Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Rising Dragon]

His name is Murdoch, Znozzy. The chief mechanic is named Murdoch.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

His name is Murdoch, Znozzy. The chief mechanic is named Murdoch.

For some reason i thought his name was Murphy, but i wasnt sure, i stand corrected!

[monster]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

As i said, in contrast to the old crew from SEED, the Minerva's crew is pretty underused and some characters, like Meyrin is just there, same with Shinn's Mechanical buddies, and Meyrin's blonde replacecment

in SEED, the following characters where actually developed a small bit and saw some screentime (And did develop a tad bit aswell, can you imagine?):
Sai
Miriallia
Flay
Tohru/Tolle
Murrue
Angry-Mechanical-Dude
Natarle
Mwu

The Destiny crew never got that development.

Going by that list, we can also add Meyrin, Talia, and Meer to the new cast.

That said, not every character needs development. The two mechanics and Meyrin's replacement is no different than the Archangel's adult crew.

Kira has pretty much the same development as he did in Seed, the " i don't want to fight " to the " i'll fight if i must to defend my friends " the only thing i'll give him is the speech at the end to Durandal and him actually telling the AA to go ahead during the final battle, other than that, i honestly don't see Kira develop as a character at all, he is the same character throughout Destiny as he was towards the end of SEED

Kira went from a guy who stayed at home to become a guy who willingly joined the military.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by monster

Going by that list, we can also add Meyrin, Talia, and Meer to the new cast.

That said, not every character needs development. The two mechanics and Meyrin's replacement is no different than the Archangel's adult crew. Kira went from a guy who stayed at home to become a guy who willingly joined the military.

Just like he did in SEED.

Civilian(SEED #1, Destiny #Start of the show-14 > *Forced into the fight (Episode 2 of SEED, 14? of Destiny) > officially " Joined of his free will to protect his friends " (#10/11 of SEED) (#15 of Destiny, Orb uniform and all + AA Launching) > Determination: #50 of Seed " I have a world i want to protect " #Destiny FA+ Durandal speech.

Seriously, it's the same development as in SEED, minus him tossing out orders in the final battle.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Just like he did in SEED.

Civilian(SEED #1, Destiny #Start of the show-14 > *Forced into the fight (Episode 2 of SEED, 14? of Destiny) > officially " Joined of his free will to protect his friends " (#10/11 of SEED) (#15 of Destiny, Orb uniform and all + AA Launching) > Determination: #50 of Seed " I have a world i want to protect " #Destiny FA+ Durandal speech.

Seriously, it's the same development as in SEED, minus him tossing out orders in the final battle.

No, in SEED he only stayed in the military only as long as the war was going on. In Destiny, he remained after the war ended. That's a big difference.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by monster

No, in SEED he only stayed in the military only as long as the war was going on. In Destiny, he remained after the war ended. That's a big difference.

Is it? He kept the Orb uniform, the Freedom was under his house and the AA was hidden somewhere, during peacetime(between SEED > Destiny) he was at home with Lacus and the kids, at the end of Destiny (FA+), we see him arrive at Plant for some meeting in Zaft outfit, that doesnt mean he was in active Zaft duty the entire time. Honestly, we don't see much what the characters do after Destiny either. We do see Kira/Athrun/Shinn meet up at Orb in civilian clothing, so it can be assumed that he went back to living with Lacus and the kids after Destiny.

Honestly, Monster, it's hard to tell if he kept being in active military service after Destiny ended, so with that being said, let's agree to disagree what Kira did after Destiny.

[monster]

The Freedom was not under his house. It was under the Athha's house. And Kira did not have an Orb uniform in SEED.

Also, the meeting with Shinn was before they went to the PLANTs. And Kira wouldn't have to wear a ZAFT uniform in public like that unless he really did join ZAFT. It also makes no sense to actually join a military force when there is no war going on if he wasn't going to stay.

[weirdguy]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Is it? He kept the Orb uniform, the Freedom was under his house and the AA was hidden somewhere, during peacetime(between SEED > Destiny) he was at home with Lacus and the kids, at the end of Destiny (FA+), we see him arrive at Plant for some meeting in Zaft outfit, that doesnt mean he was in active Zaft duty the entire time. Honestly, we don't see much what the characters do after Destiny either. We do see Kira/Athrun/Shinn meet up at Orb in civilian clothing, so it can be assumed that he went back to living with Lacus and the kids after Destiny.

Honestly, Monster, it's hard to tell if he kept being in active military service after Destiny ended, so with that being said, let's agree to disagree what Kira did after Destiny.

I remember you saying that you watched Destiny 10 times. So, you should remember that Kira's house was destroyed due to Junius 7 fragments. At the end, Kira was he will fight. And that he knows peace can't be maintained if he goes back to the way he has been living. So, it is safe to say he is active.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by monster

The Freedom was not under his house. It was under the Athha's house. And Kira did not have an Orb uniform in SEED.

