General Discussion on the Marines / Navy [Manga]

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Hey guys. Was it ever stated somewhere how many vice admiral positions there are in the marines force? I know that 9 vice admirals have been shown so far in the present time, but is this the maximum number of positions for the vice admiral title?

[BlackNhite]

Hey guys. Was it ever stated somewhere how many vice admiral positions there are in the marines force? I know that 9 vice admirals have been shown so far in the present time, but is this the maximum number of positions for the vice admiral title?

It sounds like you're trying to arrange the Marines in a "Senate" sort of fashion.

Hmm, I suppose what you say is plausible; the Marines as a whole seem to be more a representation of the peoples' government where as the World Govt. is more of a dictatorship.

That in mind, I could see reason why there would be restrictions on high rank positions beyond mere qualification. For one, it's a kind of "easter egg" for the readers and two, it does serve a purpose to the WG as a whole: limiting the "people's power."

Hmm... now I'm thinking deep...

[BlackNhite]

Pacifista are essentially Sentinels, they are androids/cyborgs/whatever that are designed to hunt down and terminate pirates. Each one apparently costs as much as a battleship and if a figure like Vegapunk helped build them... well, think of it in terms of Einstein and the Manhattan Project, the dawning of the new age.

Very soon... the World Government will no... longer need... Marines!?
Oh damn, that just hit me! This will not turn out good, not good at all...

This is actually my own quote from another of the threads and I thought it would be prevalent to post it here.

It's a pretty standard statement, anyone who's seen the movie I ROBOT or anything pertaining to the idea of... "factory replacement" can get the vibe when you look at it a certain way.

The World Government and the Marines operate in a way reminiscent to that of the Roman Emperor and the Senate; a kind of dual-dictatorship if you'll accept the phrasing. We all know that the major problem with this form of rule is that one, if not both, sides always want more.

With this theory of mine floating about, any opinions on what the future hold for the One Piece world?

[OtseisRagnarok]

Originally Posted by BlackNhite

This is actually my own quote from another of the threads and I thought it would be prevalent to post it here.

It's a pretty standard statement, anyone who's seen the movie I ROBOT or anything pertaining to the idea of... "factory replacement" can get the vibe when you look at it a certain way.

The World Government and the Marines operate in a way reminiscent to that of the Roman Emperor and the Senate; a kind of dual-dictatorship if you'll accept the phrasing. We all know that the major problem with this form of rule is that one, if not both, sides always want more.

With this theory of mine floating about, any opinions on what the future hold for the One Piece world?

So, what you're saying is, that there's going to be an ultimate conflict between the WG and the Marines?

[BlackNhite]

Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok

So, what you're saying is, that there's going to be an ultimate conflict between the WG and the Marines?

It hasn't hinted at it enough yet, though there are clearly people like Smoker and Aokiji who use their postions to kind of bend their means of achieving justice.

There's more flak right now between the Marines and Shichibukai, but that's in another forum...

[OtseisRagnarok]

Originally Posted by BlackNhite

It hasn't hinted at it enough yet, though there are clearly people like Smoker and Aokiji who use their postions to kind of bend their means of achieving justice.

Well, that was what I thought you were hinting at. Smoker has his ideals of justice. What if they don't match-up with those of his bosses?

Originally Posted by BlackNhite

There's more flak right now between the Marines and Shichibukai, but that's in another forum...

Well duh. The shichibukai are reformed(Well, kinda) pirates! The marines are supposed to hate pirates. Then they're told that these seven are above the law? That alone should be enough to make some marines want to revolt.

[BlackNhite]

Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok

Well, that was what I thought you were hinting at. Smoker has his ideals of justice. What if they don't match-up with those of his bosses?

They don't, at some point he even told his superiors to eat shit because they wouldn't acknowledge that the Strawhats were the ones who took down Baroque Works.
Aokiji has a similar sense of "True Justice" though he likes to be a bit more... tactical in how he applies his authority. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's one reason why Smoker is currently trying to climb ranks so quickly.

Well duh. The shichibukai are reformed(Well, kinda) pirates! The marines are supposed to hate pirates. Then they're told that these seven are above the law? That alone should be enough to make some marines want to revolt.

The organization itself is falling apart at the seams: two of their members are blatantly using their status to achieve access to the New World, nothing more, one is blatantly disregarding WG protocol, and another is desperately in love with one of the biggest bounty pirates still free for capture.

The situation gets more and more hosed by the minute...

[OtseisRagnarok]

Originally Posted by BlackNhite

They don't, at some point he even told his superiors to eat shit because they wouldn't acknowledge that the Strawhats were the ones who took down Baroque Works.
Aokiji has a similar sense of "True Justice" though he likes to be a bit more... tactical in how he applies his authority. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's one reason why Smoker is currently trying to climb ranks so quickly.



The organization itself is falling apart at the seams: two of their members are blatantly using their status to achieve access to the New World, nothing more, one is blatantly disregarding WG protocol, and another is desperately in love with one of the biggest bounty pirates still free for capture.

