Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

It is hinted that when the body separates from the egg, that particular MG doesn't have any recollection on what was happening during all the time their link with their Soul Gem was apart.

As Kyouko said, because Sayaka was dead.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Hmm, I was under the assumption Mami's bind prevented her from turning into a magical girl. Speaking of which, it really pissed me off that Madoka didn't manage to tell such a vital information to Sayaka.

Ah, yeah... I didn't notice that Homura wasn't transformed at that time. Geh, the clothes look similar. It pissed me off, too.

Actually, I was thinking she used her own power to travel back in time. We don't know the limits of magic... it's possible that by stocking up or harnessing enough power (maybe by killing Kyubey?), she could expand her abilities and go back in time.

If we assume Homura is Madoka, then it's highly likely she contracted with Kyubey early, since there was no "Homura" to dissuade her from doing so in the original timeline. Sayaka might have taken her place in the current timeline (it seemed like Homura didn't expect her to become a MG).

Interesting... well I guess then the possibilities are infinite if magic can do that much.

[RedWing]

You're missing the significance of Walpurgis Night, after which by the dialogue we can assume Homura no longer cares what happens. I think that weakens the Homura==Madoka. If we also go by Homura's "If you do something stupid, I'm not holding back" we can infer that Homera's wish to stop Madoka becoming a MS is not for the sake of Madoka.

My personal theory is that Walpurgis Night is the turning point in which something in the other timeline involving Madoka destroyed the world or something to that effect. (Madoka being eaten by the creature and it becoming more powerful etc.). Homera has now come back in time to stop Madoka becoming a MS and hence stopping that terrible event. The problem in my theory is that Homura knows of Kyouko and co. so its obvious in her timeline she was close to them (she knew where she hung out with no problem) so who is Homura in this timeline?

[Triple_R]

Redwing - Those are very interesting speculations. They'd also fit nicely with what we know so far about all the key characters involved.

Well, if Homura is from the future but not Madoka, how about... future Hitomi?

She'd like to save Madoka if she can since Madoka was a close friend of her's in the original timeline, but Homura's main concern could be stopping a disaster that, say, killed her parents.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kanon

It's impossible to tell for sure at this point. The way her ability was portrayed on screen, it's either teleporting or time stop (for a couple seconds). At the moment, I'm more inclined to believe it's the latter since it fits with the time traveling theory (who's pretty much confirmed now). Also, one little thing: if Homura has the ability to teleport, she could have teleported on top of the truck instead of going through the trouble of climbing (she had a hard time doing that too). Of course, it's possible she simply ran out of juice or that the truck was too high.

Well, if she teleports I doubt she can calculate how to land on a moving object (the trunk) so that explains that. It's true though, that we can't tell for sure yet.

[Triple_R]

Kawakanai had a speculation earlier on this thread that I'm starting to give more consideration to, and flesh out a bit. Here it is in the following spoiler space.

Spoiler for Spoilers used to save space:

In the original timeline, Homura was Madoka and Madoka was Homura. In other words, the character now called "Homura" was Madoka, the daughter of Junko.

Original Madoka looked like how Homura does now, just in a school girl uniform.

Original Madoka was probably very popular at school due to her beauty and exceptional talents, but had no close friends (like Sayaka and Hitomi) due to a certain degree of social awkwardness.

Now, this is how I think events may have unfolded in the original timeline...

Episode 1: Madoka is walking home from school, alone, and gets caught in that same witch's realm that "new" Madoka (original Homura) and Sayaka became caught in the Episode 1 that we saw. Madoka was saved by original Homura, who is accompanied by Kyubey. Mami is not there in the original timeline, but rather the pink-haired magical girl in the OP is.

Episodes 2 and 3: Madoka feels very grateful to Homura for saving her life, and wants to find out more about Homura and the magical girl life that she lives. So she tags along with Homura and becomes fast friends with her. She probably saw Homura defeat the same witch that Mami eventually faced in the Episode 3 that we saw. However, perhaps Homura won that fight by the skin of her teeth, and that makes "new" Homura realize that Mami is no match for that witch.

