[Manga] How did Itachi kill the Uchiha clan?

[MobiuS]

Its very simple to detemine there was a ton of sharingan users.

Kakshi Gaiden.
Obito.

Kakashi's comment to Obito was that he's an Uchiha failure ... he does not have sharingan at that age. Even if we assume only 30% of Uchihas above Obito's age had Sharingan, thats still 1/3 of all the fighting age Uchihas had it.

Im not going to discount or decompile the Uchiha massacre however. Im just taking it as one of our first indicators that Kish was a terrible writer and this was the first clue. 1 sharingan amongst possible hundreds and he came out without a scratch or an alarm being set off at least once.

We'll never see the massacre or any other cool scenes. Because animating them will just magnify plotholes even more, or force Kish to give more abilities to the sharingan on the fly.

Take for example, Kakashi Gaiden.

- How did Rin transfer the eye?
- If Rin could do that, why can't Kabuto get a dead Uchiha and steal the eye for Orochimaru? He's a medical ninja and was cool with Konoha. His dad was in a place of authority. All he needs to do is steal two eyes from a corpse and then xfer it anytime Oro needs a new body.
- What happened to Rin?
- If people killed some Uchihas during the war (Gaara's grandmother confirmed such) and we know people take ninja corpses to steal secrets (hence the cleanup team like Haku's)... then why in the hell didn't someone take an Uchiha corpse and steal a sharingan for their side?

o___o

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Yogi

Uh . . . yeah. 100x if not suppressed, 2x if suppressed, and Naruto can do 1,000 when suppressed. How does that contradict what I was saying?

"Yamato was actively suppressing Kyuubi and Naruto was stated to be making 1,000 KB."
Yamato was actively not suppressing the Kyubi, he was controling it so Naruto could use the Kyubi's chakra without being driven mad. We don't know how many KB Naruto can make when the Kyubi is completely suppressed.
On a related note I have heard that Kishimoto changed the x2 Kakashi to a x4 in the tankubon version but since I didn't buy it I can't check it myself.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by MobiuS

Its very simple to detemine there was a ton of sharingan users.

Kakshi Gaiden.
Obito.

Kakashi's comment to Obito was that he's an Uchiha failure ... he does not have sharingan at that age. Even if we assume only 30% of Uchihas above Obito's age had Sharingan, thats still 1/3 of all the fighting age Uchihas had it.

Im not going to discount or decompile the Uchiha massacre however. Im just taking it as one of our first indicators that Kish was a terrible writer and this was
the first clue. 1 sharingan amongst possible hundreds and he came out without a scratch or an alarm being set off at least once.

We'll never see the massacre or any other cool scenes. Because animating them will just magnify plotholes even more, or force Kish to give more abilities to the sharingan on the fly.

Take for example, Kakashi Gaiden.

- How did Rin transfer the eye?

She was a medic nin. She used a medical jutsu. The process of the jutsu doesn't need to be explained.

- If Rin could do that, why can't Kabuto get a dead Uchiha and steal the eye for Orochimaru? He's a medical ninja and was cool with Konoha. His dad was in a place of authority. All he needs to do is steal two eyes from a corpse and then xfer it anytime Oro needs a new body.

You need an Uchiha body to most effectively use Sharingan. If Oro had Uchiha eyes transplanted into his body he wouldn't be able to deactivate the Sharingan and it would constantly drain his chakra, just like Kakashi's Sharingan drains chakra when he has it exposed.

- What happened to Rin?

She's dead. Kakashi stated that all the people he ever cared about are dead so we can assume Rin died somehow. How she died isn't important to the plot. There's no reason to go into detail about it.

- If people killed some Uchihas during the war (Gaara's grandmother confirmed such) and we know people take ninja corpses to steal secrets (hence the cleanup team like Haku's)... then why in the hell didn't someone take an Uchiha corpse and steal a sharingan for their side?

o___o

It's not as simple as stealing a body and then being able to produce an army of Sharingan users. Reproducing a bloodline is a complicated business. Oro tried splicing the 1st Hokage's bloodline into 60 test subjects and Yamato was the only success. And I doubt most villages even have access to the resources that Oro used to accomplish that. For most, the concept of stealing bodies to learn the secrets of bloodlines probably runs on the principle that if you know exactly how a bloodline works then you can better come up with a way to defeat it. But a bloodline like the Sharingan might not have any major weaknesses to exploit, so even if a body was stolen, nothing came of it.

