2004-10-23, 05:10
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Link #81 | |
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Enjoy & Relevant
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Anyway, I thought the subbing was done pretty neat but with the numbers of terms that got an explanation I would have preferred an appendix .txt (much like jinmen did with the manga release) or something like an introductory message (like in some of the Azumanga Daioh Triad subs) which you can skip. It's just annoying having these many, many notes keep popping up even when rewatching and having got the point. |
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2004-10-23, 05:39
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Link #82 |
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/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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well, regarding of hentai vs. H vs. ero... it's hard to say, for example, around my place (mostly english and chinese speakers), it's pretty much H=Hentai=18-kin and noone consider hentai as a derogatory term (well, except those who consider sex scenes in games are all bad, but then there's nothing much you can do about them...) and 18-kin games are called hentai-games by a lot of ACG people here... I guess it's partly because noone instantly relate "hentai" to 变态 since they are not japanese speakers... ero-game is not a term commonly used, although I guess english speaking people will understand its meaning anyway (ero = sex-related)... maybe fansubs can make a translation note on this part... explaining that ero-game = h-game or something... but then it's interesting to note that maybe for "saki" english speakers, the term ero-game could be more derogatory than hentai-game, since, well, the term "erotic" is a bit derogatory in english I think... It's like for japanese speakers hentai is more derogatory than ero, for english speakers it could be that ero is more derogatory than hentai
 anyway, back to Genshiken, just watched ep01, the Suzumiya Haruka part is great  However I'm a little bit disappointed that they cut short the part where Kanji meet Saki the first time. I was waiting for the "even my father have never hit me before" part all the time but it's not there  About Kujibiki Unbalance, I'm not really interested in it in the manga, and I'm not really interested in it in the anime... oh well... about that talk between those manga club people, yup it's hard to understand, and I guess hard to translate if there's no english counterparts for some of the japanese terms involved there. personally, I think it's good for fansubs to put footnotes there since fansubs are meant to make more people enjoying the show, and understanding the content of the talk instead of just some gibberish will help people enjoy the show. Even those official translated manga put a lot of such footnotes to help people understand some jokes and talks which are just impossible to understand for non-japanese speakers... |
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2004-10-23, 08:21
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Link #83 | |
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Lazy Turtle
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Inside my Shell
Age: 38
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so that's how Otakus Discuss things eh? This kinda sounds like the discussions I have with my buds about games ^^; I mean, when we talk about games we talk about everything, the team that made the game, 3D artist, Characters designers, Producers, Directors, game strategies, endings, worst/best part of the game...etc As for anime and manga, we mostly talk about the characters and the anime/manga itself, events and so on. We never talk about directors or the staff, but we do talk about the Seyuu/VAs and the Mangakas, like talking bout the Mangaka's past works and compairing them to his/her present one. Anyways, watched episode 1(thx to Solar and AF for subbing it =D) and one scene that I liked in the anime more than the manga is the one where the cell phones ring and how Sasahara keeps recognising the ring tones, I had a big smirk while watching that scene ^^ |
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2004-10-23, 14:41
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Link #85 |
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a.k.a. Akari_House
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 53
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To further expand on the depth of knowledge issue, another handicap non-Japanese fans have is that in Japan you can read things outside the anime itself about its production--magazine articles, interviews, websites, official books with in depth information, official and unofficial forums, and so on. We only get a fraction of that, and usally only well after the anime has come and gone.
This is improving bit by bit, for example the US publication of New Type has a fair amount of real insight, although most of it only skims the surface, and occasionally some books get translated. An excellent example is Comics One's translation of the Onegai Teacher anime mook, complete with commentary by Kurata, Uon, and so forth, really catching the character of a Japanese-published anime book (Comics One also translated all of Go Zappa's Onegai Teacher and Twins novels, but their editing was incredibly incompetent--although at least they seemed to use a spell checker--and one was even missing an entire chapter). (edit--in contrast to this are things like the Guardians of Order anime books, which give speculation on what an anime is about without generally interviewing the creators or such, basically making most of them completely based on careful observation, opinion, and conjecture that any seasoned fan could make, not contributing any actual true insight like you would find directly from the creative staff in a proper anime book. If I'm going to buy a book about an anime, I want to know what the people that made it think about it, not read some other fan's opinion on what it might be about...) But generally the information about the individuals behind the creation of anime tends to be quite opague to all but the fans with some serious Japanese comprehension. And the more casual fans could care less. But the Japanese fans have had that info in more and more depth and increasingly accessible over the years. I really envy that, the ability to have an informed conversation about the creation of these works, the way a pair of seasoned literary critics can discuss different writers' styles, or film buffs about directors, cinematographers, editors, and such. Anime (along with games and manga) is a form of visual literature, and deserves serious analysis and interpretation. Oh, and it deserves dakimakura (hug-pillows)! Wait, how'd that comment get in here?  Personally, I think that anime studios would do well to use more romaji in their credits...with romaji, suddenly all western fans in any country, in any roman letter-based language, can read and understand the names and perhaps even the roles of the staff that made the show. This would help them protect their own investment of effort and increase recognition outside the Asian market. Of course, official licensed series generally fix this (although I was pissed off that ADV cut out most of the ending credits for the staff on their so-called "uncut" Sailor Moon dvds so they could put their US production credits in instead... ).