Somewhere between Episodes 4 and 10: At some point, Madoka begins to feel very sad for Homura and the lonely, solitary life that Homura is living. Homura was likely involved in a parents-killing car crash just as Mami was. So Madoka wishes to switch places with Homura; to give her life and her family to Homura in return for Madoka taking Homura's place as magical girl. Kyubey grants the wish, and the two girls switch places entirely. To complete this grand wish, the memories of everybody who ever interacted with Madoka has changed to accommodate for the wish.

Now, this would explain "new" Homura having two soul gems, as I think Kazu-Kun said was briefly in a scene in Episode 6.

You see, "new" Homura has two soul gems because she has both her own that is naturally created by becoming a magical girl, as well as the empty remnant of the "original" Homura's that she inherited due to the switch. So, "new" Homura has the power of two magical girls - she inherits "original" Homura's bow and the powers tied to it, as well as getting her own new displacement powers due to her wish.

After the wish is granted, "old" Homura becomes "new" Madoka, and Madoka's memory of ever being a magical girl is erased.

Episodes 11 and 12: Unrelated to the Homura/Madoka switch, the Walpurgis Night shows up and starts destroying the city. "New" Homura goes off to fight it, but is overcome by it. That's when Kyubey turns back to his old magical girl, the original Homura/new Madoka, and asks her to contract with him anew. Madoka does so, and leaps into battle to help Homura. During that battle, Madoka is killed (perhaps the Walpurgis Night even absorbs her powers in the process, making him a graver threat) and Homura is eventually forced to flee against impossible odds.

Sometime in the future: After gaining up enough magical energy and purifying her soul gem enough, Homura uses her powers to jump back in time for two separate reasons - Stop the Walpurgis Night during this second chance opportunity, *and* prevent "new" Madoka from becoming a magical girl again.


Now, Homura going back in time gives rise to Magical Girl Mami.

Here's why (it gets a bit complicated here): In the original timeline, Kyubey contracted with "original" Homura/"new" Madoka and hence never bothered with Mami. But the timeline has now been changed by Homura's wish having retroactive effects. So now in the new timeline, Kyubey ends up contracting with Mami as the "original" Homura has been retroactively given "original" Madoka's life , so she's not there for him to contract with any more.

So in this timeline, Mami takes the place that original Homura took. And in this timeline, Sayaka becomes a factor when she wasn't a factor at all in the original timeline. This, incidentally, is why Sayaka is key, as per some possible revelations recently made in an interview with Homura's voice actress.

So I think that in this timeline, having Sayaka (and possibly Kyoko) helping out against the Walpurgis Night will make a very significant difference, as those two weren't around in the original timeline to help out. This is probably what "new" Homura is counting on - that her and one or both of the two others can overcome the Walpurgis Night as a team, meaning that Madoka can stay safe at home and not get involved.

Of course, the Kyubey of this timeline is blissfully ignorant of most of this, and is just doing his thing contracting magical girls.

So there you go. What to people think? Sorry if that was all really hard to follow.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Vanish

And if she could teleport, she could have escaped Mami's bind, too. But if we assume her ability is time manipulation, then no matter how much time she had, escaping from the bind would have been simply too hard. (or at least even if it was possible to escape the bind, Mami would have been dead by then either way)

I agree with this and it's why I also think she can stop time but not teleport.

So there you go. What to people think? Sorry if that was all really hard to follow.

I'm sorry if what I'm going to say is quite short,but the thing that sticks out to me is that you left Kyoko out of all this yet Homura knows her and says they have "perhaps" met before,so she was involved in the previous timeline somehow.
Also,about the two soul gems,I thought it was confirmed this was an animation error because people started looking and she's shown as only having one everywhere else in the anime,don't have a link though.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by totoum

I'm sorry if what I'm going to say is quite short,but the thing that sticks out to me is that you left Kyoko out of all this yet Homura knows her and says they have "perhaps" met before,so she was involved in the previous timeline somehow.

Ok, fair enough. You can factor Kyoko into the previous timeline.