[Hunter]

On top of that Obito was alive and was activating his Sharingan when Rin transplanted it to Kakashi. Stealing a Uchiha's corpse would probably be useless since the Sharingan wouldn't be activated.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Hunter

"Yamato was actively suppressing Kyuubi and Naruto was stated to be making 1,000 KB."
Yamato was actively not suppressing the Kyubi, he was controling it so Naruto could use the Kyubi's chakra without being driven mad. We don't know how many KB Naruto can make when the Kyubi is completely suppressed.
On a related note I have heard that Kishimoto changed the x2 Kakashi to a x4 in the tankubon version but since I didn't buy it I can't check it myself.

Where does it say that? All translations I have say that Yamato was suppressing Kyuubi.

[Goshin]

Originally Posted by MobiuS

Take for example, Kakashi Gaiden.

- How did Rin transfer the eye?
- If Rin could do that, why can't Kabuto get a dead Uchiha and steal the eye for Orochimaru? He's a medical ninja and was cool with Konoha. His dad was in a place of authority. All he needs to do is steal two eyes from a corpse and then xfer it anytime Oro needs a new body.
- What happened to Rin?
- If people killed some Uchihas during the war (Gaara's grandmother confirmed such) and we know people take ninja corpses to steal secrets (hence the cleanup team like Haku's)... then why in the hell didn't someone take an Uchiha corpse and steal a sharingan for their side?

o___o

I think it is because obito willfully gave the sharingran to kakashi, that is why he was able to use it. if you believe in spirits and stuff like that it may be that obitos spirit is in the eye and he activates it for kakashi. "I will become you eye" or something like that

I am preety sure that soem uchihas have died in battle and other villages if they have half a brain would have tried to steal the eye's before hunter nins come. if they got a sharingrean eye before and it didn't work it is becasue the eye wasn;'t given willfully to them.
that is just what i think of course

I don' think that kabuto was orochimaru slave before the uchiha massacre. he seems kind of young.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Yogi

Yamato was actively suppressing Kyuubi and Naruto was stated to be making 1,000 KB. If you cannot understand simple math, please follow through on your promise and don't respond.

Ehhh? as Hunter said, Yamato was Keeping Kyuby at bay, but he was actually using Kyuby chakra for the 1000 KB.

The first time Naruto summoned Kyuubi, both Kakashi and Zabuza said that the power level was slightly greater than their opponents. That means that up until that point, Naruto had been operating at a much lower power level. It was still enough to summon legions of Kage Bunshin to kick Mizuki's ass (and get slaughtered against Zabuza).

First of, don't try to make up lines that haven't been said in the Manga, Neither kakshi nor zabuza commented that the power level was slightly greater than their opponent, zabuza words were: "What this Chakra? Something is not Right..Kakshi's? No, is to big to be his." you can find that at the very beginning of volume 4.

and Mizuki got owned by a 1,000 Kage Bushin because he was that weak, unlike for example Kimi who defeated 1,000 without a scratch, while the KB power could had been different, here is more a question on how good is the opponent facing the KB.

Sandaime can use two Kage Bunshin, after he's been through the wringer. Kakashi gets exhausted from using MS, but he can do a single Kage Bunshin and not even feel it. Naruto with the Five Point Seal on him did four with ease. Which universe are you in which Itachi is even slightly inconvenienced by two.

Sandaime is a Hokage with a vast stamina, at that doesn't take away the fact that he only made 2.

And how many time have you seen kakshi using MS + a Kage Bushin? Never, So yeah Kakshi can make a KB without feeling much, that doesn't mean that he could make 12 of those and then be good enough to do a MS.

Again when Naruto got sealed He could do 4 because he still had a stamina way bigger than any normal Shinoby. whereas your implication is not saying that Itachi could make more than 2, but dozens of those + MS, I would ask better, what Manga are you reading?

Prove that every single Uchiha who could fight, did in fact stand their ground and fight.You can't. In fact, with such a large group the possibility that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them will behave as expected approaches nil.

Thats really a lame claim, Prove to me that some Uchihas that could fight decided to look for outside help, instead of fighting and thus trying to defend those who could not fight.

Both of us are stating merely our opinion, and as I said I find it really unlikely those uchiha that could fight decided not to fight against Itachi, given the Uchiha were suppose to be the Help.

I never said it couldn't be done, I just said it would use too much Chakra to be useful. The reason I suggested it was because it was a possibility, though an extremely unlikely one. Also, as a preemptive strike against Itachi fanboys.

Yes you did said it couldn't be done, You said that only Genjuts that could work against a Shairngan is Tsukijoumy, and I really didn't understand as a "Preemptive strike against a Itachi fanboys".

And I found it funny, you are claiming Itachi sould have Chakra to do Dozens of KB and MS, but not so to do more than 3 Genjutsus to work against Sharingan users?

