Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series

[D2]

Originally Posted by Keroko

America attacks countries without valid reason for their own goals disrupting social order and causing huge casualties,

No! Don't you DARE question the decisions of the USA

LOL... I kid.

Anyway, about the Cradle Parking Ticket, how would the TSAB let the ship know? Leave a message on the ships comms? Have someone go up in space and write a sticky note? Hmm... I wonder if the TSAB has any spaceship towing services? Also, about the ship pimping, you think that people do stuff like space racing? Like, a bunch of kids meeting at some derelict solar system and racing decked out star cruisers!

Edit: WOOHOO! 2 page claims in one afternoon! How rad am I!?

[MeisterBabylon]

1) Say what?

2) I'm sure they have scows and tugboats since they have giant ships...

3) I don't see why not... But then again I'm not Tk1337.

[Dark Wing]

Well after reviewing chapter 9 of Vivid it seems that there are indeed civilian transport ships after all. This will change a lot of old assumptions on how the TSAB operates wouldn't it?

[MeisterBabylon]

Moot point me really. Never made any sense to ban civilian ships in the first place.

[Keroko]

Doesn't change anything for me. I always figured the TSAB to be more of a police-patrol presence rather than sole owners of dimensional transfer.

[Kaijo]

I tended to always assume there were civilian ships. Mostly transports, probably, but there will always be people who want to stowaway and sneak off world or something.

[ZeroXSEED]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

You would notice that when Yunno wanted to use Raising Heart in its standby gem form in Ep1, he had to hold onto it. That's a point in the direction that a device doesn't keep helping its mage in standby by default - thus, you'll need to apply counterweight to support your variant that RH is providing measurable assistance even when it is in Standby. And wouldn't it completely ruin the point of retracting RH into standby in Ep8 if RH can help out quite well in its Standby Position?

As for RH and Yunno, my bet is that the problem is a simple one of RH being a bit "too much device" for Yunno - in short, a quantity problem, not a quality one.

It's about QUALITY

Easiest analogy is that Yuuno hasn't much of Offensive ability, we can see Nanoha DID train with Raising Heart in standby mode, which isn't 'stop working' but 'reduced the workload'.

Instead of ENHANCING, Device LIMITING the usage of a mage's mana (StrikerS). In trades, they provides FASTER CAST, and FIRING CONTROL over the spell (also StrikerS, so far as I know about CROSS MIRAGE).

Hayate have a trouble to find a device that didn't BREAKS when she cast her spell, and ended with her old good Schwertkreuz that updated as 'version 8'
In short, it was the Mage's ability who may be too much for a device.

Of course, Cartridge system violates the limiting rule as far as we concerned. So far as gave the risk of damaging/ destroying Both Raising Heart and Bardiche without special reinforced frame.

Raising Heart having too much on OFFENSIVE factor, DAMN RIGHT however. And may be too much for Yuuno, I really agree on that matter.

So, in MY opinion, he may need more 'unconventional' device, as the staffs seen so far are put the OFFENSIVE FACTOR too much (Raising Heart, Bardiche, Durandal, Schwertkreuz, or even slightly-unique S2U).

Definitely NOT a staff.

EDIT:
OH and that's too long bordering off topic

Yuuno is a mere Civilian? DOHOHOH.
Infinity Library is an organization that handless AL information in Mid Childa, and we mean ALL information. From mere literature for (magical) grade schooler's homework to military information, everything stored there, of course with different treatment and level of freedom to access it.

This isn't our average school library folks.
And directly tied too TSAB's work.

And he's also an Archaeologist that deals with FREAKING LOST LOGIA sometimes, and we didn't talk about some random scientist smuggling these to Mid Childa.
He treats it right on the spot where it was founded, clearly works along with the Military for that matter.

Maybe, officially, he's a civilian.
And saying that civilian can't own a device = simply scrap, breaks, and burns ViVid manga to dust.

Except that I myself didn't took it as Canon in SOME PART, F***ING YUUNO DIDN'T SHOWN ON INFINITY LIBRARY?! WAIT A MINUTE! AND VIVIO DIDN'T SEND HIM A PICTURE, DESPITE HIS EFFORT TO HELP NANOHA RAISE HER?? Okay, good...now I'm off topic again

So, Yuuno can OWN a device, even if just a STORAGE Device, if
A. He wants it
B. He needs it

and Raising Heart fail on the second task (and he's the one who's fail to summon the device)

[Tabasco]

Between the off topic rants and the random shouting I have no earthly idea what you're trying to say here. Clarification?