I stand corrected on the uniform part. And having the Freedom under the Attha house brings up other questions.

Also, the meeting with Shinn was before they went to the PLANTs.

Indeed, But it does show that Kira went back to a civilian life up until the meeting at PLANT, doesnt it? Or maybe he was simply off-duty, like he was after the last battle in SEED.

And Kira wouldn't have to wear a ZAFT uniform in public like that unless he really did join ZAFT. It also makes no sense to actually join a military force when there is no war going on if he wasn't going to stay.

See, now that's an entirely different issue (If he is officially a part of Zaft or if Terminal was assimilated into Zaft again)

Kira wore the White uniform, prooving that he is atleast higher ranked than a red-coat, it's safe to assume it's because he is on the Mobile suit team on the Eternal, Which Lacus has control over. Lacus is also on the high council (Some assume she is the chairman). However, since we have the scene in Orb before they head up to Plant, as i said earlier, it's hard to say what happens after because we havnt been shown Kira being on active Zaft-duty apart from Lacus having a meeting with the high council.

if its a ceremonial meeting when Lacus is brought back to PLANT or if she is turned into the Chairman, one can assume Lacus being dressed up the way she is, Kira stayed onboard the Eternal when it docked for x reason along with the Dom-trio, explaining the hug they had aswell at the end of the Special edition episode 4.

as i said earlier, let's agree to disagree when it comes to what happens to Kira after the F+/SE4

Originally Posted by weirdguy

I remember you saying that you watched Destiny 10 times. So, you should remember that Kira's house was destroyed due to Junius 7 fragments. At the end, Kira was he will fight. And that he knows peace can't be maintained if he goes back to the way he has been living. So, it is safe to say he is active.

Indeed it was, i never denied that. i always thought the Attha mansion (As monster said) was their real mansion.

Also, no.

Gil asked him what he would do if the world was thrown into chaos again, Kira replied that he was ready for it, and that he would fight if needed. He never said anything about peace not lasting if he goes back to the way he was living between SEED/Destiny.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Indeed, But it does show that Kira went back to a civilian life up until the meeting at PLANT, doesnt it? Or maybe he was simply off-duty, like he was after the last battle in SEED.

All of them were wearing civilian clothes while visiting a memorial. That doesn't mean they returned to civilian life. The fact that all of them, aside from Lacus, wore uniforms later on shows that they in fact remained with the military.

See, now that's an entirely different issue (If he is officially a part of Zaft or if Terminal was assimilated into Zaft again)

Kira wore the White uniform, prooving that he is atleast higher ranked than a red-coat, it's safe to assume it's because he is on the Mobile suit team on the Eternal, Which Lacus has control over. Lacus is also on the high council (Some assume she is the chairman). However, since we have the scene in Orb before they head up to Plant, as i said earlier, it's hard to say what happens after because we havnt been shown Kira being on active Zaft-duty apart from Lacus having a meeting with the high council.

if its a ceremonial meeting when Lacus is brought back to PLANT or if she is turned into the Chairman, one can assume Lacus being dressed up the way she is, Kira stayed onboard the Eternal when it docked for x reason along with the Dom-trio, explaining the hug they had aswell at the end of the Special edition episode 4.

As far as I know, Terminal was never a part of ZAFT.

Also, the narration states that the PLANTs asked Lacus to return. And since this happened after the meeting at Orb and after the peace treaty, the implication is clear that this move is of a more permanent nature. So Kira walking around in public wearing a ZAFT uniform obviously means he has joined ZAFT in some capacity.

Either way you look at it, he is no longer the same person who retreated to some orphanage after SEED.

Gil asked him what he would do if the world was thrown into chaos again, Kira replied that he was ready for it, and that he would fight if needed. He never said anything about peace not lasting if he goes back to the way he was living between SEED/Destiny.

Maybe not, but his promise to Durandal, and to Shinn, is that he will take responsibility for his choice.

Kira is indeed going to be ready and prepared to fight again, and to replant the flowers again if it comes to that.

And considering he is still wearing a uniform after that, you can't just brush it off as if nothing has changed for Kira.

[weirdguy]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

I stand corrected on the uniform part. And having the Freedom under the Attha house brings up other questions.


Indeed, But it does show that Kira went back to a civilian life up until the meeting at PLANT, doesnt it? Or maybe he was simply off-duty, like he was after the last battle in SEED.