Unfortunately, you're lying. He used three MS Jutsus, not one.

Unfortunately you have to read the Manga, it was stated int eh manga that Itachi was weary after he used the MS against Kakashi.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Ehhh? as Hunter said, Yamato was Keeping Kyuby at bay, but he was actually using Kyuby chakra for the 1000 KB.

Once again, where was this stated?

Originally Posted by Rurik

First of, don't try to make up lines that haven't been said in the Manga, Neither kakshi nor zabuza commented that the power level was slightly greater than their opponent, zabuza words were: "What this Chakra? Something is not Right..Kakshi's? No, is to big to be his." you can find that at the very beginning of volume 4.

Exactly. It was greater than Kakashi/Zabuza, but low enough that they briefly mistook it for Kakashi/Zabuza when they first felt it. Hence, slightly greater.

Originally Posted by Rurik

and Mizuki got owned by a 1,000 Kage Bushin because he was that weak

Red herring. The point was that even the weakest form of Naruto was able to create that many.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Sandaime is a Hokage with a vast stamina, at that doesn't take away the fact that he only made 2.

Actually, it was stated that his stamina was nowhere near what it used to be. Plus, he had just been throwing around major jutsu and had done a boss summon. Plus we're comparing it to Itachi, who should have more chakra than that.

Originally Posted by Rurik

And how many time have you seen kakshi using MS + a Kage Bushin? Never, So yeah Kakshi can make a KB without feeling much, that doesn't mean that he could make 12 of those and then be good enough to do a MS.

Missing the point. The point is that KB uses drastically less chakra than MS does. You're making it like the KB takes so much chakra that it's on the level of MS techniques.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Again when Naruto got sealed He could do 4 because he still had a stamina way bigger than any normal Shinoby.

Way bigger than normal Shinobi? As a Genin? Even if that's true Itachi isn't exactly normal.

Originally Posted by Rurik

whereas your implication is not saying that Itachi could make more than 2, but dozens of those + MS, I would ask better, what Manga are you reading?

You said Itachi couldn't do two. Now that I've corrected you, proceed to whine with your tail between your legs.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Thats really a lame claim, Prove to me that some Uchihas that could fight decided to look for outside help, instead of fighting and thus trying to defend those who could not fight.

Both of us are stating merely our opinion, and as I said I find it really unlikely those uchiha that could fight decided not to fight against Itachi, given the Uchiha were suppose to be the Help.

In order for the plan to work, every single combat-capable Uchiha would have to stand and fight. If each Uchiha had a 95% chance of fighting, and there were only 40 who might have been able to run away, the possibility that ALL 40 would fight is .95^40 = .1285. If you jack up the fight percentage to 99%, then the possibility of all of them fighting is .6690. This isn't including all the non-combatants who would also be running away as fast as possible. With Kage Bunshin, or even some other type of Bunshin surrounding the area, Itachi wouldn't need to worry about people escaping.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Yes you did said it couldn't be done, You said that only Genjuts that could work against a Shairngan is Tsukijoumy, and I really didn't understand as a "Preemptive strike against a Itachi fanboys".

I said that Tsukiyomi is the only one we've seen, though Itachi implied there could be others that work, and tried to use one himself against Kakashi. As for the fanboys, claiming that because MS would work against the Sharingan all of Itachi's Genjutsus will work is something I can easily imagine them saying.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Unfortunately you have to read the Manga, it was stated int eh manga that Itachi was weary after he used the MS against Kakashi.

So? He still fired off two MS jutsus after that before he was out of power.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Yogi

Where does it say that? All translations I have say that Yamato was suppressing Kyuubi.

All translation are actually stating otherwise. Only one early translation didn't because the translator didn't see the negation part of the sentence.
I have also heard off one scanlation team who deliberately changed the translation they used to stick with their own view though.
But I doubt you found scanlations saying Yamato was suppressing and not controling the Kyubi's chakra since every single translator have translated the line as controling.

The most obvious moment in the manga where it is stated is chapter 315 where Kakashi and Yamato explain why Naruto is the only person ables to do this training because with the Kyubi's chakra non suppressed he has 100 fold more chakra than Kakashi.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Yogi

Once again, where was this stated?

Well, I suggest you read the manga more carefully to see where it was stated.

Exactly. It was greater than Kakashi/Zabuza, but low enough that they briefly mistook it for Kakashi/Zabuza when they first felt it. Hence, slightly greater.

He didn’t mistook it for Kakshi, he asked from whom it was because he had no idea where it was coming from, so no nobody implied it was slightly greater. But he did Implied it was too big for Kakashi.