[itanshi1]

Seems we are under the impression Yuuno's presence is inconsistent with the arching story's structure. Like he is anachronistic. He has no device and may or may not be allowed to have one despite given such a highly important position if not rank in the TSAB.

He's neither HAX nor Useful, so I guess this means he's a non entity at this point. Not something to be proud of. Still, this is much less a military decision as it is a author's decision, so yeah I'm not sure I understand where this topic is heading. Glad to help.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

On a very general level, humans made better and better mass-based weapons as they advanced. From rocks to bows to catapults to muskets to machine guns to missiles and bombs, etc. The key point in each being to have a better weapon than your opponent, or at least copy your opponent's weapon.

If we simplify the advancement to this level, it applies to the magical weapon spectrum at least as much as the mass weapon spectrum.

They aren't given the same standing, and you keep dodging the point of WHY the TSAB goes with magic instead of mass-based. Erio lays it out in the helicopter: because anyone can push a button and kill thousands of people with a dumb weapon. It's harder to track and regulate mass-based weapons, but it's easier to track and regulate mages. Also, magic has stun settings and are considerably more versatile. You can resolve incidents with a simple magic spell instead of spraying the area with bullets. Hostage situation? Knock out everyone instantly with magic and viola, no deaths.

One must remember the one time we actually saw a hostage situation, we saw the limitations of those "stun magic rounds". I won't deny the flexibility. On the other hand, magic also has extremely limited range and speed characteristics, so surely without that whole mass-weapon phobia a more proper military posture would have combined the two.

As for the whole push-button thing, see Arcenciel.

The book shouldn't even be mentioned because it's a lost logia

It does, however, end any doubt that magic is somehow intrinsically safer.

You almost have a point with the Arc, but it seemingly requires a mage at the helm to use, a charge time(uses magic), and has to be installed for a particular mission. In short, heavily regulated. The Bureau is real big on heavy regulation.

You are being really optimistic considering that all Lindy really did was turn a key - there's absolutely no evidence of a mage being required. Having to be loaded aboard is something similar to nukes. That it has a charge time is a technical limitation of the weapon and not a control.

What should freak you out is after all that phobia regarding any kind of mass-weapon, the looseness of the control (technical, procedural, and moral) involved for firing Arcenciel. No equivalent to a Permissive Action Link - once the weapon is onboard, the Captain gets to fire it at what is ultimately her discretion. That's actually less effective security on the thing than that nuclear torpedo on B-59 that day near Cuba. They aren't exactly feeling horribly sorry about firing it on Earth, or thinking very hard about ways to avoid it. Compared to the care we use for our modern day nuclear weapons, and compared to their paranoia over any form of mass weapon, "cavalier" is a complete understatement to how they treat magical WMD.

Yep, it can't happen; isn't it great? Magic is pretty nice like that, ain't it? In this universe, magic is capable of knocking someone out with little to no damage to them. Vivio got hit with 5 Starlight Breakers and has come up a healthy normal magical girl. =) Well, I suppose there could be brain damage, considering the befriending nature of Nanoha's attacks!

Don't forget how tough Vivio is supposed to be as the Saint Kaiser.

And the evidence for showing it's a valid argument rests with the entirety of Earth's history. Lots of guns, and even some missiles, which were developed for an army eventually found their way into the hands of people like criminals and terrorists. This is a fact. AK-47s and Stinger missiles are the most popular items for various reasons which I don't care to go into. And when the USSR dissolved, it lost track of a LOT of it's nuclear missiles and bombs. The US had to scramble to help Russia document and track all of it's stuff. Having one of the USSR's old bombs end up in the hands of terrorists is a very real possibility. As it is, nuclear secrets have leaked out to various nations already, the latest being Iran. Tell me how comfortable you are with Iran having the bomb.

You'll note that pistols, AK-47s and RPGs are a dime a dozen, but proliferation rapidly pilfers off after that. In the end, as far as can be told none of the bombs actually found their way to some terrorist, at least not in a usable state. A consideration that Erio does not consider is that real high-level mass weapons tend to be technically complex, so a single man will not be able to employ it. Pushing the button is only the last step of a complex technical preparation process.