Last edited by Ayu-ayu; 2004-10-23 at 14:53. |
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2004-10-23, 20:58
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Link #86 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
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This is gonna get long but stay with me.
There's a lot of things being discussed about this show so I'm not going to quote a bunch of other posts but just make one big overall reply. In JP there is no such term as Hentai Games as has been stated. Until recently there really weren't any of the 18+ games (ero games) brought over here. Now some have been. They have been sold and marketed as hentai games because 18+ anime has been sold and marketed as hentai. At this point it will be nigh impossible to break away from this because of the marketing mechanisms behind selling adult anime goods as "hentai". They now have a genre here. There are some of us in the USA who know that ero anime and ero games should not be called hentai but we are a very small majority. Unfortunately I see no easy way to turn this tide because the term has basically become the defacto designator for animated porn. Check out this MSNBC article on "hentai" http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6227619/ Why should we care that American anime fans understand the term hentai in its Japanese context? Because the majority of them think it is the Japanese word for anime porn. We should care because we WANT them to understand the Japanese end of this. There is no better opportunity for this than Genshiken. Those subbing this should consider this their duty, or maybe better, their responsibility to take the opportunity given to them and explain this difference at the very least. Especially since the Japanese context is on display right in the episodes. At this point I bet everyone can't wait until we have to explain moe. Cultural differences --- A subject not being discussed yet is why hentai was latched onto. I cannot state this from fact obviously but hear me out on my observed theory. Americans are generally uptight about sex. Throw in with this the large Christian background in the USA (let's think back to the Puritans who came here.....the Church of England wasn't strict enough for them). Sex may often be deemed "bad" or "wrong" outside the normal situations. Now examine the word hentai. What better way to classify japanese animated porn with a word from their own language that can mean fucked up. You are fucked up if you watch porn. Imagine how common that sentiment would be publically discussed here and agreed upon while at the same time people are watching it anyway. It's often don't ask; don't tell. The best way to explain the uptight sexual situation her is to think of that stupid Janet Jackson Superbowl-bare breast incident. Was is proper? No. Was it the end of the world? No. Was the word hentai picked because it means it's fucked up or wrong in some way. No, but you can bet there is a underlying association that we understand there between perverted and that material. From the viewpoint over here the fact it even contains young animated girls makes it highly perverted. Hentai=Porn=Ero Material --- Kj1980 asked if we would consider Kiminozo, Kanon, etc hentai games. Well, the answer to that question from the American point of view is yes. No matter what great story or content was involved in the work (whether it be game, film, or whatever). Any sexual stuff that gets explicit detail would be considered porn. Hence these very games you mentioned are referred to as hentai games by USA fans. Different opinions on acceptable sexual pandering? --- Look at the opinion of one USA anime fan on Sister Princess. What kj1980 and many others would probably consider harmless moe anime: http://www.animejump.com/index.php?m...content&id=560 Fansubs --- I want to make a general note about fansubs here. I was involved back in the VHS days (I will say no more on my roles). There is some bad communication in general going on with today's fans and fansubbers. The attitudes are usually polar extremes: 1) Those who blanketly state don't complain about fansub qualities; you cannot ask anything of amateurs. 2) Those who complain about every minor detail and usually items of the least importance (translation being the last for them). What is wrong with this? The problem is that one of them is not willing to make an effort to try and improve fansubs and the other dismisses it by saying you cannot hold amateurs to a standard of quality. This is not good. There is no exact standard of quality but in the old days if you did a bad job in some manner you would be called on it. Whether you did anything about it was one thing but you rarely saw folks get ultra defensive and dimiss things with our subs are perfect. I like the responses I've seen from the folks working on this sub in this thread. Please continue to listen to constructive feedback. If anything will help improve fansubs it is for groups to get out of the distribution model they are in and let other people distribute while they concentrate on translations and other fansubbing tasks. Participation in threads like this can be a big help. Thanks for listening to my long-winded post. |
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2004-10-23, 22:02
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Link #87 |
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from head to heel
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 42
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Well, I suppose this discussion regarding the usage of the term"hentai" has already been properly addressed--but I would like to just add that it can be quite strange to hear the word "eroge" being clearly spoken while seeing it being translated as "hentai" on the subtitles. And since translation notes were already provided, I can't help but feel that there was a missed chance to address that. For instance, does the term "hentai games" reaaally have to be explained? Is it really that obscure? Those precious seconds might have been better used to address this "eroge" issue instead.