Red herring. The point was that even the weakest form of Naruto was able to create that many.

But still the weakest form of Naruto is stil, superior than normal Shinoby.

Actually, it was stated that his stamina was nowhere near what it used to be. Plus, he had just been throwing around major jutsu and had done a boss summon. Plus we're comparing it to Itachi, who should have more chakra than that.

Yes he wasn’t as like he was before, howveer he was still strong enough to leave the ANBU in awed and still be the strongest Shinoby in Konoha. And I doubt Itachi had more Chakra than Sandaime, but that’s not the point, the point is, Doing more than 2 kage Bushin and then the MS.

Missing the point. The point is that KB uses drastically less chakra than MS does. You're making it like the KB takes so much chakra that it's on the level of MS techniques.

Im not missing the point, but I guess you are missing it, the point is not that Itachi could not make 4 or 5 Kage Bushin and Fight with them, the point is Itachi doing 4 or 5 Kage Bushin that could fight and on top of that doing a MS Jutsu, and more with an age where he should had less chakra than when he fought against kakshi.

Way bigger than normal Shinobi? As a Genin? Even if that's true Itachi isn't exactly normal.

No, As In any Normal Shinoby, and Itachi isn’t normal not because his Chakra, but because his insane Genius ability, Been strong doesn’t mean you need a chakra pool like a Sannin. Kisame should have a bigger Chakra pool than Itachi, yet Itachi is stronger than Him.

You said Itachi couldn't do two. Now that I've corrected you, proceed to whine with your tail between your legs.

Really? I get the impression you are just not reading my posts:

Originally Posted by Rurik

But how many functional Kage Bushin could Itachi do(having in mind he used MS)? At best 2 i'll say, And that number it is still low against a Clan.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Personally I don’t think he did used Kage Bushin, because more than 2 would have been to much for him to do a MS later and on top of that fight against shinoby.

Originally Posted by Rurik

yeah but not by doing something as unrealistic] as doing more than 2 Kage Bushin and on top of that a MS jutsu, whereas 5 Years later with One Kage Bushn some 4 Jutsu and MS he was weary.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Because the need of a Kage BUshin to kill of his clan wasn't even needed? Because Using more than 2 Kage Bushin can prove too draining for him? …… That doesn't take away the fact that Itachi already showed you that using a MS Jutsu + one Kage Bushin and some 4 Jutsu drained him a good deal, let me add, a Kage Bsuhin that was not a fighting Kage Bushin to begin with.

So yeah, Basically the Manga is slapping you in the face showing you Itachi can only make around 2 Kage Bsuhin when he plans to use MS.

In order words, I never had said Itachi could not do 2.

In order for the plan to work, every single combat-capable Uchiha would have to stand and fight. If each Uchiha had a 95% chance of fighting, and there were only 40 who might have been able to run away, the possibility that ALL 40 would fight is .95^40 = .1285. If you jack up the fight percentage to 99%, then the possibility of all of them fighting is .6690. This isn't including all the non-combatants who would also be running away as fast as possible.

Ok, when you make up numbers, your calculation seems nice, whereas your calculation doesn’t take in account Itahchi’s speed, something like, Uchihas had only 40 Shinobies tha coul fight, It takes Itchi 1 seconds to Kill an Uchiha (that’s a fact), In order to Kill them all it would take him 40 second, if some Uchihas plans to escape, they will need around 1 minute to find help, whereas in order to reach the next help outside the clan location was located at 5 minutes from their current position.

So Yeah your numbers felt short if you decide to make what you want.

With Kage Bunshin, or even some other type of Bunshin surrounding the area, Itachi wouldn't need to worry about people escaping.

As I said maybe he didn’t need to worry because he was fast enough to catch anyone who tried to do so, or even fast enough to anyone to react, we are talking about a Shinoby that in a second had 3 Jounin with Sharingan in their feet.

I said that Tsukiyomi is the only one we've seen, though Itachi implied there could be others that work, and tried to use one himself against Kakashi. As for the fanboys, claiming that because MS would work against the Sharingan all of Itachi's Genjutsus will work is something I can easily imagine them saying.

Well, He did in fact do a genjutsu on Kakshi, so I guess Itachi knows he had a normal Genjuts that could work against a Shairngan user, I choose that option as genjutsu because it was the one I liked better than the other 2 options you gave.

However, I will stand that HE could had used a combination of Great Shuriken Mastery and his great speed. But I will doubt he use KB at all.

So? He still fired off two MS jutsus after that before he was out of power.