Because said thieves/murderers/revolutionaries/etc. wouldn't be able to use them. To them, it's a hunk of metal. Even IF they have a mage, it's been shown that only Nanoha has been able to really handle it. In short, these are very specifically designed weapons that work with certain level mages... the type you aren't going to find much of in your group of criminals.

These AEC weapons are ultimately designed for mass production (to the point the prototype War Hammer is adult-sized), which means that in the end, what you say is supposed to not apply.

Source? Or is this Wild Mass Guessing? I'm going with the latter.

It is a logical consequence of what this weapon is doing, to create mass effects with magic - thus, all you should in theory see is a mass-based impact on target.

The issue with training is given as follows: In order for a mage to get stronger, they need a more powerful mage to train them. Since Aces are relatively rare, you end up with a general B and A ranked army. I'll try to dig out the manga page that explains this. It was also mentioned that there are perhaps only about 100 Aces in all of the TSAB combined (That is, people over A rank). And some like Lindy are working desk jobs.

IIRC, that was supposed to be ~100 in that special instructor Corps Nanoha is in.

[Kaijo]

Moving this discussion here from the manga thread. Discussions are centered around the intelligence of the TSAB in regards to magic vs. mass-based weapons.

Originally Posted by Sheba

Why do you seek to twist what I am trying to tell you?! I am telling you that the arm race cannot be simplified in a linear progression

Yes, it can, because it HAS happened. Look, I'm partially agreeing with you that part of it is situational, but the bottom line is that humanity HAS progressed to better and better weapons. It's a straight fact that each country wanted better weapons then their opponents, and made use of every technological advantage to get there. If you really don't see this, then come at me with a bow and arrow while I use a machine gun.

Here you got your tech tree wrong. I mean, man, anyone with a working brain can tell you why bows does not have the same tactical uses and applications as catapults and missiles.

Yes and no. The defense against bows was a high wall to keep people out. Catapults negated the advantage of high walls. Like I said, ever advancing war technology.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Given that they have (finally?) managed to make the whole technique work with fair reliability, the idea that making someone as a cyborg is unethical only if you have some kind of prejudice against them. In any case, when they are proven useful, many an ethic can be bent, which is probably Regius' ultimate goal.

Do you not see the ethical problems here? A cyborg is like Ix, a human made into a weapon with no thought to what they want. That's not something you can just force onto someone unless you are particularly sadistic. I mean, take a look at how Ix felt about the whole thing.

And there you go - they aren't even really making use of what they do have.

It's interesting that I have to make the proper counter-arguments. If anything, focus your energies on that little conundrum.

Actually, nuclear weapons are a good sign that when weapons destructive power exceeds a certain point, humanity is able to restrain itself. We've had some close calls, but in the end apparently we did not go over the edge.

It only takes one example to prove you wrong. Given the fact that we've had TWO incredibly close calls, I'd say you just got lucky. But luck runs out. The concept is called MAD, Mutually-Assured Destruction, and assumes rational players. North Korea, Iran, Al Quaida... these are not rational players. Furthermore, terrorists like Al Quaida have no nation state to target in return, so they could easily detonate a nuke in a New York and not care about the return, because they can simply disperse and hide.

MAD has begun to break down.

Or, ironically, it may be because Regius did not implement full-scale widespread CAMF training that things went well as well as they did (which really isn't too well). As we've seen ultimately in the show, while it seems possible to "fight" low-level AMF to some extent, if serious AMF came to pass, even the best trained CAMF mages ultimately get neutralized. If CAMF tactics start becoming obvious and widespread, then Scarlietti may well choose intensive development to bring up the power (arms race effect) before he makes a full-scale appearance ... what then?

The "serious AMF" you refer to is the ship cutting magical links, which it could only do so inside. Jail himself never had that ability. The best he could do were the limited AMF of the drones, and by the end of StrikerS, the red shirt army could still deal with that despite any lack of CAMF training.

No threat = no biggie.

So why is the near-complete banning of mass arms part of those that should be kept? You do realize that a ban is the direct opposite of a freedom, do you?

So you feel everyone should be free to own a nuclear weapon? Look, in any society, trade-offs have to be made between security and liberty. The type of "freedom" you propose where anyone can do whatever they want is also called "anarchy." If that's what you want, move to Somalia.