Also,about the two soul gems,I thought it was confirmed this was an animation error because people started looking and she's shown as only having one everywhere else in the anime,don't have a link though.

Interesting. Oh well.


One brief new speculation (or anti-speculation): A lot of people have predicted that Sayaka's relationship with Kamijo would sour, or end entirely. At the time when most/all of those predictions were made, the idea made some sense to me. Now, however, I'm more skeptical of that. It's no longer necessary in order to put Sayaka through a lot of grief and turmoil (especially if she has amnesia, as she might have).

Right now, I think there's actually an outside chance that Sayaka/Kamijo end up together by the end of this anime. I don't think it's particularly likely, but it's possible. Depends on how dark Urobuchi wants this to be, and/or how happy he wants the ending to be.

[Jimmy C]

It's been pointed out Sayaka is most likely confused as to why she's on the ground instead of talking to Madoka as she last remembered.

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

It's been pointed out Sayaka is most likely confused as to why she's on the ground instead of talking to Madoka as she last remembered.

Plus everyone is silent, plus everyone stares at her, plus Madoka's teary face and the change of positions. So yes, her "What? What happened?" reaction is pretty much natural.


I'd find it weird if she really had amnesia. How does that work? It's a live or die situation. Within 100 meter = alive. 100+ meter = literally soulless = corpse. All you lose is your life (which makes for the everything or nothing-situation). Obviously while you're dead you don't remember anything, but when the soul gem comes into reach again you come back to your senses (life) and you're bound to wonder what happened while you were dead. That is, in case you even know that you were dead because possibly if you knew about the limit and you knew that the soul gem would be 100 meter away you would naturally worry about your life and know that you were dead in case you come back to life.

Physically speaking the body was the same as before. So memories => brain -> same as before = no amnesia. And there's no reason why her memory would magically disappear, nor are her memories part of the soul.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

One brief new speculation (or anti-speculation): A lot of people have predicted that Sayaka's relationship with Kamijo would sour, or end entirely. At the time when most/all of those predictions were made, the idea made some sense to me. Now, however, I'm more skeptical of that. It's no longer necessary in order to put Sayaka through a lot of grief and turmoil (especially if she has amnesia, as she might have).

Right now, I think there's actually an outside chance that Sayaka/Kamijo end up together by the end of this anime. I don't think it's particularly likely, but it's possible. Depends on how dark Urobuchi wants this to be, and/or how happy he wants the ending to be.

Heh, it's possible. But then people would have to face their mistaken assumptions that Sayaka would die or Kamijou would dump her, heh. I'm sure a few of them are wishing they could take those particular things back, or at least not be reminded of them. ;p

But you hit upon a great thing, which is one of the few reasons I still like this anime: we don't know what is going to happen. Practically everything we have is pure speculation, even halfway through the series. Motivations, intents, backstories, conclusion, etc. It's all up in the air.

Will he go for a happy ending? A bad ending? A bittersweet one? A melancholy one with a note of hope?

[Seihai]

To be honest I still think it's not impossible for Sayaka to die or get dumped by Kamijou. About the former I can only add that we can't say it's either right or wrong until the anime finished or until Sayaka is on a total safe spot (or dead).

Regarding the latter topic, you could interpret different things about Sayaka's visit to Kamijou's house and her conclusion. She hears the violin and automatically assumes everything is fine, she doesn't want to interrupt either. But in reality it could be that not everything is fine and now that she is willing to give him more time for himself and his violin business, the distance becomes bigger and something bad might occur.
At least that's how a possible twist can be applied by showing that everything is fine but in reality the situation is slowly and silently deriving. It's because not much from Kamijou is yet shown / known that I can assume that.

But yeah, we don't know what's going to happen. Maybe you don't need to repeat it that often though. (just saying)

[Key Board]

clearly Sayaka's relationship with Kyousuke is not working out. Did he even bother to tell her that he left the hospital? Is he anything more than a stalker to him? To me it's she is already losing in that area.

and all of this is happening because Sayaka did not wish for love. She wished for a recovery. This is something that Mami warned about and what Kyoko made fun of.