He had rest in between, and Im parting from the fact they mentioned he was weary after that, maybe not as weary as to when he retreated against Jiraiya, but I think the Exhaustion he had is a good indication that when Itachi plans to use MS, doing more than 2 Kage Bushin could prove too draining for him.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Hunter

All translation are actually stating otherwise. Only one early translation didn't because the translator didn't see the negation part of the sentence.
I have also heard off one scanlation team who deliberately changed the translation they used to stick with their own view though.
But I doubt you found scanlations saying Yamato was suppressing and not controling the Kyubi's chakra since every single translator have translated the line as controling.

The most obvious moment in the manga where it is stated is chapter 315 where Kakashi and Yamato explain why Naruto is the only person ables to do this training because with the Kyubi's chakra non suppressed he has 100 fold more chakra than Kakashi.

The thing is, whenever Naruto became Kyuubified, Yamato would immediately suppress, not control, the Kyuubified Naruto. "Control" could be taken as "enables Naruto to use Kyuubi chakra without actually taking on any of Kyuubi's characteristics" or "make sure Naruto doesn't use Kyuubi chakra and go beserk." However, I will concede that there is the possibility that Kakashi only has the ability to make 10 Kage Bunshin, though "could be 100 times more" implies that 100 times is an upper limit.

Originally Posted by Rurik

He didn’t mistook it for Kakshi, he asked from whom it was because he had no idea where it was coming from, so no nobody implied it was slightly greater. But he did Implied it was too big for Kakashi.

No, at first they both thought it was their opponent powering up.

Originally Posted by Rurik

But still the weakest form of Naruto is stil, superior than normal Shinoby.

He's stronger than his fellow Genin, but his normal Chakra wasn't enough to summon anything stronger than Gamakichi. It's clearly stated that he needs Kyuubi power to summon Gamabunta. Besides, even Chuunin are considered commanders and therefore "better than average." Itachi is MUCH better than average.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Yes he wasn’t as like he was before, howveer he was still strong enough to leave the ANBU in awed and still be the strongest Shinoby in Konoha. And I doubt Itachi had more Chakra than Sandaime, but that’s not the point, the point is, Doing more than 2 kage Bushin and then the MS.

So you're ignoring all the evidence I posted for opinion. Right.

Originally Posted by Rurik

No, As In any Normal Shinoby, and Itachi isn’t normal not because his Chakra, but because his insane Genius ability, Been strong doesn’t mean you need a chakra pool like a Sannin. Kisame should have a bigger Chakra pool than Itachi, yet Itachi is stronger than Him.

Pretty much every strong (Elite Jounin+) ninja we've come across has had a large chakra pool, with the possible exception of Sasori and Kabuto, and that's only because we don't know how much chakra it takes to use their jutsus. Besides, we've already seen that Naruto's normal chakra can't summon anything larger than Gamakichi whereas Tsunade can carry out Boss level summons. We KNOW that MS sucks chakra and that Itachi can do three of them and not need to be carried home.

Originally Posted by Rurik

In order words, I never had said Itachi could not do 2.

Fine, three. You still lose.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Ok, when you make up numbers, your calculation seems nice, whereas your calculation doesn’t take in account Itahchi’s speed, something like, Uchihas had only 40 Shinobies tha coul fight, It takes Itchi 1 seconds to Kill an Uchiha (that’s a fact), In order to Kill them all it would take him 40 second, if some Uchihas plans to escape, they will need around 1 minute to find help, whereas in order to reach the next help outside the clan location was located at 5 minutes from their current position.

So Yeah your numbers felt short if you decide to make what you want.

Nice try. You say they would ALL fight. I showed that even with a 99% fight rate, that's still not very good odds. Don't try that bait and switch tactic on me. I've shown that expecting all of them to fight is an unreasonable assumption for this already risky venture.

Originally Posted by Rurik

As I said maybe he didn’t need to worry because he was fast enough to catch anyone who tried to do so, or even fast enough to anyone to react, we are talking about a Shinoby that in a second had 3 Jounin with Sharingan in their feet.

Was this in the Anime or something? In the manga it wasn't clear how long the fight lasted, just that it was extremely fast.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Well, He did in fact do a genjutsu on Kakshi, so I guess Itachi knows he had a normal Genjuts that could work against a Shairngan user, I choose that option as genjutsu because it was the one I liked better than the other 2 options you gave.

However, I will stand that HE could had used a combination of Great Shuriken Mastery and his great speed. But I will doubt he use KB at all.

Like I said,
it's a possibility, just not a good one.

Originally Posted by Rurik

He had rest in between, and Im parting from the fact they mentioned he was weary after that, maybe not as weary as to when he retreated against Jiraiya, but I think the Exhaustion he had is a good indication that when Itachi plans to use MS, doing more than 2 Kage Bushin could prove too draining for him.