Actually, from what we've seen, the predominant element of a mage is his sheer talent. Without talent, even the best training can produce only limited results, which means when they come up against a talented mage (the kind with the potential to cause trouble, and thus, those that most likely will), they are basically slaughtered.

Wrong. Example: Teana. A "normal" mage who, thanks to training, has moved into AA rank. In other words, a normal mage became an ace thanks to training. That was her whole story arc in StrikerS.

Yes, but as the category (thus danger) of weapon goes up, it becomes less and less likely. Pistols are very common. A terrorist group may have AK-47s, RPGs, maybe even a mortar. But that's about the limit of it.

But those guns can do a lot of damage, or do I need to pull up a nice "yearly deaths by guns" graph for you? And you left off Stinger missiles, which are used to shoot down aircraft. Such people with such weapons are still managing to make themselves a decent threat in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The whole StrikerS scenario should have been a wakeup call, and it hardly takes a genius to think that AMF might be installable on a goddamned ship. Besides, it'll seem Huckebein has been doing what it is doing for a few years before we get to see them ... nope, no major response.

I've said this several times before, so you probably aren't reading posts. It was a wake-up call, and they DID start taking measures. Hence the new weapons. Perhaps you aren't exactly aware of the timeframe it takes to develop a new weapon from scratch, but the average is 5 to 10 years. And look, here we are in Force, 5-6 years later, and they have weapons now in the usable prototype stage.

And as Tk3997 tried to explain to you, most of the obvious causes that lead to the situation simply don't exist in the TSAB situation, so you can't just take Earth history with entire different circumstances and cut and paste onto the current TSABbie situation.

Human nature is human nature regardless; that's what allows us to watch these shows and identify with the characters; because they are human and not aliens. If you try to argue this, then you are basically saying, "well, um, we can take this and this from human nature and apply it the characters; but not that or that! Why? Because I said so, that's why!"

I suppose this is the propaganda the TSABbies may be feeding to the masses, but as the intelligentsia, we must remember how Belka and Al Hazred, both apparently heavily magical civilizations, trashed themselves, and while the United States (we might nitpick, but its flaws are hardly the thing likely to show up with a mere 24 hours of observation) is a pretty nice place despite having mass-weapons.

Wrong. Al Hazard was specifically said to have destroyed itself due to high technology. The Belkan Wars may have started magical, but they progressed to a lot of mass-based weapons that eventually rendered several planets either destroyed or uninhabitable.

And several out countries in the past were fairly nice places... until human nature led them to ruin. Just because it hasn't quite happened in the US yet, doesn't mean it won't. In fact, if you really look at the situation and believe the US is headed for a new revolution, it's already firmly on the path.

Further, you may note the strong possibility that Orussia is still in civil-war conditions simply because the TSABbies can't intervene in the mass-based melee without serious losses.

Wrong again. The TSAB is a police force for dealing with lost logia; it doesn't involve itself in the internal affairs of planets. If they really wanted to pacify Orussia, they could. A few Arc shots from orbit would seriously put things down. And magic being far superior to mass-based weapons, would mean mages could walk into the area, unleash a stun-nuke, then destroy the weapons one-by-one.

If they wanted to, the TSAB could deal with the situation easily. But they weren't founded for that purpose and thus practice non-intervention (except where lost logia could cause a dimensional disturbance).

Now, when we are done with propaganda, let's remember that in the Nanoverse, Japan was [i]this/i] close to being Arced, thanks to the callousness, incompetence of TSABbies combined with hopelessly loose control procedures. In comparison, our nuclear control procedures and general attitude to using them are leaktight.

But Japan wasn't arc'ed, because magic is more versatile. If all they had were mass-based weapons, then Japan would have been nuked to deal with the out-of-control book. So, speaking as a TSAB person, "Why should I develop and use mass-based weapons when Magic solves my problems better?"

This is the bottom point to all of this, and if you read nothing else, read this:

For the Bureau, magic is far better than mass-based weapons based on every conceivable angle. The only argument that could be made, would be AMF (debatable, but the Bureau instituted counter-measures in training and prototype weapons anyway, a smart move), and complete magic nullification like the Huckbein. And for that, they are using their new weapons. The ONLY additional point that could be made, is why they aren't bringing the cyborgs in. No other argument holds any weight.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

If we simplify the advancement to this level, it applies to the magical weapon spectrum at least as much as the mass weapon spectrum.

