High School DxD Light Novel - Archived Speculation & Theories

[GDB]

Originally Posted by XFire

I didn't say they were the original article. However, they are "heroes" in the same sense that the people from the Hero Faction are. Descendants of heroes are called heroes in-universe. Therefore, they are "heroes".

Originally Posted by whitecloud

Is there any TRUE heroes in the human side? What we got is a bunch of hero-terrorist, there is true heroes in the class of original arthur or something

Read the question that was being responded to, and then facepalm back at yourself. Arthur and Morgan are the closest to "true" human heroes, but we never see them really doing much so we aren't sure how heroic they are beyond being strong and not being completely anarchy-focused.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by XFire

I didn't say they were the original article. However, they are "heroes" in the same sense that the people from the Hero Faction are. Descendants of heroes are called heroes in-universe. Therefore, they are "heroes".

And from the perspective of humans, the Hero Faction group were "real Heroes", since they stood against the supernatural forces that use humanity. We know it isn't like that because we see things from Ise's perspective, but even he admits that if he were a human the idea of the Alliance would terrify him.

Originally Posted by GDB

Read the question that was being responded to, and then facepalm back at yourself. Arthur and Morgan are the closest to "true" human heroes, but we never see them really doing much so we aren't sure how heroic they are beyond being strong and not being completely anarchy-focused.

If you're going to quote me, quote my entire post. Do not ignore part of it to fit what you want.

The Hero Faction are heroes from the human perspective, in the same way their namesakes were. This is acknowledged repeatedly in-universe. By the leaders of the factions being targeted. They. Are. Heroes.

Arthur and Le Fay are part of the group going around beating the shit out of strong enemies, so they could qualify as well. The only objection would be that they team up with non-humans, but Vali's group ignores humans (and everyone else) if they aren't strong enough to be interesting.

[GDB]

If by human perspective, you mean ignorant perspective, then sure. However, that same group of "heroes" was kidnapping and brainwashing anyone they could find with a Sacred Gear and committing terrorist actions. That's not heroic, hence the term "true heroes" and him excluding the "hero terrorists".

The closest to a true hero for the humans, ironically enough, is Issei's group. This isn't about perspective, but "reality". Unfortunately, none are humans unless you count Morgan le Fay as part of the group.

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by Chris38

^ Well, I doubt that we are going to have an epilogue with a time skip so huge, that pretty much everyone apart from Ise and Ophis would already be dead (after all, if I'm not mistaken Devils have a lifespan of about ten thousand years).

A short story is more likely, but a story like that, might be pretty boring, after all, if Ise actually becomes as strong as Great Red or Ophis, no one would take a risk of fighting him anymore.

Well I agree with you a short story would be more likely I don't think it would be boring sure we wouldn't get huge battle but it could make for interesting side story since we could meet Ise children and let's face it with a harem his side there are going to be a few.

Not to mention, rather then making Ise more and more overpowered, I would like it more, if ... Ise would finally gain some more technique in his attacks / skills.

I'm not saying that it has to be at the level of Sierzechs or some other technique type people, like Cao Cao for example, but that it would definitely make Ise a more formidable opponent, if he also had a few techniques in his skill set, apart from just plain power.

I think that the author is already realizing this, which is the reason why Ise has started including Ascalon's dragon slaying aura into his Boosted Gear attacks.

I also hope that Great Red's / Ophis existence is going to provide Ise with even more technique based abilities, rather then something that, just contains pure power, since I think that, something like that, would make Ise a more balanced character, and ... at the same time, prevent Ise's future fights from becoming too repetitive.

I'm hoping Ise gets more technique based in the actual series rather then just simple raw power. But Ise is also already heading that to a certain degree he has a descent array of abilities even if many of them do use a brute force approach.

Originally Posted by Somethindarker

The reason the girls were sent to his home is that dragons naturally form harems because of dragons swagger. Sirzechs and Azazel know that the more happy Issei is the more he'll grow attached to them which will in turn make him become stronger. If the parents were REALLY that much in danger they would just mind control them like always and have them move to the underworld. If his parents knew they would probably not care much, they seem like the easy going type.

I think Sirzechs was trying to do this just to increase Ise power he probably also saw it as a good way to push his little sister forward in her relationship with Ise by adding some more competition. Afterall Asia wasn't getting the job done.
And as far as dragon swagger goes just look at Saji his was strong enough with just 1 of Vritra's 4 SG was enough to get him 2 ladies.