The situation gets more and more hosed by the minute...

There you go. And you said it wasn't being hinted at?

[BlackNhite]

Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok

There you go. And you said it wasn't being hinted at?

A cautious man will cover both ends of an argument,
and then be called a hipocrit.

[OtseisRagnarok]

Originally Posted by BlackNhite

A cautious man will cover both ends of an argument,
and then be called a hipocrit.

I believe you spelled hypocrite wrong... I believe the term "devils advocate" is much more applicable, anyway.

[BlackNhite]

Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok

I believe you spelled hypocrite wrong... I believe the term "devils advocate" is much more applicable, anyway.

There's a difference?

[OtseisRagnarok]

Originally Posted by BlackNhite

There's a difference?

Yes. The devil's advocate argues a point without believing in it, simply to prolong conflict, or get feedback.
A hypocrite says something in direct contradiction to what he/she does.

[BlackNhite]

Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok

Yes. The devil's advocate argues a point without believing in it, simply to prolong conflict, or get feedback.
A hypocrite says something in direct contradiction to what he/she does.

Brilliant!
Now I have a cool title!
In fact...

[Rinji]

Gah!!! Everywhere I go, you two are blabbing at each other one after the other! Jeez!

But anyway, I really wanted to talk about SenGoku. I mean if he is the ADMIRAL of everything in the Navy, then how can he be stronger than Kizaru?!

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Rinji

But anyway, I really wanted to talk about SenGoku. I mean if he is the ADMIRAL of everything in the Navy, then how can he be stronger than Kizaru?!

Well, we haven't seen Sengoku do anything at all yet, combat wise, so it very difficult to assess exactly how strong he is. We can be certain that he is very strong since he used to be an admiral, but as of right now we can't accurately gauge his strength in comparison to Aokiji or Kizaru.

One thing needs to be understood though. Just because Sengoku has the highest rank in the marines force (fleet admiral), it doesn't necessarily mean that he is stronger than the admirals. The admirals are the highest ranked fighters in the whole marines force, hence the reason why those three men are referred to as the ultimate assault force and known as having the highest battle potential. Sengoku's main job is to oversee all the activities that are going on within the whole marines force, and thus delegate most to all mandates (authoritative orders or commands if you will) being carried out. He himself really doesn't get directly involved in any affairs concerning pirates and their crimes of piracy. If there are any pirates that have become severe nuisances or serious threats, the vice admirals or admirals (if the pirates are extremely dangerous and formidable) would be dispatched to deal with them.

Furthermore, like Whitebeard, Garp, and Rayleigh, I would be willing to bet that Sengoku is no longer in his fighting prime any more, and thus his strength has diminished somewhat over the years. Because of his age, he may be a little weaker than the current admirals. Even if he is though, Sengoku far outclasses them in terms of experience and he definitely has better leadership skills than they do. I would also suspect that he is more intelligent than they are, since occupying the position of fleet admiral would presumably require outstanding credentials outside of just being super strong. Fleet admiral is a position of great responsibility, and only the overall best candidate is suitable for it. So to reiterate my point, Sengoku may not be as strong as the admirals, in which strength in this case is just one aspect, but in terms of experience, leadership, and intelligence, he is superior to them in those categories and therefore he is the overall best candidate for fleet admiral.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

It's been a while since there's been any discussion in here. I wanted to take a moment to talk about Vice Admiral John Giant. You see, I've always been curious as to why he was the one who dispatched the 5 vice admirals for the buster call on Enies Lobby (Chapter 409 - Pages 6 and 7) considering he is a vice admiral himself. So, my first question is, what exactly gave him the authority to implement the buster call? Was it simply that Aokiji gave him the permission to execute it?

Secondly, we know that it is not an arbitrary decision as to which vice admirals are assigned for that task; the selections are based on which ones happen to be the closest to Marine Headquarters (or within the area) at the time (Chapter 409 - Pages 6 and 7). But there is a slight problem here. John Giant was literally stationed at the Marine Headquarters at the time the buster call was requested, meaning that he was readily available whenever he was needed. With that being said, how come he wasn't one of the 5 vice admirals who participated in the buster call at Enies Lobby? Is it because he has more seniority and/or experience over the other vice admirals? Perhaps he plays more of a leadership role in the marines force, as in he is the one who oversees the activities of the vice admirals? This has really caught my attention.

On a side note, if you notice carefully, John Giant is the only other marine besides Sengoku who has an assortment of medals and ribbons attached to his jacket (Chapter 96 - Page 7). Something tells me that he is going to end up being one of the most important marine characters in the near future, and that he may even play a very big role later on.

[james0246]

^Added to that, Giant, Garp, and Tsuru were the first Vice-Admirals introduced in the series, with Giant being the first Vice-Admiral introduced, so I wouldn't be surprised if he holds massive sway with the Marines probably comparable to Garp.