Nope. Because you keep forgetting that one is a dumb weapon that can be mass-produced, and one relies on the power of an individual. They are NOT alike in that manner. The point you keep ignoring is that the individual is easier to regulate, track, and license. Much easier than trying to track billions of guns.

It does, however, end any doubt that magic is somehow intrinsically safer.

Look, you're missing the point. No one is saying that magic can't be as dangerous as a mass-based weapon. What we're saying is that a mass-based weapon CANNOT be as safe as magic. With magic, you have a choice. With a gun, you do not. And there really isn't any way you can get around this point.

You are being really optimistic considering that all Lindy really did was turn a key - there's absolutely no evidence of a mage being required. Having to be loaded aboard is something similar to nukes. That it has a charge time is a technical limitation of the weapon and not a control.

Considering the weapon is powered by magic, it's a safe bet that Lindy's device is the Arthra, but that she requires her crew to charge the weapon before she can fire it. So, mage at the helm.

Don't forget how tough Vivio is supposed to be as the Saint Kaiser.

Fate was hit with a Starlight Breaker, and came out of it okay. Arguably BETTER afterward considering she joined up with Nanoha. The whole befriending thing in action. :P And Teana was shot twice in succession that knocked her out, and she came out of it fine. Well, she had her breakdown, but became a better person, heh. If anything, you'd best be advised to abandon this argument, since far from being harmful, it's been shown that people get BETTER when hit by stun magic!. :P

You'll note that pistols, AK-47s and RPGs are a dime a dozen, but proliferation rapidly pilfers off after that. In the end, as far as can be told none of the bombs actually found their way to some terrorist, at least not in a usable state. A consideration that Erio does not consider is that real high-level mass weapons tend to be technically complex, so a single man will not be able to employ it. Pushing the button is only the last step of a complex technical preparation process.

But it's made easier when, after it's made, it's given to one person to plant and push. You know, sorta like how the USSR made thousands of nukes, quite a few of which have gone missing. The technical prep has been done, and who knows who has their hands on one now, or what they plan to do with it? And you also ignored the technical expertise that can be passed around to build one's own, like Iran and North Korea are doing. At this point, Iran could make some and secretly hand one off to a terrorist group to detonate elsewhere.

Dumb weapons can be used by anyone. Magic weapons cannot.

[quote[These AEC weapons are ultimately designed for mass production (to the point the prototype War Hammer is adult-sized), which means that in the end, what you say is supposed to not apply.[/quote]

Mass production to mages which is what you keep forgetting.

IIRC, that was supposed to be ~100 in that special instructor Corps Nanoha is in.

Nope, over all. There about 100 aces overall, and only a handful of those become Ace of Aces (Nanoha's, Fate's level).

[PhoenixFlare]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Even in peace times, the advancement of weaponry continues. It's 1980, the cold war is winding down, and we have peace... and the airforce is drawing up plans for the F-22 Raptor. 1991, we still have peace, and the Raptor program is still continuing with four prototypes. Various laser programs are beginning to show fruit. Rail guns have moved from theoretical to testing of prototypes. The US has the strongest army in the world, and we are still making new weapons ALL THE TIME.

Your point being?

If you meant to say that having peace means no weapons are allowed to be developed and researched, then I'd have to say that is a disconnect from reality.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And you completely missed the point with a false analogy. We're talking weapons here, not the reproductive system.

It is only a false analogy if you can't correlate the two ideas together.

You said that guns led to nuclear weapons. A leads to B.

I said that understanding human reproductive system led to increased rapes, premarital sex, and other things that are solely not related to making progenies. A leads to B.

What did we reach here? You ban your gun and I ban my understanding of the human reproduction, and we'll see if both will reach the conclusion we so desire: no nuclear weapon of your side and no rapes/premarital sex on my side. Hopefully, it works out best for the both of us.

You'll find that the workings of the world are not so simplistic.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Seriously? Are you trying to say that a pebble is just as dangerous as a machine gun? I really don't know how to respond to that. Personally, I'd rather my opponents be armed with pebbles than machine guns, but you apparently feel there is no difference. Tell ya what; we'll fight. You with a pebble, and me with a machine gun. Who do you think is going to win?

