2009-12-27, 16:07 | Link #321 | |
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About my jab earlier at Otakus I was mostly joking around but it is true. Moree and more of these guys are trying to escape from reaity without facing them, become otakus, turn suicidal or become violent, that seems to be the answer
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Last edited by Dark Mage; 2009-12-27 at 16:26. |
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2009-12-27, 18:00 | Link #322 | |
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For example you will not see in shounen the hero forcing the heroine, while in shoujo it is the most common thing ever. It quite often look like rape even. Different audience with different tastes. You could also blame shoujo fans for liking violence against females with such resolve since a lot of shoujo's have that stuff in them. You can say that looking at the female as an object which value is determined by her innocence (which physical expression is the virginity), but there also some weird connotations regarding shoujo as well. Its just the matter of audience and what they want. Our society creates some tropes that manga's follow. Why in shoujo it is the girls first kiss while the guy even if not a man-slut is still quite well experienced etc. Different audiences have different likings, and you can find sexism in the shoujo as well so I cannot say that shounen is worse than shoujo in that aspect. Its just that in shounen they value the heroine's innocence while in shoujo the preference is put on hero's experience (while heroine is innocent). The problem is when its expression steps over the limit. But it is also true that clichéd sexist stuff pleases masses more than liberal one, so if it sells better it is natural for mangaka's to aim to get most of it. Which creates a clichés for shounen and shoujo which are expected, difference to which can cause controversy. |
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2009-12-27, 19:45 | Link #323 |
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Thats something I don't get with some shoujo manga. Take Hot Gimmick for example, the heroine was in such an abusive relationship yet she likes it...WTF. The person who shows her the most devotion and kindness gets the shortest end of the stick. Go figure...
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2009-12-27, 20:17 | Link #324 | |
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Location: Philadelphia, Pa
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You make a lot of generalizations but that doesn't make them right. Not long ago Yuri was a genre relegated to morbid Shoujo's and hidden subtext but not that genre has exploded into almost every demographic. Cliches are created because it is shown to work but that does not mean that a story should be limited to those things. Before these things became cliches they had to have someone able to take risk on them. Did Dragonball Z become popular by following what its predecessors were doing? No, the author made a lot of cliches we follow today in shounen by doing things his predecessors never did. Even today we see a lot of changes going on in these demographics. The anti-hero is becoming quite popular (Code Breaker for example) while before in Shounen the main hero was always pure good. This is changing. Don't want a innocent shoujo heroine why not read the massively popular "Nana"? It certainly did it best to show a much more realist story and you can say that a show like Revolutionary Girl Utena made it popularity by subverting the entire Shoujo and fantasy genres. When you try something new you often invite controversy but that not always a bad thing and is more often that not a good thing. I remember when people said a show like Xena and Buffy the Vampire Slayer would never work because of there female protagonist who were more often that not very sexually liberated especially Xena. Both shows took a lot of heat when they first started out too. Honestly, no one is forcing people to read her work. If you don't like it you can choose not to read it but that doesn't mean that she did anything wrong by trying to do something outside the box and challenge her readers to be more open minded on things like this.
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2009-12-27, 20:54 | Link #325 |
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Perhaps those themes do give the female readers the wrong impression of how a relationship should go (Which seems to be the point you're arguing), but what I'm trying to say is that the demand for virginity seems to come from a different place. Abuse in most female focused entertainment whether it be Shoujo or a Lifetime movie isn't about glorifying or idealizing that lifestyle, it's about creating tension for the female protagonist to overcome, albeit some authors have trouble spelling out the message properly. In other words, domestic abuse is used because it's an easily recognizable device that the audience will recognize and help to make them care about the story, it isn't intended (Key word here) to represent how a relationship should be nor what your partner should be like.
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2009-12-27, 21:06 | Link #326 |
The Last Frontier
Join Date: Apr 2004
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You'd be a worse storyteller if you just had good stuff happening. It's like lord of the rings, or what Samwise said during the story. How all the stories have heroes facing insurmountable odds and sometimes tragedy but that made the good ending at the end even better. Compared to a story where the hero just breezes by on everything.