Originally Posted by Chris38

I think that you are over analyzing it.

Since even without the girls presence, Ise's human parents live in a place that is more then, well protected by the alliance's power.

It's just that those protective measures haven't been given a lot of details in the novels.

Well in vol 5 they did briefly mention the house had been reinforced so it could withstand a war.

[Tbolt]

[QUOTE=kusabireika;4842251]I wonder the reason that all girls are in issei home coz issei parent might targeted by enemies •_• just wondering, I wonder if the Khaos brigade might target them and use them as hostage •_• lastly what will happen if issei parent knows that issei is a devil

Volume 4, special life. "According to the story, Sirzechs-sama apparently proposed this for the sake of improving the physical relationship of our family."

The only thing mentioned about any attack was the new house being able to survive a war, and Ise wondering if there were any cannons hidden in the house.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by GDB

If by human perspective, you mean ignorant perspective, then sure. However, that same group of "heroes" was kidnapping and brainwashing anyone they could find with a Sacred Gear and committing terrorist actions. That's not heroic, hence the term "true heroes" and him excluding the "hero terrorists".

The closest to a true hero for the humans, ironically enough, is Issei's group. This isn't about perspective, but "reality". Unfortunately, none are humans unless you count Morgan le Fay as part of the group.

Wrong.

Sorry, but your just wrong here.

In case the constant in-universe reminders weren't enough, the Gremories and their allies are extremely abnormal in their level of kindness to both servants and others. Remember how Raiser reacted when he was "forced" to come to the Human World to see Rias? That was a moderate reaction.

All three of the Biblical factions use humans for their convenience, and before you say anything, remember Abe, the beast trainer senpai? She was someone who knew about the hidden side of the world, and it was common sense to her to guard her words around Rias lest she lose her soul.

And this is not including the who knows how many people die because of fights between supernatural beings. It doesn't even have to be a war, it could just be some random rouge devil.

The Heroes came about in the first place to fight monsters and supernatural beings. And while their descendants are certainly less than praiseworthy in their methods, they are basically doing the same thing.

Now once more, because you seem to have ignored this part: the heads of the Biblical factions acknowledge that from the perspective of humanity in general (as in, the ones who know whats going on) they are the bad guys and the Heroes would be the good ones.

About the kidnapping thing: yes, Cao Cao is an ass for doing this. However, remember Reynalle? She killed Ise on Azazels orders because he was holding a potentially dangerous Sacred Gear. The Asia thing was out of line and would have gotten her into trouble, but Ise's death was a straightforward order. Azazel admits this. The factions are as bad as the Heroes. And in later volumes it's revealed that during the attack of the Jabberwocky and Bandersnatch, many reincarnated devils who (this is explicitly mentioned in text) had been forced to become servants for their powers (i.e. Sacred Gears) revolted.

I forgot what we were arguing about.

[Somethindarker]

Originally Posted by XFire

Wrong.

Sorry, but your just wrong here.

In case the constant in-universe reminders weren't enough, the Gremories and their allies are extremely abnormal in their level of kindness to both servants and others. Remember how Raiser reacted when he was "forced" to come to the Human World to see Rias? That was a moderate reaction.

All three of the Biblical factions use humans for their convenience, and before you say anything, remember Abe, the beast trainer senpai? She was someone who knew about the hidden side of the world, and it was common sense to her to guard her words around Rias lest she lose her soul.

And this is not including the who knows how many people die because of fights between supernatural beings. It doesn't even have to be a war, it could just be some random rouge devil.

The Heroes came about in the first place to fight monsters and supernatural beings. And while their descendants are certainly less than praiseworthy in their methods, they are basically doing the same thing.

Now once more, because you seem to have ignored this part: the heads of the Biblical factions acknowledge that from the perspective of humanity in general (as in, the ones who know whats going on) they are the bad guys and the Heroes would be the good ones.

About the kidnapping thing: yes, Cao Cao is an ass for doing this. However, remember Reynalle? She killed Ise on Azazels orders because he was holding a potentially dangerous Sacred Gear. The Asia thing was out of line and would have gotten her into trouble, but Ise's death was a straightforward order. Azazel admits this. The factions are as bad as the Heroes. And in later volumes it's revealed that during the attack of the Jabberwocky and Bandersnatch, many reincarnated devils who (this is explicitly mentioned in text) had been forced to become servants for their powers (i.e. Sacred Gears) revolted.

I forgot what we were arguing about.