Chakra exhaustion isn't something that you can easily recover from. Kakashi takes around a week to recover from being completely drained, and Shizune thought that Naruto would take a week to recover from his chakra exhaustion. Recovering a 1/3 chakra drain would have taken days, not hours.

By the way, where do you get the "2 max" figure from? I try to provide calculations and concrete examples but you make up magic numbers.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Yogi

No, at first they both thought it was their opponent powering up.

No they didn’t, Kakashi right Away knew it was Kyuby, whereas Zabuza was completely confused about it.

He's stronger than his fellow Genin, but his normal Chakra wasn't enough to summon anything stronger than Gamakichi. It's clearly stated that he needs Kyuubi power to summon Gamabunta. Besides, even Chuunin are considered commanders and therefore "better than average." Itachi is MUCH better than average.

Yes to summon he need his secondary source of Chakra (and not even going Kyubyfied), reason why basically he and the sannin are the only people who can pull out a summon like gamabunta. and then I think you are not getting the point the person been strong doesn’t mean they need a large chakra pool, that will depend on the person and not on the rank.

So you're ignoring all the evidence I posted for opinion. Right.

No, Im not, I just don’t agree with those given it contradicts the Manga.

Pretty much every strong (Elite Jounin+) ninja we've come across has had a large chakra pool, with the possible exception of Sasori and Kabuto, and that's only because we don't know how much chakra it takes to use their jutsus.

Not only you are making things out of nowhere, but you are wrong, as kakashi himself said he had a low Chakra capacity, and we don’t have never idea of kabuto or sasori Chakras.

Besides, we've already seen that Naruto's normal chakra can't summon anything larger than Gamakichi whereas Tsunade can carry out Boss level summons. We KNOW that MS sucks chakra and that Itachi can do three of them and not need to be carried home.

Yes Tsunade can do that because her Natural Chakra is Insane compared to normal shinoby, Just as Jiraya and Oro, but people as kakshi can’t do that, and Itachi hasn’t shown that he could do that either.

Fine, three. You still lose.

What Kind if Childish behavior is this? Let me remind you that you didn’t say 3 or 4, you said a Dozen.

Nice try. You say they would ALL fight. I showed that even with a 99% fight rate, that's still not very good odds. Don't try that bait and switch tactic on me. I've shown that expecting all of them to fight is an unreasonable assumption for this already risky venture.

Im not using my calculation based that all will fight, Im basing it of all of them Running.

Even if only one decided to fight where the other 43 decided to run it would make no difference, I would only take One Second to Kill one and even less to kill those who are runin instead of fighting.

Was this in the Anime or something? In the manga it wasn't clear how long the fight lasted, just that it was extremely fast.

Yeah it was clear alright, One panel the Uchihas, next panel indication of the action of movement and panel of the uchihas in the ground, basically a second. And if oyu want to nitick really fast, but none the less it didn’t ive time to the uchias to react.

Like I said,
it's a possibility, just not a good one.

Isn’t a good one? I think is the most logical one parting from what Itachi is.

Chakra exhaustion isn't something that you can easily recover from. Kakashi takes around a week to recover from being completely drained, and Shizune thought that Naruto would take a week to recover from his chakra exhaustion. Recovering a 1/3 chakra drain would have taken days, not hours.

You have a serious misconception on the series:

Kakshi got like that because the Usage of the sharingan and the stress it give to the body, It was stated that shinoby recovers their Stamina after a Day of rest, if it was like oyu said, then Kakshi should had been in bed after he fought with Kakuuzu.

For naruto it was because of the Injuries received by his fight with sasuke.

And Then it seems you are not paying attention on what Im saying, is not that Im inverting that Itachi was weary after he used the MS on Kakashi, is that it was stated in the Manga, so if he could pull two MS later after been weary, that means his rest was good enough for him to pull two MS jutsu and a Genjutsu before getting completely drained

By the way, where do you get the "2 max" figure from? I try to provide calculations and concrete examples but you make up magic numbers.

Plane an simple, first of all, We haven’t seen a Shinoby outside Naruto or sandaime using kage Bushin to fight, maybe kakshi but it was very small amount of time two or 3 Taijutsu movements at best.

Itachi when he as 18, Did 4 Jutsu a kahe Bushin that did not fight and a MS, this left him weary

Now, parting from the fact that Kakshi said that with his low chkar cant maintain a Kage Bushin for long and that what you are talking about is a Kage Bushin that could fight whoever comes, and having in mind that itahi had 13 years old and hence a smaller chakra capacity, Ill say he at that time cold only pull 2 Kage Bushin that could fight so he had enough to do the MS., which is the MS the reason, not the KB itself but maybe the MS Drained Him 30 or 40 % but 2 more kage Busihn that could fight could take some 30 %, but you also have to calculate the stamina and jutsu if any he should had used. 2 seems probable.