Additionally, I have always wondered if the 3 Admirals had any connection with the three aforementioned Vice-Admirals. From an ethical standpoint (i.e. their individual views on "Justice"), Garp and Aokiji have a more lax view, Giant and Akuinu have a more stringent absolute view, and Tsuru and Kizaru do not have enough information to know where they stand on the matter (though they appear to be some where in the middle).

That being said, it is possible that his appreance is misleading, that he is really just an administrative person, a Vice-Admiral that controls the accounting division, or something to that effect.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by james0246

Additionally, I have always wondered if the 3 Admirals had any connection with the three aforementioned Vice-Admirals. From an ethical standpoint (i.e. their individual views on "Justice"), Garp and Aokiji have a more lax view, Giant and Akuinu have a more stringent absolute view, and Tsuru and Kizaru do not have enough information to know where they stand on the matter (though they appear to be some where in the middle).

Very perceptive James. Although for some reason, I thought that if any vice admiral was to be similar to Kizaru, it would be Komir. In case you don't remember, he was the one involved in the "Ace's search for Blackbeard" mini story, where Ace disguised himself as a marine officer and managed to sneak into Marine Headquarters to see if he could find out some more information regarding the whereabouts of Blackbeard. He recently appeared again (Chapter 524 - Page 6 - middle bald person in the bottom left panel) where all of the marines have convened at Marineford. Vice Admiral Komir struck me as a goofy character (seeing him with coffee spilled all over him in the mini story), much like Kizaru, so I would say that they are very similar in that respect. As for Tsuru, I think that she would be most like Sengoku, in the sense of them both being tacticians and not putting up with any nonsense whatsoever (as demonstrated in the shichibukai meeting concerning the replacement of Crocodile). In addition to that, she is the direct subordinate of Sengoku, so that also establishes a connection between them.

Now, I am not to be credited for this, but someone on another forum I visit came up with (what I feel) a very good way of describing Kizaru's sense of justice. That person described Kizaru's justice as "Desultory Justice". The word "desultory" is very fitting and appropriate for Kizaru's behaviour; he is reckless, goofy, indiscriminate, and aimless, in his actions. He destroyed a whole mangrove tree and some pirates with a kick all because he didn't get his question concerning the whereabouts of Sentoumaru answered; he messed around with 4 supernovas who had nothing to do with the matter at hand all because of his own incompetence in getting confused on which den den mushi was used to contact someone; and he resorted to capturing 500 pirates since he couldn't apprehend the primary culprits of the Auction House incident. All of these actions of his pretty well describe him as being "desultory", and hence I too feel that it is fitting to classify his justice as "Desultory Justice".

[Rainbowman]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Very perceptive James. Although for some reason, I thought that if any vice admiral was to be similar to Kizaru, it would be Komir. In case you don't remember, he was the one involved in the "Ace's search for Blackbeard" mini story, where Ace disguised himself as a marine officer and managed to sneak into Marine Headquarters to see if he could find out some more information regarding the whereabouts of Blackbeard. He recently appeared again (Chapter 524 - Page 6 - middle bald person in the bottom left panel) where all of the marines have convened at Marineford. Vice Admiral Komir struck me as a goofy character (seeing him with coffee spilled all over him in the mini story), much like Kizaru, so I would say that they are very similar in that respect. As for Tsuru, I think that she would be most like Sengoku, in the sense of them both being tacticians and not putting up with any nonsense whatsoever (as demonstrated in the shichibukai meeting concerning the replacement of Crocodile). In addition to that, she is the direct subordinate of Sengoku, so that also establishes a connection between them.

Now, I am not to be credited for this, but someone on another forum I visit came up with (what I feel) a very good way of describing Kizaru's sense of justice. That person described Kizaru's justice as "Desultory Justice". The word "desultory" is very fitting and appropriate for Kizaru's behaviour; he is reckless, goofy, indiscriminate, and aimless, in his actions. He destroyed a whole mangrove tree and some pirates with a kick all because he didn't get his question concerning the whereabouts of Sentoumaru answered; he messed around with 4 supernovas who had nothing to do with the matter at hand all because of his own incompetence in getting confused on which den den mushi was used to contact someone; and he resorted to capturing 500 pirates since he couldn't apprehend the primary culprits of the Auction House incident. All of these actions of his pretty well describe him as being "desultory", and hence I too feel that it is fitting to classify his justice as "Desultory Justice".

So with this "Desultory Justice", is that supposed to be a mix of the moral and absolute variaties of justice or is it something in between moral and absolute?

i.e.:

moral + absolute = desultory [OR] moral < desultory > absolute

[Kafriel]

Corruption runs deep in the world government, their sense of justice is weak (compromising with the Sichibukai, bowing down to the Tenryuubito despite their blatant crimes, approving of the slave trade and discrimination in shabondy archipelago,etc.), so they use "absolute force" to rule...no matter how bad or flawed it is, only the strong can implement their justice in the world. The marines, on the other hand, are comparatively weak, so they only "do their job" and "follow orders". I think the only exception to this is Luffy's grandfather, he seems to be taking things lightly where others showed (almost) blind obedience.