Frankly, I'm quite torn. I'm no authority in this but I believe, as a matter of translation, that it should be kept strictly as "eroge" since this is a show about otaku in Japan and yet, for a broad non-Japanese audience I also understand that perhaps the term "hentai" is more suitable. I guess what I'm trying to stress here is a "clean" translation of specific cultural terms, which as we all know, doesn't always work the way we want to. In the end however, I guess I will be siding with the bias of the anime, that is--it is first and foremost about life as an otaku in Japan. The significance of "eroge" in this context cannot be denied. Anyway with that said, I would like to thank the people working on this fansub. I'm no translator and neither have I played an active role in the fansubbing scene but needless to say, I was impressed with the kind of work that you guys presented. (I'm quite fond of translation notes actually..) I mean, finally! Thank god someone decided to fansub this anime! And thank god it was from a dedicated group! So please..! Keep up the good work. 
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2004-10-24, 01:47
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Link #88 |
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Vampie Walrus. Big fangs
Join Date: Oct 2004
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My friends and I often discuss styles of directing, art, etc when discussing games or anime. Tho we hardly ever use japanese terms (I'll say a girl is cute before I'll call her kawaii or any other such word)
We did this once in a while for nearly two decades but we only started making it a weekend ritual after Saikano aired. It was great fun watching Genshiken and discussing it in such a fashion. As for the sub good job, guys. I really enjoyed it. As I said earlier, I'll be picking up the DVD box. Hopefully somebody will sub the bonus episode too. |
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2004-10-24, 08:03
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Link #89 | ||
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Solar Fansubs
Join Date: Jan 2004
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As for the hentai/eroge thing, we will discuss it some more and decide next time it's mentioned in the anime. |
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2004-10-24, 08:25
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Link #90 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 'a little red dot'
Age: 39
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Pandering to populism is never healthy... Neither should you perpetuate a popular misconception for the sake of accessibility.
It could be as simple as a little note that says '...or popularly known by the misused term hentai game' |
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2004-10-24, 09:25
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Link #91 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
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The "technical" discussion from ep 1 that has been discussed is a good one to examine. Generally fans here have a VERY limited knowledge of how anime is made and how the companies actually operate. For example, many fans here would talk about JC Staff and what great anime they make. When they make this statement they would be referring to the story and other creative design tasks instead of physical animation. That is because they do not realize that JC Staff is basically the industrial end of animation. A good example would be R.O.D. the TV. JC staff did the physical animation but Aniplex were the ones who did the creative development. Fans here would think that JC Staff did the story and design work and then animated it.
