[Manga] Naruto Chapter 627 Discussion Thread

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

because madara is the ultimate chauvinist. he couldnt care less what he says to provoke people because he thinks of himself as too good for them to matter (all except hashirama of course)

i could see it going like this: minato shows up, shock and awe at what obito has become, obito whines about rin, madara overhears and says you mean that little girl i used to provoke your MS?, obito flips out

^just a rough guesstimation, but madara certainly wouldn't care what obito thought. he probably would find it amusing

I dunno man. He presumably went through all that trouble to set things up so it would look like Kakashi killed her. I don't think he'd let all that effort go to waste by blatantly telling him about it.

If he set it up, that is. We still don't know the precise circumstances of Rin's death, but I agree it was very convenient for Madara that it happened that way.

[Aqua Knight]

Though now part of me wishes Sasuke stayed twisted and crazy, adding more spice to the series, but that would be illogical after such "peace proposing" flashbacks.

[Monster0]

The 10tails is free from Madara and Obitos control last we seen.I wonder if it will go crazy and attack everyone.I for one would rather see Sasuke and Naruto team up then fight again.And even though i like the four hokages i think it would be lame if they are the ones who ultimately save the day.
Something tells me that Sasuke,Madara,and Obito will die.Then no one will have to forgive them.

[Aqua Knight]

It would be pretty cool if both Naruto and Sasuke die, but that's unlikely to happen as this manga most likely will have a happy end

[Pentium]

Perhaps the best chapter in a while but its on a break next week ARGGGHHH!!!!!

[Sasukemaru]

Good chapter, but what is with all the Naruto cry babies?

Now naruto can't save sasuke....now naruto has to watch the hokage fight...yadda yadda yadda.

Honestly, Naruto is not the strongest character in this series...Anyone who thought a 16 year old KID would become the strongest person to ever live has their heads in la la land.

Naruto is still just a boy, just like everyone his age. Naruto's power won't even reach its max potential for another 10-15 years. So yeah, if you thought he could stop the legendary madara, obito, and the most destructive power to ever exist in the 10 tails without the help of the hokage, sasukes crew, and a entire army....Then you must be living in Madara's dream world already.

[yogotah]

Originally Posted by james0246

If Itacho had simply killed Sasuke's family, you might have an argument (not really, but whatever), but Itachi didn't just kill Sasuke's family. Itachi went out of his way to rape, destroy and otherwise abuse Sasuke's very psyche. Sasuke was so badly damaged by Itachi's persistant torture that he even thought shacking up with a body stealing crazy monster made sense. Itachi screwed over Sasuke completely and totally for reasons that still make little to no sense, but we forgive him because he is supposedly awesome and his ideals match Naruto's.

He did exactly what a soldier would have done, and the extra actions that he took wasn't ill willed but was an attempt to (in his own way) to make sure that Sasuke would resent him and try to become a hero of the village. Yes, abusing Sasuke's psyche wasn't the best method, but Itachi himself already admitted that fault. A soldier sacrifices their own soul to benefit their cause, the same as Itachi did, which is why I used that analogy, and Sasuke became mad and angry at that cause....but to honor his brother, he has now decided to protect his cause instead of destroying it, which isn't an incoherent answer.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by yogotah

He did exactly what a soldier would have done,

First of all, no. There are actual laws that prevent this in most civilized countries. If your commanding officer tells you to kill children and civilians, then not only are you allowed to object, you are required to. Instead, Itachi not only completed the job, but mentally tortured and abused his brother in the process...then he came back and did it again.

Second of all, you can't so casually dismiss such monstrous actions simply because Itachi was following orders, or because the end results were better because of his actions (arguably or not). Itachi is certainly a pitiful figure, placed in a no-win situation beyond his years or experiences to solve, but he is not a sympathetic figure in the slightest. Itachi did egregious injury to Sasuke for reasons that, while clear, are not really acceptable and should not be acceptable. Itachi, right now, is literally getting away with murder and torture for baffling and somewhat stupid reasons (Sasuke's love/obsession and because Itachi had the "will of fire").

Originally Posted by yogotah

and the extra actions that he took wasn't ill willed but was an attempt to (in his own way) to make sure that Sasuke would resent him and try to become a hero of the village. Yes, abusing Sasuke's psyche wasn't the best method, but Itachi himself already admitted that fault.

So what? It doesn't matter if Itachi didn't have "ill will" when he raped his brother; he still raped his brother. The end result is Itachi so thoroughly destroying his brother's mind that he would have arguably been better off dead. Yet because Itachi did it for a cause the protagonist believes in, he is somehow forgiven (or at least his abhorrent actions are mitigated).