Yup but you seem to be ignoring one simple fact. That while the heroes were originally put there to stamp out devils and other supernatural beings, that was in the past. Admittedly every faction does NOT have clean hands in no way shape or form but neither do the humans in the past OR the present.

It's been shown that the Old Maou faction is pretty much just like their originators that were killed during the great war and resent the current Maou for changing things and pulling out of the war. Rias said that while sometimes bad deals are made where the humans are victimized it is not the norm for the current devil system who has been trying to imitate the human society by making devil contracts like a business.

In the past the heroes were a necessity that would take out the supernaturals to protect humanity but now they are just a relic with no real reason for existence since everything has changed since the current Maou took power. There is a reason why Le Fay and Arthur don't associate with them because they've seen that they are blinded by their own pride in the past to move past it and change... Just like the Old Maou faction.

Let me get back to the good point you made earlier about Reynalle killing Issei. While it may look bad. From their point of view it was an absolute necessity. The 3 factions had been at odds yes, but their battles were mostly small scaled and no humans, as a whole, would get hurt aside from slight collateral damage and such. If Issei who was the Sekiryuutei would've unlocked his power Vali of course would've challenged him and their battle would not only cause massive human casualties but threaten the peace that Azazel, Sirzechs and Micheal had no doubt been planning for years probably. Kokobiels whole attack was because he KNEW Azazel was planning a peace summit so killing Issei to protect his plans is justified in the big picture.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Somethindarker

Yup but you seem to be ignoring one simple fact. That while the heroes were originally put there to stamp out devils and other supernatural beings, that was in the past. Admittedly every faction does NOT have clean hands in no way shape or form but neither do the humans in the past OR the present.

Really? Because as far as I remember there was no indication of past humans committing the same acts. However, either way is irrelevant. Because Heroes didn't come about to destroy the other races but to resist them, as normal humans were powerless against them. You remember the school attack in vol 14? That happened because devils lived in that school. And afterwards the students had their memory erased, through a process Azazel admits is dangerous. Ise himself says (and it's acknowledged by both Saji and Sona) that them living there has endangered the normal humans.

Originally Posted by Somethindarker

It's been shown that the Old Maou faction is pretty much just like their originators that were killed during the great war and resent the current Maou for changing things and pulling out of the war. Rias said that while sometimes bad deals are made where the humans are victimized it is not the norm for the current devil system who has been trying to imitate the human society by making devil contracts like a business.

No, she said her group didn't support the type of contract where the soul is taken as compensation. While heavily implying that there are others who do. And it isn't just the devils, all supernatural beings effect normal human lives with their interactions for their own purposes. Hell, even the angels do it.

Originally Posted by Somethindarker

In the past the heroes were a necessity that would take out the supernaturals to protect humanity but now they are just a relic with no real reason for existence since everything has changed since the current Maou took power. There is a reason why Le Fay and Arthur don't associate with them because they've seen that they are blinded by their own pride in the past to move past it and change... Just like the Old Maou faction.

No, Arthur says he chose Vali's group because he didn't care about fighting a war, but just strong opponents. The Hero group does take pride in their ancestry, but it has little to do with their current actions. The Old Maou is the one caught up in the past. Cao Cao just wants to prevent or disrupt the alliance because he feels its harmful to humanity in general.

Originally Posted by Somethindarker

Let me get back to the good point you made earlier about Reynalle killing Issei. While it may look bad. From their point of view it was an absolute necessity. The 3 factions had been at odds yes, but their battles were mostly small scaled and no humans, as a whole, would get hurt aside from slight collateral damage and such. If Issei who was the Sekiryuutei would've unlocked his power Vali of course would've challenged him and their battle would not only cause massive human casualties but threaten the peace that Azazel, Sirzechs and Micheal had no doubt been planning for years probably. Kokabiels whole attack was because he KNEW Azazel was planning a peace summit so killing Issei to protect his plans is justified in the big picture.

That. Is. The. Point.

Reynalle killing Ise was not her being a bitch (the way she did it was, but that's not important) it was her following orders. It was normal. When confronted, Azazel gives Ise an annoyed look and comments "It's only natural to eliminate powers that could potentially threaten the organization". This was just how they operated.

Also, Kokabiel had no idea there was going to be a conference, because there wasn't one at the time. He was trying to restart the war because he was dissatisfied with the conclusion. Hell, the conference wasn't even a peace conference, it was an attempt to keep the stalemate from collapsing after Kokabiels actions. Azazel just built off that to try and make the peace official.


