The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 12]

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The problem isn't "proof of existence" The problem is why she exists. Tsuruya disappears for weeks on end with no one knowing what she's up to. This character trait simply wouldn't exist if she was made up in someone's imagination; it doesn't serve a purpose in an imaginary world. In a dream, anything that isn't relevant simply doesn't have substance. But Tsuruya HAS substance, yet she is not a necessary aspect of SOS-dan. So if SOS-dan is someone's imagination, Tsuruya simply can't exist as she is.

Thus Tsuruya is not a dream. QED.^_^

I very much dislike the idea of this entire anime being a dream in Kyon's head (this is, after all, the oldest story cop out in the book), but in fairness... even in a dream, Tsuruya has relevance; she serves the purpose of being a good extra for when more than five people are needed. Instead of creating entirely different dream characters whole cloth for whenever an extra person or two is needed, Kyon keeps coming back to Tsuruya, Taniguchi, and Kunikida.

That would fit as a theory, anyway, I think.

[Ithekro]

Or she's the mental image of some social services person or some doctor that checks on Kyon every once in a while. He just thinks of her as some sort of super hero that is off doing stuff and he only sees her in her secret identity which he makes up.


Do you get the feeling Yuki is messing with Kyon and Mikuru with her moving her wand in circles? Sort of how like she would later move the mouse around in the air...in circles.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Or she's the mental image of some social services person or some doctor that checks on Kyon every once in a while. He just thinks of her as some sort of super hero that is off doing stuff and he only sees her in her secret identity which he makes up.


Do you get the feeling Yuki is messing with Kyon and Mikuru with her moving her wand in circles? Sort of how like she would later move the mouse around in the air...in circles.

Maybe.

However, I think that Yuki is mainly doing that for Haruhi. She has to show Haruhi something - some sort of action - and so she moves her wand in the air in circles.

[chinaboat]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

Two possibilities:
1. Kunikida is a psychic.
2. Kyon is capable of projecting his thoughts onto others.

Spoiler for series:

Option two is correct in regards solely to Haruhi or rather Haruhi can sometimes sense/hear Kyon's thoughts regarding her - although she's not aware that's what's happening. I think it first happens in Melancholy Pt 1: KYON: (all in narration) "Which is why when Haruhi showed up with her long hair cut I was rather disturbed. Anyway isn't cutting it the day after I point it out a bit hasty? (maybe not in narration) Hey?" HARUHI: "Not really" - Then again in Pt 2 Kyon in narration talks about the stuff she's accumulated and sarcastically wonders if she's going to live there and she immediately turns to him and says a computer would be nice, too - Right at the beginning of Pt 5 as the narrator he discusses walking home from school with a girl. He never says anything to Haruhi but after she points to a direction she asks if he had said something.

Of course there are numerous instances when Yuki communicates with Itsuki and Mikuru without speaking

However, in the case of Kunikida, I think that instance was a mistake on the production company's part.

[Mecha_Trueno]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Also, Knikida, of all people, seen to hear Kyon's narration at 19:57. This time, is very clear his mouth was shut. Is also clear Kunikida was talking about his narration.


At that point I really believe it was a Kyoani mistake.

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

Two possibilities:
1. Kunikida is a psychic.
2. Kyon is capable of projecting his thoughts onto others.

Originally Posted by Heatth

He said 'Now that you mention it, Nagato-san...'. As Kyon had talked about her. 'Mention' is not a word you use when you are reading someone expression. Unless it was a Mazui and baka-tsuki translation error, it is weird.


Opition 2 sound better, as this happens all time with many people. I really prfer to think it is a Kyoani mistake. But, who knows? Maybe Tanigawa had asked then to place some hints about it.

Originally Posted by chinaboat

However, in the case of Kunikida, I think that instance was a mistake on the production company's part.

Its neither a mistake on Kyoani's part, Baka-Tsuki's translation, nor Mazui-subs (I haven't actually watched their version).
What Kunikida said, "それにしても", doesn't necessarily need to be a 'reply' to something. Both B-T and Mazui translated it to the best they could with what they had. Its just one of those things where there isn't a direct Japanese to English translation.

[ac195]

Are will still discussing about how characters seem to read Kyon's mind?

It's just a quirk Tanigawa(the author) uses in the light novels (the source material). Kyon is the narrator and doesn't always make it clear which of his lines are being spoken and which aren't.

[Ice Block]

Or, he could be masking unimportant dialogues with his "slightly more interesting" internal monologues. It's an interesting technique when used sparingly, providing a small mystery element on the exact conversations.

And this has been done to death back in 2006 already. I thought people were used to this? Or has this phenomenon not appeared in any popular show since then?

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

The people discussing it now, myself included, weren't around in 2006. However, I'm just going along with the discussion for the hell of it. I really don't care one way or the other.

[ac195]

Originally Posted by aulzon

Again, the ending was really abrupt but still a nice episode. I really can't wait til we get more Tsuruya.

Heminga13 pointed this out already. The whole Sighs arc is being deliberately portrayed like an entire movie cut into episodes (KyoAni is really loving the meta aspect of this season).