Keeping this in mind and what Madoka's mother said to her, I am starting to wonder that perhaps, the theme of this story is that IT IS OKAY TO BE SELFISH

Which goes against the normal conventions of any magical girl story that I know of

As for endings.. well.. I to my knowledge I am familiar with everything that Gen Urobuchi has penned. And to my knowledge this is the very first time he has nearly full liberties on how the story will proceed.

So I expect a bittersweet ending that is paid in blood or tears.. well more of them

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Vanish

But yeah, we don't know what's going to happen. Maybe you don't need to repeat it that often though. (just saying)

Heh, I'd love to. But when you get people repeating opinions as fact often enough, and treating assumptions as fact, there is no recourse. You have to nip those lies in the bud early, so no one else is deceived.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vanish

I'd find it weird if she really had amnesia. How does that work?

It wouldn't be too large a leap of logic for the anime to say that her becoming so distantly separated from her soul gem gave a nasty jolt to Sayaka's physical body, resulting not only in temporary death, but also memory loss.

I mean, I've seen similar logic in comic books all. the. time.

So if this anime decided to go that route, I honestly wouldn't blink an eye at it. It might not go that way, of course, but I wouldn't be shocked by it. Especially given the cliffhanger note that Episode 6 ended on.

And there's no reason why her memory would magically disappear, nor are her memories part of the soul.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Many people conceive of the soul as a person's inner essence. Many people also conceive of memories as what makes up a person's inner essence.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Heh, it's possible. But then people would have to face their mistaken assumptions that Sayaka would die or Kamijou would dump her, heh. I'm sure a few of them are wishing they could take those particular things back, or at least not be reminded of them. ;p

Heh.

Well, it was a speculation almost as commonly held as "Kyubey is evil".

It still might happen, of course, but it's by no means the sort of virtual certainty that a lot of people were saying, imo.

But you hit upon a great thing, which is one of the few reasons I still like this anime: we don't know what is going to happen.

Agreed. I'm glad that some of the more common speculations aren't turning out to be correct, or at least not as quickly as people thought they would.

Practically everything we have is pure speculation, even halfway through the series. Motivations, intents, backstories, conclusion, etc. It's all up in the air.

Will he go for a happy ending? A bad ending? A bittersweet one? A melancholy one with a note of hope?

I'm leaning towards one of the last two of those four, but you never know.

Originally Posted by Vanish

To be honest I still think it's not impossible for Sayaka to die or get dumped by Kamijou.

Oh, it definitely could happen, it just seems far less than a certainty to me at this point.

Originally Posted by Key Board

clearly Sayaka's relationship with Kyousuke is not working out. Did he even bother to tell her that he left the hospital?

Have you ever been released from hospital?

I have, a couple times.

Once a hospital releases you, that's it, you're gone. It's a very quick procedure, and you're usually not given a lot of time to pick up your things and get going. You certainly don't have enough time to call everyone you know and tell them that you're being released from hospital.

Now, maybe it works differently in Japan, but if it's the same as it is where I live, I can totally understand Kamijo not getting around to informing Sayaka of his hospital release yet.

And honestly, it wouldn't be some great crime for a guy to absent-mindedly forget to tell one of his friends that he was released from hospital.

Kamijo clearly doesn't view Sayaka as his girlfriend, but going by how he spoke to her and treated her in Episode 5, he does seem to consider her a friend. His family certainly didn't mind having Sayaka on the rooftop with them to listen to Kamijo's first violin recital since his hand healed, and that says a lot, imo.


In any event, my main point is that we no longer need Kamijo and Sayaka's relationship going sour in order to put Sayaka through a lot of turmoil. The overall magical girl situation is doing that quite nicely all on its own. So, it's really just a question of whether or not Urobuchi decides to...

1) Let Sayaka live through this anime.