Originally Posted by yogotah

A soldier sacrifices their own soul to benefit their cause, the same as Itachi did,

No, that is a fanatic (or just a sociopath). Being a soldier is not a clean job, but it is not a soulless job either.

[King Lycan]

So Sasuke isn't going to fight Naurto to the death anymore ? Couldn't say I didn't see that coming .

[yogotah]

Originally Posted by james0246

First of all, no. There are actual laws that prevent this in most civilized countries. If your commanding officer tells you to kill children and civilians, then not only are you allowed to object, you are required to. Instead, Itachi not only completed the job, but mentally tortured and abused his brother in the process...then he came back and did it again.

I don't think that an argument in the politics of war is a good idea now, but I would like to point out that laws means nothing when real war arrives. During the war on terror, it was common for soldiers to go out into the villages of Iraq and kill everyone who didn't evacuate the premises like they said. This included mother and children...and this is from the mouth of actual soldiers that I know. So yes, sometimes soldiers have to do underhand shady actions that are above the law, that is the price of selling your soul to the state.

Now Itachi wanted to stop a war, and Danzo only gave him the option to kill all the people that he loved so save a village and peace that he cherished. The Uchiha were the "bad guys", they wanted to start a war and end the peace that Hashirma dream about.

I do agree that he didnt' have to mess his brother up in the way he did, but his intentions were good. So I guess the real question that we need to pose is " does the intent justify the means?"

No, that is a fanatic (or just a sociopath). Being a soldier is not a clean job, but it is not a soulless job either.

It would be extremely easy for me to find actual soldiers and veterans that would disagree with your statement. War isn't easy, and the news and media doesn't always tell you the full story. If you heard the stories from actual soldiers of some of the things they had to do....obviously not as crazy as destroying an entire clan...but still extremely (by our standards) immoral.

[~Yami~]

I'm waiting for lots epic Kagami Uchiha's fanfic

although this is VERY lame.... I mean isn't it funny that we won't see Sasuke-Naruto's battle to death? maybe they will do it after this war but it just won't be same anymore

well, forget about that... at least Itachi got a very big part in Naruto series from birth to death and even after-death....
I can't hide my excitement when I see 4 Hokages are standing on their own faces

epic Sasuke-Naruto combi is coming

[james0246]

Originally Posted by yogotah

I don't think that an argument in the politics of war is a good idea now...

There is really no need to draw the real world into the discussion. Kishimoto has specifically pointed out in the past that strictly following orders is not always ideal (in fact there are few times when strictly following orders was ideal). Specifically, Sakumo (Kakashi's father) was derided for not accomplishing his mission solely because he felt that preserving/saving his own troops was of greater importance than following orders. And while he was vilified by the nation for his actions, Kishimoto has spent a great deal of time arguing that Sakumo's decisions were not only the correct ones but what every shinobi should follow. So, Kishimoto has actually spent quite a large amount of time telling us that simply following orders means nothing in regards to the "Will of Fire" (which greatly undermines everything Itachi did).

[Cookie-Monster]

I kind of blame Kishi for his handling of the antagonists (its been terribly shortsighted and flipfloppy)

Granted, writing a compelling/convincing antagonist is not an easy thing to do.

You can have the antagonist be a;

1. Semi-antagonist, who’s rationale is rooted in understandable dynamics. Most compelling by far of all the antagonist types. But writers tend to shy away from this because such antagonists are difficult to set up, and it can force the readership to choose sides or root less strongly for the protagonist.
   
2. Sociopath (they tend to not be as compelling on a deeper level. Although they can at times have some very cool design/dialogue)
   
3. Idealist (this tends to be the weakest type of antagonist. Their whole "for the greater good" always has logic that is not convincing attached to it)
   
4. Revenge driven antagonist.
   
5. Greed driven antagonist.
   
6. Various combinations of the sociopath/idealist/revenge/greed types

My main dissatisfaction with the manga has been Kishimoto’s handling of his protagonists.

Orochimaru - Sociopath/Greed (when this became weak, Kishi muddied up the archetype by trying to give him hidden motivations. Whether this turns out to be idealist or revenge is not yet known)

Pain – Was clearly a revenge based protagonist. Again kishi tried to spice up the character by giving him idealist dynamics. And this ruined pain’s character because the logic failed. (im felt pain, so I want to inflict maximum pain on other innocents so they stop fighting? Righttt).

