted to protect Battler from the harsh truth which would have broke him.

This is much like my theory, though you're making Jessica the culprit it seems. I think Kyrie was the culprit.

I believe the culprit told George and Jessica their test was to "have a shootout with my accomplice", and it was actually both of them having a shootout. Jessica shoot George, and George hurt Jessica (much like Eva did in Episode 3). Jessica retreated to her room, called Battler, and ended up killing herself.

Kyrie, after killing almost everyone, came to her senses suddenly, and told Battler to believe in magic so he wouldn't find out she was behind the killings.

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Why would the servants keep quite about the death of their master?

I think it's entirely possible. Genji and Kanon would probably keep quiet for sure if they were told to. Furthermore, if Kanon, Shannon, and Kumasawa told everyone, esspecially after Krauss hid the death, it would cause a lot of trouble for Jessica, so I think that would motivate them to remain silent.

Originally Posted by Kitsu

also about Lamda who said in the
Kanon did not die in an accident
but he also died because of homocide or suicide. So HOW could he die in Episode 1?? The answer is...Kanon didn't die at all.

This is a possible theory, however, it could also be that there was a trap. Beato simply says "No human alive or dead could kill Kanon", not that it wasn't a murder.

[Kitsu]

I think it's entirely possible. Genji and Kanon would probably keep quiet for sure if they were told to. Furthermore, if Kanon, Shannon, and Kumasawa told everyone, esspecially after Krauss hid the death, it would cause a lot of trouble for Jessica, so I think that would motivate them to remain silent.

Well maybe you should read my post again. I don't think that Genji and KAnon especially them would keep quit about the murder of their master normally even if KRauss ordered them too. Because their loyality belongs to Kinzo. But that they would keep quit if there was some kinda reason.

George hurt Jessica (much like Eva did in Episode 3).

I don't think he hurt her because...remember how much she panicked? How terrified she was? If that would be the case she wouldn't be able to talk to Battler that calmly.

[crazysjd89]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Well maybe you should read my post again. I don't think that Genji and KAnon especially them would keep quit about the murder of their master normally even if KRauss ordered them too. Because their loyality belongs to Kinzo. But that they would keep quit if there was some kinda reason.

I do not think that is the case, because even if they were loyal, they had the "furniture complex". It's not like Genji is completly unloyal to the children with Kinzo either. I'm not saying it's not possible Jessica killed Kinzo, just that it's still possible that it was for some other reason.

Originally Posted by Kitsu

I don't think he hurt her because...remember how much she panicked? How terrified she was? If that would be the case she wouldn't be able to talk to Battler that calmly.

It is very possible he did not hurt her. However, just because she wasn't panicked doesn't mean she wasn't hurt. There would be some time between running from the Arbor to her room, and she probably had time to calm down.

Once again, refering to Episode 3, she was certainly panicked by being shot, but calmed down after awhile.

Furthermore, if we assume she had planned to commit suicide during or before she called Battler, she probably would be calm, despite a wound.