See, now that's an entirely different issue (If he is officially a part of Zaft or if Terminal was assimilated into Zaft again)

Kira wore the White uniform, prooving that he is atleast higher ranked than a red-coat, it's safe to assume it's because he is on the Mobile suit team on the Eternal, Which Lacus has control over. Lacus is also on the high council (Some assume she is the chairman). However, since we have the scene in Orb before they head up to Plant, as i said earlier, it's hard to say what happens after because we havnt been shown Kira being on active Zaft-duty apart from Lacus having a meeting with the high council.

if its a ceremonial meeting when Lacus is brought back to PLANT or if she is turned into the Chairman, one can assume Lacus being dressed up the way she is, Kira stayed onboard the Eternal when it docked for x reason along with the Dom-trio, explaining the hug they had aswell at the end of the Special edition episode 4.

as i said earlier, let's agree to disagree when it comes to what happens to Kira after the F+/SE4



Indeed it was, i never denied that. i always thought the Attha mansion (As monster said) was their real mansion.

Also, no.

Gil asked him what he would do if the world was thrown into chaos again, Kira replied that he was ready for it, and that he would fight if needed. He never said anything about peace not lasting if he goes back to the way he was living between SEED/Destiny.

I think you kind of misunderstood what I meant. Yes, Kira never mentioned about peace not lasting if he goes back to the way he was living. But he knows that peace won't last. It's better to be prepared already than to wait until fighting starts again.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

The problem with Shinn's development wasn't that he "didn't become one of the good guys", it's that whenever he WOULD develop in whatever manner, by two or three episodes it would've been reversed and he'd be back to how he was.

o_O

The first time we get a a good look at Shinn's personality is him bitching out Cagalli for her father's decision to fight for his ideals at the cost of innocent lives.

Meanwhile his last big act in the show is trying to kill Luna in order to protect Durandal's ideals.

Shinn didn't just develop, his core character fundamentally changed. And it was done subtly enough and well enough that after a decade some people still don't notice...

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Meanwhile his last big act in the show is trying to kill Luna in order to protect Durandal's ideals.

One could also say that Shinn was too frenzied to notice Luna.

[Aquaman OS]

It's hard to tell if he really meant that early on though. Shinn is very hypocritical throughout the show between people he doesn't like, and people that trigger his two "buttons" (agreeing with him and feeding his ego, and his sister complex) so he might have just thought it wasn't ok for Orb to sacrifice people but ok for Durandal (who always butters him up and agrees with him) to do the same thing.

See also how he goes out of his way (and expects everyone else to do the same) to preserve Stella's life and goes on and on about the cruelty of forcing her to fight and how she's an innocent that needs to be saved.....but could care less when he kills Auel and Sting, at least one of whom he knew was also an extended. Because Stella reminds him of Mayu, and the others do not.

As for Kira's actions post Seed and post Destiny.

After Seed he basically thinks he's done fighting. They store their few remaining war assets (Freedom, Rouge, AA and Eternal) away just in case, but Kira and Lacus retire to the island. Even after war breaks out, Kira is adamantly refusing to get involved at first, and once Orb is dragged in, the initial plan was just for them to move to more coordinator friendly territory to wait the war out. Only after soliders personally show up to attack them does Kira realize they're too important to not get involved. Kira's power and Lacus's influence means they will always be considered a threat by people like Djbril and Durandal, even if they don't want to move against them, the very fact that they exist makes them a wild card to be targetted.

After Destiny they stay active, since they saw what letting the world pick up after them brought last time. So Kira resovlves to keep fighting for peace, and the animation (showing Lacus as Chairwoman and the Clyne Faction still assembled with Kira in a Zaft uniform) reflects this. No reason to think otherwise.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

One could also say that Shinn was too frenzied to notice Luna.

He responded to her and kept coming anyways.

It isn't his only change. Durandal is, in the process of that fight, shooting his own troops to protect his ideal and Shinn doesn't bat an eye.

He ignores Athrun's orders to save random civilians (personal morality more important than orders) and returns Stella (short term gain better than long term gain).

By the end of the series, he is doing things he feels are immoral because he is ordered to (killing Athrun and Meyrin) and he keeps following Durandal because he thinks it will all be better in the end, even if things aren't great now.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_zf66pEXwM#t10m38s Notice his face (most notably eyes) right after she gets in the way. He NOTICED.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

It's hard to tell if he really meant that early on though. Shinn is very hypocritical throughout the show between people he doesn't like, and people that trigger his two "buttons" (agreeing with him and feeding his ego, and his sister complex) so he might have just thought it wasn't ok for Orb to sacrifice people but ok for Durandal (who always butters him up and agrees with him) to do the same thing.

See also how he goes out of his way (and expects everyone else to do the same) to preserve Stella's life and goes on and on about the cruelty of forcing her to fight and how she's an innocent that needs to be saved.....but could care less when he kills Auel and Sting, at least one of whom he knew was also an extended. Because Stella reminds him of Mayu, and the others do not.

But this wasn't some random mook he was willing to kill. This was Luna. The closest thing to a family he has left in the world. With his family and now Stella gone Luna is the sole recipient of Shinn's attention.