Itachi – Sociopath antagonist at the start, and then morphed into a protagonist. Mixed feelings here. The idea that Itachi would murder his clan to protect Konoha is believable. It was a very interesting twist. But the problem is that it is quite obvious Kishi made this decision retroactively once he had seen how popular Itachi was. As a consequence, the whole sasuke story went to dog-shit because Itachi’s actions were utterely nonsensical with regards to Sasuke himself. “I’ll mentally torture you so that you can ... what?”

Sasuke – Protagonist who turns into antagonist with a clear and compelling revenge based story. Due to the retroactive re-write mentioned above, this later turns into an illogical sociopath story once he finds out the truth about Itachi.

Madara – Revenge/ideogical. Cant make any judgements on him yet because I have a feeling more Madara information is forthcoming. Right now hes still an intriguing antagonist.

That’s why the story has gotten so goofy. Kishi has no clear vision for his antagnosits. As I mentioned at the start, the best antagonists are those who are actually semi-antagonists which introduce a grey-area into the cheerleading section and make the story more compelling.

Naruto-world is a fascinating one. Would have loved the manga to have been based Naruto’s ultimate destiny to unite the entire ninja-world into a unified whole that stopped fighting. All the antagnoists could have come in the form of semi-antagonists various ninja from other countries who opposed him for various revenge/greed/sociopath reasons. Within that greater framework, the tailed beasts, and sasuke’s revenge arc (etc) could have all been resolved nicely and still leave plenty of intriguing stuff.

My 3 cents.

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Hunter

They've even less of a reason to resent him, if you look at Sasuke's actions from a non-reader perspective he could even be considered one of the greatest hero of this generation behind Naruto.
Prepare yourself seeing scores of ex-prisoners from Oro's experiments recognizing their savior, the noble man who single handedly killed the terrible criminal Deidara, Orochimaru and Itachi and executed the traitor Danzo. The champion who took down the necromancer Kabuto and his horde of zombies, the hero who freed the souls of the 4 previous Hokage and brought them back to save the world in this hour of need. Hell, I heard he's best friend with Naruto the Great Light-Bulb, all this nonsense about defection was probably some elaborated S-class secret mission.
Oh and expect a few females swooning over his looks too because that happens a lot.

He is also a man who tried to kill Kages and start a war. He is a man who tried to destroy a village and a man who multiple times back stabbed his comrades and friends because he is a crybaby.

There is no way I would keep a back stabber anywhere near me especially when he back stabbed EVERYONE he ever worked/met with.

He doesn't give a shit about anyone except Itachi and could easily back stab again whenever he feels like it.

He is an ass and needs to be punished in one way or another.

[Vindi89]

Seems like we may have a possible reason for the lack of Senju finally. The 2nd Hokage's dream was to have all clans disseminate into Konoha and be 'from' Konoha rather than say Uchiha or Senju for example.

He may have disbanded his own clan in the hopes that the others would follow his lead.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

Itachi is certainly a pitiful figure, placed in a no-win situation beyond his years or experiences to solve, but he is not a sympathetic figure in the slightest. Itachi did egregious injury to Sasuke for reasons that, while clear, are not really acceptable and should not be acceptable. Itachi, right now, is literally getting away with murder and torture for baffling and somewhat stupid reasons (Sasuke's love/obsession and because Itachi had the "will of fire").

i'm not sure he 'got away' with anything. he died a miserable death and led a miserable life after the massacre up until that death. even when he was an ET zombie, killerbee tried to pay him a compliment and itachi just turned his back on him because he thought of himself as unworthy of any sort of praise. one of the reasons he wanted sasuke to get stronger was to judge him and if he so decided, to punish him. now that sasuke knows everything, he turned out to be compassionate and desired the best for the collective similar to hashirama

Originally Posted by Cookie-Monster

Itachi – Sociopath antagonist at the start, and then morphed into a protagonist. Mixed feelings here. The idea that Itachi would murder his clan to protect Konoha is believable. It was a very interesting twist. But the problem is that it is quite obvious Kishi made this decision retroactively once he had seen how popular Itachi was. As a consequence, the whole sasuke story went to dog-shit because Itachi’s actions were utterely nonsensical with regards to Sasuke himself. “I’ll mentally torture you so that you can ... what?”