My Number seem magic as ou said, and I could be wrong, but certainly mine number is based on what a Kage bushin that could fight takes. Whereas you are delusional thinking Kakshi can make 500 of those.

[MobiuS]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

She was a medic nin. She used a medical jutsu. The process of the jutsu doesn't need to be explained.

She used a medical jutsu to transfer a bloodline ability.
.__.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

You need an Uchiha body to most effectively use Sharingan. If Oro had Uchiha eyes transplanted into his body he wouldn't be able to deactivate the Sharingan and it would constantly drain his chakra, just like Kakashi's Sharingan drains chakra when he has it exposed.

Orochimaru summons Manda, revives people from the dead and uses tons of snake jutsus. I doubt the regular sharingan will incapacitate him as it does to kakashi.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

She's dead. Kakashi stated that all the people he ever cared about are dead so we can assume Rin died somehow. How she died isn't important to the plot. There's no reason to go into detail about it.

A one frame casual comment is supposed to explain how his initial team who had a chapter devoted to them got dispersed. Very nice and tidy writing.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

It's not as simple as stealing a body and then being able to produce an army of Sharingan users. Reproducing a bloodline is a complicated business.

Rin did it. And as far as we know ... shes an AVERAGE medic-nin.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Oro tried splicing the 1st Hokage's bloodline into 60 test subjects and Yamato was the only success. And I doubt most villages even have access to the resources that Oro used to accomplish that. For most, the concept of stealing bodies to learn the secrets of bloodlines probably runs on the principle that if you know exactly how a bloodline works then you can better come up with a way to defeat it. But a bloodline like the Sharingan might not have any major weaknesses to exploit, so even if a body was stolen, nothing came of it.

So is the sharingan a bloodline ability or an eye anomaly? Bloodline indicates yyou need the actual body and blood to use to move. Anomal could be regrafted on a different eye and it'll work the same. We know the sharingan is a blood line ability ... so how did Kakashi get it?

[othafa]

Originally Posted by MobiuS

- How did Rin transfer the eye?
- If Rin could do that, why can't Kabuto get a dead Uchiha and steal the eye for Orochimaru? He's a medical ninja and was cool with Konoha. His dad was in a place of authority. All he needs to do is steal two eyes from a corpse and then xfer it anytime Oro needs a new body.
- What happened to Rin?
- If people killed some Uchihas during the war (Gaara's grandmother confirmed such) and we know people take ninja corpses to steal secrets (hence the cleanup team like Haku's)... then why in the hell didn't someone take an Uchiha corpse and steal a sharingan for their side?

o___o

Actually, its explained simply by the fact that Rin transfered the eye while Obito was still alive. It seems that the Uchiha never developed a cursed seal of sorts that destroys their doujutsu upon death because it disappears after death. Also, it was Sasori's grandmother, not Gaara's.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Rurik

No they didn’t, Kakashi right Away knew it was Kyuby, whereas Zabuza was completely confused about it.

No. Kakashi thought it was Zabuza, then realized it was Kyuubi.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Yes to summon he need his secondary source of Chakra (and not even going Kyubyfied), reason why basically he and the sannin are the only people who can pull out a summon like gamabunta. and then I think you are not getting the point the person been strong doesn’t mean they need a large chakra pool, that will depend on the person and not on the rank.

Not only you are making things out of nowhere, but you are wrong, as kakashi himself said he had a low Chakra capacity, and we don’t have never idea of kabuto or sasori Chakras.

Yes Tsunade can do that because her Natural Chakra is Insane compared to normal shinoby, Just as Jiraya and Oro, but people as kakshi can’t do that, and Itachi hasn’t shown that he could do that either.

First, all levels are relative. It's clear that what is considered strong for a Genin and what is considered strong for a Jounin are two different things. Kakashi can summon stronger things than Naruto can, so his Chakra was greater than Naruto's at the time. However, compared to Orochimaru, Sandaime, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Gaara, Deidara, Hidan, Kazuku, Shodaime, Nidaime, Sandaime no Kazekage, Kisame, Gai with Gates, it's rather low.

Which leaves Kabuto and Sasori as powerful ninja with questionable stamina levels. We don't know how much chakra puppets and chakra scalpels take up, so they're unknown. However, we know that MS jutsus such chakra and Itachi can use them. Hence, he joins the ninjas in Column A.