Ah, but I never do say that a pebble is just as dangerous as a machine gun, only that it can kill just as a machine gun could. Granted, the death toll pales very much in comparison, it is still a viable tool when everything else is banned. Necessity is the mother of invention.

I don't see why you just want to point this out though, since my argument was that even if you banned gun ownership, anyone who really, really wants to kill somebody has many other substitutes to choose from, a pebble included. You may as well ban someone from using his fingers.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

They aren't given the same standing, and you keep dodging the point of WHY the TSAB goes with magic instead of mass-based. Erio lays it out in the helicopter: because anyone can push a button and kill thousands of people with a dumb weapon. It's harder to track and regulate mass-based weapons, but it's easier to track and regulate mages. Also, magic has stun settings and are considerably more versatile. You can resolve incidents with a simple magic spell instead of spraying the area with bullets.

I never dodged the point of why TSAB goes magic in the first place. I am pointing out that both mass- AND magic-based weapons are equally dangerous.

And really now, I need to check the last time I heard police/army/SWAT teams "spraying the area with bullets" just so to arrest criminals. If they attest to this, then perhaps they will want to learn a thing or two from you or Nanohaverse.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Hostage situation? Knock out everyone instantly with magic and viola, no deaths.

The last time a hostage was fired with magic, she lost her sight.

Also, let's pursue this question: Why has Hayate not taken to herself to launch salvos of Hraesvelgr or Diabolic Emission into the heart of Cranagan during the Numbers' infiltration in StrikerS? Surely, with this much magical power, she can save thousands of lives (and poor Forwards' tears and blood) with a single stroke. There won't be deaths, so why worry?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Nothing is safe, but it's considerably safer than mass-based weapons in general. You're overlooking the obvious stun setting and versatility of magic to resolve an incident without serious harm or bloodshed. Yes, a sword can cut, but it doesn't have to. That means you still have the option to go that route if you need to. With a gun, you don't have a choice; you only have one setting: kill.

I would actually appreciate a helpful link to the information on this sword that doesn't cut. Since the only known sword-wielders right now are Signum, Cyphia (don't know what Dividers are classified as), and Zest (to a certain extent), and none of their swords obviously do not cut, I think this does answer the question, no?

The only stun setting for magical attacks so far seems limited to bombardment/shooting type attacks, unless there are others I'm not aware of.

Oh, I do have many settings for a gun: I can shoot his knees so that he cannot escape, I can shoot his arm so that he releases his weapon/hostage, I can target his exposed stomach and injure but not kill, I can even throw the gun at him and hope it knocks him unconscious.

Yes, too much drama, I know, but the obvious "kill" setting of a gun need not be kill. There will be a tad more blood than a magical attack, certainly, but we're not terribly concerned about that, are we?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

The book shouldn't even be mentioned because it's a lost logia and NOT something the Bureau would be using. You almost have a point with the Arc, but it seemingly requires a mage at the helm to use, a charge time(uses magic), and has to be installed for a particular mission. In short, heavily regulated. The Bureau is real big on heavy regulation.

Being a Lost Logia does not make it any less magical in nature.

So is nuclear weapon heavily regulated, but somehow, people just happen to find them lying around, don't they?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Yep, it can't happen; isn't it great? Magic is pretty nice like that, ain't it? In this universe, magic is capable of knocking someone out with little to no damage to them. Vivio got hit with 5 Starlight Breakers and has come up a healthy normal magical girl. =) Well, I suppose there could be brain damage, considering the befriending nature of Nanoha's attacks!

Or she's probably just protected by her Saint King's Armor, but we won't know that since canon has long gone past StrikerS.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Slippery slope works when you can show that A leads to B which leads to C which leads to D. So someone is justified in saying that if we do A, then we'll end up with D. If you can show the chain of events, and show that they have happened before, then it is a valid argument, and your attempt to call a fallacy on it *doesn't* work.