[Ascaloth]

Episode 22 article is up:

[RIUVA] Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu (2009), Episode 22: Suzumiya Haruhi no Tameiki III

This was by far the best new episode of the 2009 broadcast. 9/10.

And you know, all the speculation about Kunikida reading Kyon's mind really underscores the whole There Is No Coincidence trope.

[Philos]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

First order of business for the day; while they were fleeing, where the hell was Yuki?

I just notice....

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by ac195

Heminga13 pointed this out already. The whole Sighs arc is being deliberately portrayed like an entire movie cut into episodes (KyoAni is really loving the meta aspect of this season).

Unfortunately, the illusion of that was completely demolished at the start of Sigh II, where there is a noticeable jump in detail from where Sigh I left off.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Mecha_Trueno

Its neither a mistake on Kyoani's part, Baka-Tsuki's translation, nor Mazui-subs (I haven't actually watched their version).
What Kunikida said, "それにしても", doesn't necessarily need to be a 'reply' to something. Both B-T and Mazui translated it to the best they could with what they had. Its just one of those things where there isn't a direct Japanese to English translation.

This is a translation error them. Maybe not so much for B-T, as they couldn't seen Kyon was not speaking. However, Mazui could see Kyon didn't open his mouth, so they should have choosed another word to translate it.

Thanks for the info, anyway. This probably explain other situations.

[baltakatei]

I must say, though: If you watch episodes imagining everyone except Kyon and Koizumi as imaginary, a lot of things start to make sense.

1. Why doesn't the Student Council oust Haruhi from the Literary club?

2. Why does Mikuru take so much abuse from Haruhi? If she's just an RPG plaything of Kyon's, then she could be whatever he wanted her to be.

Also, in this episode, Kyon is the one tasked with everything from hauling the camera around to editing the video. Koizumi is the only other person involved with handling physical props. Haruhi just sits in her director's chair and shouts out commands. The most Mikuru does is fire her air guns. If you watch the episode imagining only Kyon and Koizumi exist, scenes such as when the Brigade flees from the shrine priest would still look normal: Kyon and Koizumi running more-or-less side-by-side as they flee, as if they started running at the same time.

Anyway, that's as much mileage as this theory has. Reality has to be stretched too much to fit in the events of Lone Island Syndrome or Live Alive.

[ac195]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

Unfortunately, the illusion of that was completely demolished at the start of Sigh II, where there is a noticeable jump in detail from where Sigh I left off.

You wouldn't really notice unless you were watching them side-by-side. That's pretty much what the in-between week's worth of time is for

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by baltakatei

Anyway, that's as much mileage as this theory has. Reality has to be stretched too much to fit in the events of Lone Island Syndrome or Live Alive.

Actually, Lone Island Syndrome can be rather easily included with the theory, making it so Koizumi is attempting to snap Kyon out of his fantasy illusion by setting up a fake murder mystery. Live Alive would be tricky, but the only major problems would be the stop in the cafe and the band members appearing in class 1-5 the following day.

*e*

Originally Posted by ac195

You wouldn't really notice unless you were watching them side-by-side. That's pretty much what the in-between week's worth of time is for

You're probably right. However, unless they drastically improve the quality of the final scene in Sigh I, the problem is going to come up the first time someone watches the DVD.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Ice Block

Or, he could be masking unimportant dialogues with his "slightly more interesting" internal monologues. It's an interesting technique when used sparingly, providing a small mystery element on the exact conversations.

And this has been done to death back in 2006 already.

Like Kogetsu said, not everybody here right now were here back in 2006. I... don't think that I was here back then myself. I think my first encounter with Anime Suki was 2007.

I thought people were used to this? Or has this phenomenon not appeared in any popular show since then?

I don't think that anybody here is saying that this phenomenon is necessarily a bad thing. We're just trying to pick sense out of it. Your own theory of "masking unimportant dialogues with more interesting internal monologues" makes a lot of sense to me. It's a nice theory.

And if your theory is right, then the novels/anime are probably better for it.

[Jintor]

My god, had someone been planting epileptic trees in here? D:

That said, it's certainly an interesting thought experiment to consider.

[GMT]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Maybe.

However, I think that Yuki is mainly doing that for Haruhi. She has to show Haruhi something - some sort of action - and so she moves her wand in the air in circles.

She doesn't really need to do anything for Haruhi, as Haruhi's default expectation of her is for her to stand there and do nothing/sit and read/be the weirdo quiet girl. Waving her wand is likely for Kyon and Mikuru's benefit. Likely her way of saying Okay, you've had your moe profuse apology moment. Get on with the exposition already! Tsuruya's only going to distract Haruhi for another thirty seconds. Then it'll be her turn to molest you. Bwahahaha! Only with less evil laughter at the end.

[Ithekro]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth
First order of business for the day; while they were fleeing, where the hell was Yuki?


I just notice....

Standing off in the distance. You can see her in costume near Haruhi's head. Either she didn't go with them, or when given the "retreat" order she used her speed to full advantage.