Now let me be clear on something. I don't support the Hero Factions actions, nor am I accusing the Gremories of anything. I'm simply pointing out that this is not a Black and White Morality situation. It is at best one where both sides are in the Gray area.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by XFire

Now let me be clear on something. I don't support the Hero Factions actions, nor am I accusing the Gremories of anything. I'm simply pointing out that this is not a Black and White Morality situation. It is at best one where both sides are in the Gray area.

Then I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing. It's obvious the higher powers aren't "clean", and the Yuusha Faction (I don't like calling them the Hero Faction since they certainly aren't heroes) are just as dirty, if not moreso.

The original question was whether there were any "true heroes" for humans, to which the answer is basically "no".

[zzhk]

If you're trying to leave words untranslated, 英雄 is eiyuu, not yuusha.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by GDB

Then I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing. It's obvious the higher powers aren't "clean", and the Yuusha Faction (I don't like calling them the Hero Faction since they certainly aren't heroes) are just as dirty, if not moreso.

The original question was whether there were any "true heroes" for humans, to which the answer is basically "no".

But they are, if all we look at are the humans. From their perspective the Alliance is evil and the Heroes are good for fighting them. So the question is technically a yes.

[GDB]

Two evils fighting each other does not make one "good" just because one reacted to the other.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by GDB

Two evils fighting each other does not make one "good" just because one reacted to the other.

You aren't listening. We were talking about humanities perspective. The Hero Faction fights the supernatural beings that endanger their lives, so they are "real heroes" to humans. This is acknowledged in story, so arguing against it is pointless. From the Alliances perspective they are terrorists, but from humanities they are heroes. So in answer to the question "are there any real heroes for the humans" the answer is yes.

[kusabireika]

Off topic

1st maybe there is different types of heroes

There are bad heroes, good heroes and battle freak heroes ehem Arthur ....

I rest my case :3

[GDB]

Originally Posted by XFire

You aren't listening. We were talking about humanities perspective. The Hero Faction fights the supernatural beings that endanger their lives, so they are "real heroes" to humans.

The heroes faction endangers humans too. They aren't real heroes to humans.

This is acknowledged in story, so arguing against it is pointless.

Not by humans it isn't. Not ones that aren't also terrorists, at least.

From the Alliances perspective they are terrorists, but from humanities they are heroes. So in answer to the question "are there any real heroes for the humans" the answer is yes.

Sorry, but to be real heroes you cannot commit the same atrocities, if not worse atrocities, that you claim to fight against. There's a reason a term like anti-hero exists.

[Somethindarker]

Originally Posted by XFire

Spoiler:

Really? Because as far as I remember there was no indication of past humans committing the same acts. However, either way is irrelevant. Because Heroes didn't come about to destroy the other races but to resist them, as normal humans were powerless against them. You remember the school attack in vol 14? That happened because devils lived in that school. And afterwards the students had their memory erased, through a process Azazel admits is dangerous. Ise himself says (and it's acknowledged by both Saji and Sona) that them living there has endangered the normal humans.



No, she said her group didn't support the type of contract where the soul is taken as compensation. While heavily implying that there are others who do. And it isn't just the devils, all supernatural beings effect normal human lives with their interactions for their own purposes. Hell, even the angels do it.



No, Arthur says he chose Vali's group because he didn't care about fighting a war, but just strong opponents. The Hero group does take pride in their ancestry, but it has little to do with their current actions. The Old Maou is the one caught up in the past. Cao Cao just wants to prevent or disrupt the alliance because he feels its harmful to humanity in general.



That. Is. The. Point.

Reynalle killing Ise was not her being a bitch (the way she did it was, but that's not important) it was her following orders. It was normal. When confronted, Azazel gives Ise an annoyed look and comments "It's only natural to eliminate powers that could potentially threaten the organization". This was just how they operated.

Also, Kokabiel had no idea there was going to be a conference, because there wasn't one at the time. He was trying to restart the war because he was dissatisfied with the conclusion. Hell, the conference wasn't even a peace conference, it was an attempt to keep the stalemate from collapsing after Kokabiels actions. Azazel just built off that to try and make the peace official.


Now let me be clear on something. I don't support the Hero Factions actions, nor am I accusing the Gremories of anything. I'm simply pointing out that this is not a Black and White Morality situation. It is at best one where both sides are in the Gray area.