And the evidence for showing it's a valid argument rests with the entirety of Earth's history. Lots of guns, and even some missiles, which were developed for an army eventually found their way into the hands of people like criminals and terrorists. This is a fact. AK-47s and Stinger missiles are the most popular items for various reasons which I don't care to go into. And when the USSR dissolved, it lost track of a LOT of it's nuclear missiles and bombs. The US had to scramble to help Russia document and track all of it's stuff. Having one of the USSR's old bombs end up in the hands of terrorists is a very real possibility. As it is, nuclear secrets have leaked out to various nations already, the latest being Iran. Tell me how comfortable you are with Iran having the bomb.

The linearity at which you presents the idea of your argument was calling to be considered a slippery slope since you never considered the possibility of a middle ground or alternative events.

In any case, I do agree that men who forget history may be doomed to repeat them, but by fearing to tread a line you've trodden before, you're also not actually making a progress in combating it.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Because said thieves/murderers/revolutionaries/etc. wouldn't be able to use them. To them, it's a hunk of metal. Even IF they have a mage, it's been shown that only Nanoha has been able to really handle it. In short, these are very specifically designed weapons that work with certain level mages... the type you aren't going to find much of in your group of criminals.

On weapons that can run on batteries? That's like saying that our average terrorists are so stupid they cannot even operate a flashlight.

And most antagonists in the series have so far equaled, even exceeded, Nanoha and her company in terms of "certain level", and they can certainly work AEC without much fuss. Try asking Tsuzuki to toss Cyphia one and see what happens.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It can't.

And begging the question, why not?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Source? Or is this Wild Mass Guessing? I'm going with the latter.

Unless you miss the word "presumably" in the quoted sentence, you already know what your answer is. Singling the sentence out for snide counter does work wonder, I guess.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Then you don't understand the reasons for the founding principles, the political situation, nor the reality of magic in this universe.

Or you don't understand why it is necessary to abandon ideals for something more pragmatic. I suppose it is not cruel to subject your people to the gates of the underworld just so you can say, "Hey, I did not break the rule!"

Originally Posted by Kaijo

150 years, actually. Well, 156 as of Force. It was formed in 75 BC to begin ridding the universe of mass-based weapons and dealing with lost logia, as well as wrapping up the remaining cinders of war. By the year 0000, it had pretty much succeeded, and the next 75 years were relatively peaceful.

The issue with training is given as follows: In order for a mage to get stronger, they need a more powerful mage to train them. Since Aces are relatively rare, you end up with a general B and A ranked army. I'll try to dig out the manga page that explains this. It was also mentioned that there are perhaps only about 100 Aces in all of the TSAB combined (That is, people over A rank). And some like Lindy are working desk jobs.

I am also reminded that you don't need Aces as trainers to be decent mages.

Faan Corrado (I thank Estavali for supplying the name) is a prime example of a non-Ace who beat not one, but two Aces who outclassed her in level in a mock battle.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

False Analogy. China has 1 billion+ people. The bureau does not have 1 billion+ mages. This is wild mass guessing on my part, but I'd say the Bureau doesn't have much more than 100,000 personnel, and that includes non-mage people like Amy and Regius. And of those, probably only a few thousand are A rank or greater. It's much easier to regular a few thousand mages, then it is to regulate billions of dumb handguns, especially when you give the mages large incentives to play nice with the system. Someone else can probably dig up more realistic numbers.

They have only a sum of 100,000 personnel to hold the Administrated Worlds in check across the Dimensional Sea together? Right.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

No. And it doesn't seem like you can really tell the difference between the AEC's and a dumb hand gun. I hate to explain it again, but a dumb handgun can be used by anyone. The AEC's have been shown to only work for mages. If I suddenly find myself in possession of Nanoha's Strike Cannon, I won't be able to do much with it. I suppose I try to use it like a lance or big sword and hit you with it, but I'm sure you won't exactly feel threatened because I don't have magic.

Did the idea of a mass-manufactured batteries/converters/amplifiers not occur to you, ever?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

"Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it."

Sometimes I wonder why there are those who so easily forget this simple saying. Although this might be going a bit off topic, the US is still a threat. Within the last 10 years, we've already invaded two separate nations, and made saber-rattling noises about possibly invading a third or fourth. The situation in the US is such that freedoms and founding principles are slowly being eroded, so I can see us invading other countries. Perhaps yours will be next? We can't fight the world, but we can use pre-texts and pre-emptive actions to do so when we feel like it.