Him being willing to kill her for the cause is the closest analogue for him being willing to Stella or his family for the cause. At the end, Shinn was willing to make ANY sacrifice for the greater good. That is the direct, complete opposite of his character at the beginning.

[Aquaman OS]

The difference, and the same thing with Athrun and Meyrin is that he doesn't logically or coldly decide "Well they will have to die for the greater good." he flips out and rage stabs them (or tries to in Luna's case). In 37 he does a total 180 on his attitude, starts screaming about how Athrun is bad and everything is his fault, totally trashes them.....and then suddenly snaps out of it and is all "Oh man what did I do?" like he wasn't fully in control of himself. Then Rey and Durandal hit him with the "you did the right thing" and only then does Shinn rationalize that he killed them for the greater good. So really, it wasn't so much Shinn making the decision to elminate people in Durandal's way as much as losing himself in his rage, and then being convinced by others he did the right thing. Shinn didn't really "decide" in his right mind to take them down at all. If he did, Rey wouldn't have had to carefully goad him into a Seed rage to get him to pull the trigger.

Same thing with Luna. He doesn't decide she'll have to die for the plan so much as be in such an angry rage he doesn't care he's about to kill her. And then again, snaps out of it and is shocked at his actions.

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

The difference, and the same thing with Athrun and Meyrin is that he doesn't logically or coldly decide

He didn't logically or coldly decide to scream at Cagalli, or save innocent and ignore Athrun's orders, or retrun Stella... He doesn't coldly decide to do ANYTHING. Most humans don't.

He certainly spends a good part of the episode deliberating on whether he should kill Athrun and Meyrin or not.

[weirdguy]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

o_O

The first time we get a a good look at Shinn's personality is him bitching out Cagalli for her father's decision to fight for his ideals at the cost of innocent lives.

Meanwhile his last big act in the show is trying to kill Luna in order to protect Durandal's ideals.

Shinn didn't just develop, his core character fundamentally changed. And it was done subtly enough and well enough that after a decade some people still don't notice...

Finally I see someone says, and realizes this about Shinn. A lot of people doesb't see this. Destiny isn't something that you watch once and realizes everything. I'm sure you know Wackymodder84. I enjoy his videos, but he watched the show like 48 times and still doesn't see thus.

[Rising Dragon]

You're both reading way too deeply into Shinn's character. What you see is what you get with Shinn. Guy's as deep as a rain puddle. All you're doing is parroting Fukuda and Morosawa's claims about what they intended him to be (supposedly) and not examining how they went about it. Aquaman's analysis of his hypocrisy and hair-trigger temper are far more accurate to Shinn's characterization than this "protecting Durandal's ideals" bullcrap.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by monster

All of them were wearing civilian clothes while visiting a memorial. That doesn't mean they returned to civilian life. The fact that all of them, aside from Lacus, wore uniforms later on shows that they in fact remained with the military. As far as I know, Terminal was never a part of ZAFT.

I always saw Terminal as the Clyne sympathisers that ran off with the Eternal when Lacus left the PLANT's in SEED. The Dom-trio wore Zaft uniforms, they had access to highly new Zaft tech (Gaia, Dom's, SF/IJ) and had their base in a asteroid in space.

Also, the narration states that the PLANTs asked Lacus to return. And since this happened after the meeting at Orb and after the peace treaty, the implication is clear that this move is of a more permanent nature. So Kira walking around in public wearing a ZAFT uniform obviously means he has joined ZAFT in some capacity.

See, thats the part i disagree with, the logical conclusion would be that Kira along with the Terminal/Eternal crew came with Lacus to the PLANT's. I'm not going to deny that Kira has the Zaft Uniform on. As i said, let's agree to disagree, i'll leave it at that.

Either way you look at it, he is no longer the same person who retreated to some orphanage after SEED. Maybe not, but his promise to Durandal, and to Shinn, is that he will take responsibility for his choice.

Kira is indeed going to be ready and prepared to fight again, and to replant the flowers again if it comes to that.

He didn't retreat, as soon as Kira needed to fight again, he did. That's why i have a hard time seeing it as development at the end of SE4. He simply kept on doing what he did at the end of SEED. "I have a world i want to protect "

And considering he is still wearing a uniform after that, you can't just brush it off as if nothing has changed for Kira.

as i said, lets agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by weirdguy

I think you kind of misunderstood what I meant. Yes, Kira never mentioned about peace not lasting if he goes back to the way he was living. But he knows that peace won't last.

No, i simply read what you wrote, try writing what you want to present the next time you post and we can avoid misunderstanding eachother.

It's better to be prepared already than to wait until fighting starts again.

Kira & Co had a banned-technology rebuilt NJC-powered mobile suit and a top of the arc battleship cruiser hidden under a house in mint condition, and they even had the keys with them at all times, i'd say he and the rest are quite prepared by the start of Destiny.