The only point I was trying to make was that EVERY faction has it's bad and good parts ie; gray area morality like you put it. Although imo the hero faction instead of trying to protect humanity, they were seeking all out conflict whether for greed or pride.

Also it takes two to commit to a soul being taken through a contract, if someone is stupid enough to let their greed overpower their common sense that's their problem. From what I gathered in the novels is that the norm in devil society is to make contracts for money or monetary gain like the Gremory's do.

Originally Posted by XFire

You aren't listening. We were talking about humanities perspective. The Hero Faction fights the supernatural beings that endanger their lives, so they are "real heroes" to humans. This is acknowledged in story, so arguing against it is pointless. From the Alliances perspective they are terrorists, but from humanities they are heroes. So in answer to the question "are there any real heroes for the humans" the answer is yes.

Well from my, a human, perspective they aren't really heroes. Heroes protect those that need help and punish the guilty. All the "heroes" are doing is attacking the strongest group only because they are devils that are strong even if they are innocent.

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by XFire

Reynalle killing Ise was not her being a bitch (the way she did it was, but that's not important) it was her following orders. It was normal. When confronted, Azazel gives Ise an annoyed look and comments "It's only natural to eliminate powers that could potentially threaten the organization". This was just how they operated.

Well to be fair Ise was far more of threat then just a threat to then just to the Fallen Angels organization it's extremely unlikely he could have controlled his power he probably would have cause a lot of collateral damage.
Heck Rias had to partially seal his powers after he became a devil.

Originally Posted by kusabireika

Off topic

1st maybe there is different types of heroes

There are bad heroes, good heroes and battle freak heroes ehem Arthur ....

I rest my case :3

Well a lot of it does depend on perspective whether your regarded as a hero or villain, soldier or terrorist largely depends on things like whether your side won or at least survived somewhat intact and there by who is telling the story.

Originally Posted by GDB

Sorry, but to be real heroes you cannot commit the same atrocities, if not worse atrocities, that you claim to fight against. There's a reason a term like anti-hero exists.

But unfortunately especially with a story like this it would still be a matter of perspective with a lot of the stuff as to whether what your doing is committing an atrocity of slaying a monster and it's brood of hell spawn. The thing is the Griemory group has caused you to humanize supernatural beings it's rather unlikely to happen with a human in there universe normal person would see them as a monster pure and simple and those in the know wouldn't think much better given the sketchy nature of the groups.

[kusabireika]

super heated discussion 0_0 cant join i guess i will not join this one

[Chris38]

Well, to bring some kind of change to the discussed topic, recently I started wondering what are going to be the potential power ups of the other members of the Occult Research Club.

Most specifically, what are going to be the power ups of Rossweisse and Irina, since I think that the other members path to become stronger, have been more or less covered in volume 14 of the novels.

This is my current speculation on this topic:

In the case of Rossweisse, I think that her next power up is going to be related with the Valkyrie part of her being, since ... from what I remember, apart from being able to use a huge variety of magic spells , we haven't got a clear explanation on what a Valkyrie is capable of, in this novel, and I think that it would be interesting if the author has given us some more details about this.

Irina's case is more difficult, since the only thing that I can think of, which would also not turn Irina into an Akeno clone from the Angel side, is for her to actually start being able to use her Brave Saint traits as an individual - since, after all, we haven't got a clear explanation on what kind of abilities a resurrected Angel gets, from this system.

[kusabireika]

Originally Posted by Chris38

Well, to bring some kind of change to the discussed topic, recently I started wondering what are going to be the potential power ups of the other members of the Occult Research Club.

Most specifically, what are going to be the power ups of Rossweisse and Irina, since I think that the other members path to become stronger, have been more or less covered in volume 14 of the novels.

This is my current speculation on this topic:

In the case of Rossweisse, I think that her next power up is going to be related with the Valkyrie part of her being, since ... from what I remember, apart from being able to use a huge variety of magic spells , we haven't got a clear explanation on what a Valkyrie is capable of, in this novel, and I think that it would be interesting if the author has given us some more details about this.

Irina's case is more difficult, since the only thing that I can think of, which would also not turn Irina into an Akeno clone from the Angel side, is for her to actually start being able to use her Brave Saint traits as an individual - since, after all, we haven't got a clear explanation on what kind of abilities a resurrected Angel gets, from this system.

About Ross I guess I wonder what will her power up if I remember correctly beside there magic power they have power to use soul of heroes or fallen to become their guardian aid in battle


About irina I guess beside the user of mass produce holy demonic sword, what do you think will her powerup?