i totally agree that it was a retcon and that it doesnt make perfect sense, but i wouldn't call it dogshit. itachi wanted sasuke to get stronger for several reasons. and since the only way for an uchiha to get that strong is mental anguish, itachi put sasuke through a lot of it. also, he showed him what the MS eyes were capable of in the process, like he did to/for kakashi. but i agree it was a bit overboard. itachi was clearly meant to be a villain at those times

Sasuke – Protagonist who turns into antagonist with a clear and compelling revenge based story. Due to the retroactive re-write mentioned above, this later turns into an illogical sociopath story once he finds out the truth about Itachi.

i still dont find sasuke's revenge path to be illogical. konoha made his brother murder his clan and then lead a life of self-torture and sacrifice. all th while, everyone in konoha enjoyed the peace itachi allowed while believing him to be a traitor and serial killer. granted that was the plan, but i can imagine being in sasuke's shoes and wanting revenge, particulary against the elders. the 'insane gene' of the uchiha accounts for sasuke being maniacal much like obito was after rin's death

[JustRob]

I think at the climax of the battle Sasuke will give his eyes to Naruto. Then, with Sasuke's Uchiha eyes and Naruto's own Uzumaki / Senju heritage, he will awaken the Rinnegan and become the next Sage of the Six Paths.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by yogotah

True, but I don't think Itachi is to blamed for his action.

I guess an insanity plea could be made indeed.
More seriously I'm not even going to start a Nuremberg defense/superior orders debate because it doesn't even apply to the situation. It wasn't a war, it wasn't a lawful order and most of what Itachi did to Sasuke wasn't an order at all and just something he set up to do by himself. The fact that he had no "ill-will" has also no bearing whatsoever on what he's done. If I were convinced that raping kids is good for them for whatever sick reason my demented mind could come up with it wouldn't excuse me in the slightest and wouldn't change the horror of my actions.

As it is the only reason Itachi isn't regarded with the revulsion he deserves is because the author keeps stating through his others characters that he's a hero and a saint regardless of moral dissonance, because he did it for the sake of the side the readers are supposed to identify with and because he did it to the side people like to hate -mostly by association with Sasuke. Oh and he's a bishounen, were he an ugly bloke full of warts and an ugly smile we probably wouldn't even have this conversation.

If a soldier kills your family, usually it's the country he's from, not the actual soldier that you will have hatred for.

No it is not usually the case, the usual case is the progressive dehumanization of everybody perceived as the enemy or siding with him until murdering any number of people for guilt of association give you no pause whatsoever.
Of course it also doesn't apply to the situation considering the killer in this case was his very brother and not some unknown figure in a foreign uniform.

Originally Posted by kitten320

He is also a man who tried to kill Kages and start a war. He is a man who tried to destroy a village and a man who multiple times back stabbed his comrades and friends because he is a crybaby.

There is no way I would keep a back stabber anywhere near me especially when he back stabbed EVERYONE he ever worked/met with.

He doesn't give a shit about anyone except Itachi and could easily back stab again whenever he feels like it.

He is an ass and needs to be punished in one way or another.

Of all those only the first one is important in the grand scheme of things and it pales in front of what he did or is believed to have done. He didn't start a war nor did he try to destroy a village and the people he back-stabbed don't care. There is a reason I said from a non-reader perspective and exaggerated the positive traits, it doesn't matter that you don't like him, my point that that the general population in the story have very little against him and lot to thanks him for regardless of the fact that Sasuke is a little prick who doesn't give a rat's ass about them.

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

I think it was creative the way Kishimoto presented Itachi as a tragic hero.

I think we don't share the same definition of creative is all.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by King Lycan

So Sasuke isn't going to fight Naurto to the death anymore ? Couldn't say I didn't see that coming .

People jump to conclusions too easily. Just because Sasuke wants to prevent the end of the world it does not mean he suddenly became friends with Naruto and konoha. I guess when the war ends he will face Naruto in a very similar way that Madara faced Hashirama. The only thing that was made clear in this chapter is that Sasuke is mentally much stronger than Obito, he didn't choose to run away into a dream world instead of dealing with reality.

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

People jump to conclusions too easily. Just because Sasuke wants to prevent the end of the world it does not mean he suddenly became friends with Naruto and konoha. I guess when the war ends he will face Naruto in a very similar way that Madara faced Hashirama. The only thing that was made clear in this chapter is that Sasuke is mentally much stronger than Obito, he didn't choose to run away into a dream world instead of dealing with reality.

He blatantly said that he wants to protect the village now. That's different from what Madara wanted. Naruto wants to protect the village, Sasuke wants to protect the village. They virtually have no reason whatsoever to fight anymore.