Although partially we're sometimes content to economically conquer your nation, and force your governments to sign treaties which favor us. Witness the current ACTA talks where the US is basically forcing other countries to agree to draconian laws that take away your rights and civil liberties.

So, we might not need to invade you, if we can convert you to a nice vassal state over the course of a few years.

Did we really forget, or perhaps you just felt the need to sound poetic?

Very unfortunately, vassalage has also not seen daylight in the country, at least as far as I know of. It may or may not happen in the future, but that's a story for another time. But, even the astute leader of the United States should know that fighting a war has its own repercussions and tolls, and I don't think the Americans are that naive to dive headlong into another one for a long time.

And as technologically backwater as we are, trying to bear the full force of your might on us can be assuredly met in kind, even if the result heavily favors you.

[Kaijo]

Look, Phoenix, I tried to type up a response, but a lot of your analogies are just plain silly(comparing guns to pebbles and sex? Seriously?), and I've long lost sight of what you're trying to prove. Plus, these things are getting too long, so I'll just sum things up:

The TSAB is actually fairly smart for an organization, dedicated to maintain peace through magic, which has actually worked out quite well for them. Mass-based weapons, being less-versatile and only have one setting (kill), aren't needed and aren't worth the cost. They've been able to deal with everything just fine so far.

And the one time they come up against something they didn't expect, they have a normal response time in developing counter-measures for the future.

In short, business as normal.

[Nya~n]

i actually think that PF makes perfect sense. But hey, maybe that's just me. Or maybe that's just you. Who knows?

[Sheba]

I don't see how could PF's post fly over one's head, unless one have the attention span of a Michael Bay's movie watcher. Or did you just say that to throw his post aside with the efforts he put in it like toilet paper?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I don't see how could PF's post fly over one's head, unless one have the attention span of a Michael Bay's movie watcher. Or did you just say that to throw his post aside with the efforts he put in it like toilet paper?

Well, you could have offered an explanation, but it was easier to toss an ad hominem, eh?

Thank you for your useful contribution.

But I can mark you down as someone who thinks a gun is both a pebble and sex, then? I have an easy enough time telling them apart, but I can recognize others might be a bit more confused.

Edit to add: And it was also partially because the main point had drifted, so I was trying to get it back on track.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Well, you could have offered an explanation, but it was easier to toss an ad hominem, eh?

Thank you for your useful contribution.

PF have mostly turned against you your constant resort to shortcuts, straw man and appeal to ridicule, yours that could be summed up as "If we allowed guns in the TSAB, we would soon have nukes all over the place."

Which is not true.

What Tk have tried to convey all along is that ethics and tradition be damned but at least guns would give even the lowest grunts a possibility to bite back even with a minimum training.

The only way I could rationalize why TSAB is so relunctant to use mass-based weapons is bad writing coming from silly conventions inheritated from giant robot genre, which in turn have likely spawned from a nostalgia for "honorable" samurai warfare where conflicts were supposedly solved with a duel between two champions. Which may appear cool to the casual people but appear downright silly the instant StrikerS introduced more paramilitary elements.

Unless the only reason they did it is fanservice (hey let's see our ladies in fancy military uniforms!!).

[itanshi1]

I don't understand the problem here. I thought my post handled it pretty well. Japan has no guns and functions decently despite it. So, too, does the TSAB. The series is written for the Japanese audience in a realm they can relate to.

Whose to say 'dumb' weapons are effective against magic? The best prohibition is obsolescence.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sheba

PF have mostly turned against you your constant resort to shortcuts, straw man and appeal to ridicule, yours that could be summed up as "If we allowed guns in the TSAB, we would soon have nukes all over the place."

Sheba, true or false: The state of mass-based weapons on Earth have advanced over the ages and become more and more destructive.

Answer that simple question with a true or false.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Sheba, true or false: The state of mass-based weapons on Earth have advanced over the ages and become more and more destructive.

Answer that simple question with a true or false.

True or False: has the series shown that magic is as destructive as mass-based weaponry? Certainly, they do not have nuclear devices (that we know of), but what we have seen is certainly on par, if not greater than Terran weapons.

Starlight Breaker ruins shit.
Magic ruins shit. (Ancient Belka and Al-Hazred). So do grenades, guns, and bombs. To state that magic is any less destructive is to turn a blind eye. Not only that, ONE PERSON can do all that. On Earth, it requires many people.