(Allow me to make a note here that JC Staff recently did the development of their own anime for the first time: Daphne in the Brilliant Blue. So for that one they creatively produced it and then did the physical animation.) Another common piece of info most fans don't know is that a LOT of physical animation tasks from JP studios are farmed out to S. Korea and other locations and that this has been occurring for YEARS. Now there are even Korean studios which aren't farmed out to but actually contracted to do all the physical animation if I am not mistaken. At Anime Central (an anime convention held in Chicago) the producer of R.O.D. the TV actually stated that in some ways he thinks the S. Koreans have surpassed JP physical animation studios . Until we get more publications here that actually focus on discussiong production of anime, how the JP anime industry works, and interviews with staff we are definitely going to be in the dark. Simply put, a discussion like the ones we see in Geshiken is not common over here because of the lack of knowledgeable people about anime. Over time I have learned to discuss seiyuu with friends because we recognize the voices from previous works. Some of us are so good at this that we can spot many of them after listening for just a bit. However when I hear someone new I like it generally takes awhile for me to remember their name. Reasons for this: 1) I do not have a good reading knowledge of Japanese and there are different readings for Kanji. I cannot look up a name get a pronunciation for it and then remember it. I have to learn the name after someone or some publication tells me how to pronounce it. 2) Even if I get the name it takes awhile for me to be able to remember it because it is not in my native language. This can make it harder to remember because the phonetic sounds differ from what I use in everyday conversation. I even have an advantage in this situation though because I have studied some Japanese before and have a basic listening ability in it. It also helps that I have studied 4 foreign languages so I know how to incoporate foreign stuff. The average anime fan does not have this edge. 3) Because of the above 2 items it is easiest for me to become familiar with seiyuu who play the main characters in a story. So from my point of view after hearing Edward Elric voiced by Paku Romi in FMA I thought she was a fairly new seiyuu when it comes to big roles because I didn't recognize her from anywhere as a main character. This is wrong because she is actually a veteran in the seiyuu business. Geshiken is about otaku culture so I figured everyone would find this interesting ----- Japanese otaku exhibit at Venice Biennale 9th International Architecture Exhibition http://www.jpf.go.jp/venezia-biennal...u/j/index.html Apparently it's about how Otaku have influenced the architecture of Akihabara. |
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2004-10-24, 12:52
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Link #92 | |
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watashi wa chiisaikeredo
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Good grief, I love the episode titles in this series.
Wish I had joined the anime club in university, though I'm not sure if there was even one when I was still there. It would have been nice to hold in-depth discussions about fav series while slacking off in between classes / bumming around after lectures! Quote:
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2004-10-24, 15:19
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Link #93 | |
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/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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(she surprised me a lot  )Hmmm... I really don't like the Kohsaka character, and the anime doesn't help... if anything, ep2 makes me dislike him even more than in the manga 
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2004-10-24, 19:52
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Link #94 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 43
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Just wondering, wouldn't it work better to translate ero-game as love-sim? I know they aren't the exact same thing, but it's a little closer than what "hentai game" makes me think of, then again it's hard to say. Depends on who is reading it really. Some people will asume the worst no matter what you call it.
And eventually I will learn Japanese and understand the who and what of it all (I don't mean I want to learn Japanese to watch anime, that would just be a bonus to my plans). |
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2004-10-24, 20:16
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Link #95 | |
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Gomen asobase desuwa!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Age: 43
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For example, the ero-game "BALDR FORCE EXE" is NOT a love-sim game, it is more like action/ADV RPG-type game. It's kind of like that stupid IQ test question: If some love-sims are ero-games, and if all ero-games have sexual content, then all love-sims have sexual content. The answer is: NO. |
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2004-10-24, 22:54
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Link #96 |
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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We already have a term to call these types of games. It's called an adult game. That's what we call Leisure Suit Larry and the likes. Since you're translating to English, you should use English. Hentai is a Japanese word, and while ero-game is borrowed from English, it is still mostly a Japanese word. Since roxfan mentioned Google as the deciding factor, here's some stat:
378,000 for "adult games" 308,000 for "hentai games" 288,000 for "porn games" 13,400 for "h games" 4,990 for "ero games" |
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2004-10-24, 23:03
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Link #97 | |
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Gomen asobase desuwa!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Age: 43
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From a Japanese persepective, I'm perfectly fine with that usage. However, how do other English speaking people will have is something I wouldn't know...perhaps they might get the image similar to that of "oh, you mean adult games" just like "oh, you mean cartoons" which I hear get much scrutiny from anime fans overseas. |
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2004-10-25, 00:24
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Link #98 |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 43
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Then due to cultural differences there is no good translation. If you were to go ask some random person(in the U.S. anyways) adult game=porn, Hentai game=porn, love sim=probably porn.
(and I know love sim is ren ai that's why I said ero game and love sim aren't the same thing, but that's besides the point) |
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2004-10-25, 01:23
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Link #99 | ||
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/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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It's more like a term used in ACG community, so a term generally agreed by ACG fans should be fine, opinions from people outside of the ACG community don't really matter, or rather, you can't help about it anyway 
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2004-10-25, 02:47
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Link #100 | |
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from head to heel
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 42
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And yup the anime definitely does a good job at VA and sound effects and things... makes the whole thing even funnier 