2) Have a very nice romance in it. I honestly find the whole Kamijo/Sayaka relationship very lovely. I'm surprised that so many people are very cynical about it, and seem to want nothing more than for it not to work out. I mean, if it does work out, it'll make for a simply beautiful romantic subplot, imo.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Key Board

clearly Sayaka's relationship with Kyousuke is not working out. Did he even bother to tell her that he left the hospital?

Yep,if he was really interested in her he would have told her,that's the first sign,it might not be as extreme as some predicted but in the end it seems he doesn't care that much about her.

[Dark Wing]

Someone posted an interesting theory on /a/ so I wanted to share see what you all thought?

[panzerfan]

It's only one of many interpretation of the Faustian lore to be honest. It would of course assume that the act of using magic is that of witchcraft and the witch hunt is actually a sin in itself. Faustian lore typically are stepped in Christan traditions as a primary assumption. This argument presented, which I've seen on #madoka is actually not horrific.

Some things to keep in mind is that dualism, the separation of body and soul, would be perfectly supported under Christian views and serve no conflict with this interpretation. Moreover, this fits in nicely with the Christian dogma about the struggle of the Serpent with God.

Yet... Kyubey does not play to the Goethe Faust's Mephistopheles in role. In a show where Goethe's tenants run so deep as to be echoed by Madoka's mother in her dialogue with Madoka just in episode 6, for there not to be showing of Mephistopheles defending his position and actively guide Faust would be a massive deviation from this heavily referred source.

The conflict between heaven and hell is another source of concern that I have with this theory. In most Faustian lore, the significant of the game afoot have never been such that they would give the Serpent a decisive, tangible edge against Heaven. Most Faustian lore structure themselves as an ideological exercise played out using Faust as a game piece, if you will. Suggesting that this game of witches and magical girls would have such implication is not sufficiently supported to me.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Yet... Kyubey does not play to the Goethe Faust's Mephistopheles in role. In a show where Goethe's tenants run so deep as to be echoed by Madoka's mother in her dialogue with Madoka just in episode 6, for there not to be showing of Mephistopheles defending his position and actively guide Faust would be a massive deviation from this heavily referred source.

Could you elaborate a bit on this? What do you mean by "Mephistopheles defending his position and actively guide Faust" exactly?

Putting that aside for now, I'd disagree that if there's some heavy references to Goethe's Faust, everything should necessarily play out in the same way. What would be the point in that? I mean, even if this little chat between Madoka and her mother is permeated by Goethe's references, it doesn't mean Kyubey should behave exactly in the same way Goethe's Mephistopheles would do, even if he was taking that role, right?

Goethe might be the main inspiration, but Gen would probably add his own twist to it, I'd think.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

One brief new speculation (or anti-speculation): A lot of people have predicted that Sayaka's relationship with Kamijo would sour, or end entirely. At the time when most/all of those predictions were made, the idea made some sense to me. Now, however, I'm more skeptical of that. It's no longer necessary in order to put Sayaka through a lot of grief and turmoil (especially if she has amnesia, as she might have).

Right now, I think there's actually an outside chance that Sayaka/Kamijo end up together by the end of this anime. I don't think it's particularly likely, but it's possible. Depends on how dark Urobuchi wants this to be, and/or how happy he wants the ending to be.

With Kyoko reminding us in this last episode that wishes for others go "horribly wrong" (on top of Mami already spelling this out), I think you're being very optimistic in thinking things are going to be all peachy on the Kamijo front.

If there's any consolation to be had, it is highly unlikely Sayaka is going to die before we see her wish go "horribly wrong". So, if you like Sayaka, you can at least take solace in that. ;p And, if Sayaka's main purpose is to show us how making a foolish wish turns out, then her death or survival is superfluous to that really.

But, maybe, that's just me.

[panzerfan]

@Kazu-kun:

Mephistopheles the character, with Goethe's Faust, goes sometimes as far as to state out why Faust should look out for example and urge him to flee for example, from certain death. The last act of the first part of the story is one that comes to my immediate attention. I think I would digress if I were to elaborate on this, so I will stop at this point. Nevertheless, what you have said is correct in that Gen does have his liberties. Not every single Faustian lore shows the devil as being so involved as in Goethe's retelling.