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2009-12-27, 21:26 | Link #327 | |
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2009-12-28, 04:06 | Link #329 | |
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Yes, it changes, but it is obvious that this part is not ready to change yet, it causes controversy but it hardly makes manga more popular. It causes more discussions (like how GE thread in here was before chapter 11 and after it) however it hardly benefits the mangaka's because they are up for a personal attacks on them (though I think GE mangaka is really way too emotional there because frankly Kannagi or Evangelion had much worse feedback than she had and she still went all emotional and closed the site - you have to have thicker skin if you want to try to do some controversial things. because if you look as weak as she did here it will only increase otaku's pressure because they see her bend quite easily). Anyways, while the demographic changes, this particular change seems to be still rejected thus it would be advisable for author to try something less drastic and change it bit by bit, the particular twist in GE was too drastic I think. They key point of my comparison between shoujo and shounen was saying that they are both sexist in their way, because it seemed like typhonsentra wanted to stress how sexist the shounen is comapred to shoujo, which is what I am keen to disagree since they both have sexist issues of them, just different, but it does not really make one better than the other. In shoujo heroine has to be innocent (or else it causes the reaction from female readers - not as strong as shounen, but it still does). I think female innocence is stressed by both shounen and shoujo, the difference is the reaction towards the change... All and all, I think this should have been in a seinen magazine, because at least for now some tropes in the shounen manga are still a taboo and GE tried unsuccessfully pass through them and make itself original (for s shounen, because in seinen such development would not be original), but it only caused a lot of controversy which is no good specially knowing how emotionally soft this particular mangaka seems to be... |
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2009-12-28, 05:54 | Link #330 | ||||
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I don't know where you get she weak because she closed her blog. It was prudent to shut it down if it is becoming a problem with Otaku spamming it. Blog are not in anyway required and in fact I don't understand there purpose anyway other than to inspire more stalkers and put mundane and useless crap out about yourself. If she changes her story to appease these guys then I'd agree with you on her being weak. Quote:
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2009-12-28, 06:36 | Link #331 | |
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Last edited by Dark Mage; 2009-12-28 at 07:00. |
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2009-12-28, 06:38 | Link #332 | ||||
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I find my statement has more ground that the one that says it has the support from the community. Quote:
Controversy is not a bad thing per se (see Evangelion), but when it starts messing with authors live it is - Kannagi author was sick, but interesting enough the sickness hit her the most when she was put under the stress due to recent development. As you know our psychological state effects our physical one. If it makes such stress over you - then its not a good thing. And besides how would you determine if the changes GE would make are effected by the readers or not? She can't really undo the part the story that was presented... and you can always argue that the future story progression was planned rather than effected by the reactions of the readers. Like Ichigo for example? A lot of people say it was planned but the mangaka herself stated that she had no direction at all (in the 4th omake I think) and it seems like she was influenced by the popularity polls... Quote:
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As for this all issue... There is even a popular saying which probably explains the shounen and shoujo direction 'Every man wants to be the woman's first, while every woman want to be the man's last." And it does not come from manga. Manga just more crystallizes on this "woman's first" and "man's last", but this urge is not from the otaku at all (I remember this saying since it was used in one of Adair books that I recently read, but its used in lot of literature so I cannot say who was the first to say it). This desire seem to be much older, the problem is that manga and the otakus seem to be so focused on this that every diverge from it is taken with a lot of criticism. |
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2009-12-28, 08:40 | Link #333 | ||||||
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2009-12-31, 17:21 | Link #337 |
simp for Lyria
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side note: it kinda sucks when you have to avoid everyone's post because they may contain raw spoilers. It also sucks that I have to scower backpages to read the current trans chap posts. I'm not blaming you guys or anything, just felt the need to say that.
Anyway, ch 13.... that senpai def seems too suave for his feelings to actually be legitimate. I feel bad for Shou, since I know she will prob end up getting the short end of the stick. I do like Yuki better anyways, so I'm hoping that since Shou is at least temp out of the way for the moment, Yuki and Utsumi will strengthen their friendship more(a relationship too soon would be stupid). Utsumi seems to act more natural with Yuki anyway. |
2009-12-31, 20:51 | Link #340 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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well in this chapter what kind i say, it is horrible, Utsumi got his heart broken, i disappointed about his senpai shou, she doesnt make up her mind from the start,about which one did she like. I also think she will broke up soon with that guy, there are no way they can have a long relationship because that guy got dumb by his ex-girlfriend and just try to get someone as a replacement. I hope Utsumi should going out with yuki, she did so much for him, i think she like him too. but anyway this chapter kind disappointed, i really hate girl who doesnt make up their mind in the first place, and then make people suffer in the end.
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Tags |
being good sucks, drama, kento boss, romance, shoukento, shounen, slice of life, yukiumi |
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