Originally Posted by Rurik

No, Im not, I just don’t agree with those given it contradicts the Manga.

I'm the one bringing evidence from the Manga. Bring your own evidence.

Originally Posted by Rurik

What Kind if Childish behavior is this? Let me remind you that you didn’t say 3 or 4, you said a Dozen.

Oh I have plenty of other arguments which are in favor of dozens. See my previous posts.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Im not using my calculation based that all will fight

No, you said they would all fight. See YOUR previous posts.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Yeah it was clear alright, One panel the Uchihas, next panel indication of the action of movement and panel of the uchihas in the ground, basically a second. And if oyu want to nitick really fast, but none the less it didn’t ive time to the uchias to react.

I saw the scene. All it shows was that Itachi easily beat the three. It didn't show the fight so we don't know what happened.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Isn’t a good one?

No.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Kakshi got like that because the Usage of the sharingan and the stress it give to the body, It was stated that shinoby recovers their Stamina after a Day of rest, if it was like oyu said, then Kakshi should had been in bed after he fought with Kakuuzu.

Kakashi could still walk after that battle so he didn't need to. Plus, he used the Sharingan in that fight too, so having that as the reason he needs bed rest is invalid. Simply put, Kakashi didn't expand as much energy as he did against Zanuza and Deidara.

Originally Posted by Rurik

For naruto it was because of the Injuries received by his fight with sasuke.

Nope, I was referring to when he collapsed Rasengan training. Because of how drained he was, Shizune though that because Naruto was awake that days had past.

Originally Posted by Rurik

And Then it seems you are not paying attention on what Im saying, is not that Im inverting that Itachi was weary after he used the MS on Kakashi, is that it was stated in the Manga, so if he could pull two MS later after been weary, that means his rest was good enough for him to pull two MS jutsu and a Genjutsu before getting completely drained

"one hour rest restores chakra" already debunked. Itachi's grand total is 3 MS jutsus plus misc.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Plane an simple, first of all, We haven’t seen a Shinoby outside Naruto or sandaime using kage Bushin to fight, maybe kakshi but it was very small amount of time two or 3 Taijutsu movements at best.

30% Itachi also used a Kage Bunshin to fight.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Now, parting from the fact that Kakshi said that with his low chkar cant maintain a Kage Bushin for long and that what you are talking about is a Kage Bushin that could fight whoever comes, and having in mind that itahi had 13 years old and hence a smaller chakra capacity, Ill say he at that time cold only pull 2 Kage Bushin that could fight so he had enough to do the MS., which is the MS the reason, not the KB itself but maybe the MS Drained Him 30 or 40 % but 2 more kage Busihn that could fight could take some 30 %, but you also have to calculate the stamina and jutsu if any he should had used. 2 seems probable.

My Number seem magic as ou said, and I could be wrong, but certainly mine number is based on what a Kage bushin that could fight takes. Whereas you are delusional thinking Kakshi can make 500 of those.

Concession accepted.

[BlackShinobi07]

He killed the clan by cutting them to peices with a katana

[Rurik]

First I apologize from my last post and its poor spelling, I was in a run and could not verify the Spelling to it smallest detail.

Originally Posted by Yogi

No. Kakashi thought it was Zabuza, then realized it was Kyuubi.

Kakashi had the same idea as Zabuza did, they though of the first person the could think of, Kakashi corrected himself right away saying who it was. at the end, neither of the shinoby thought the power was close to them. but different from Zabuza, Kakashi knew right away who it was, Zabuza never knew who it was.

First, all levels are relative. It's clear that what is considered strong for a Genin and what is considered strong for a Jounin are two different things. Kakashi can summon stronger things than Naruto can, so his Chakra was greater than Naruto's at the time. However, compared to Orochimaru, Sandaime, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Gaara, Deidara, Hidan, Kazuku, Shodaime, Nidaime, Sandaime no Kazekage, Kisame, Gai with Gates, it's rather low.

As in fact this is just flawed, it is true that something that is strong is way different to a Genin than to a Jounin, but for Naruto is different, Naruto has an Unlimited feed from Kyubi, even if Naruto runs out of his original source, he can still squeeze Chakra form Kyuby without needing to go Kyubified.

And you can't compare what Kakshi can summon and Naruto could summon, Naruto could Summon or Gamakashi or Gamabunta, all of this were based more on Naruto's poor chakra control, Kakashi was different as he could summon his pack of dogs, that is not even near what Summoning Gamabunta is.

Which leaves Kabuto and Sasori as powerful ninja with questionable stamina levels. We don't know how much chakra puppets and chakra scalpels take up, so they're unknown. However, we know that MS jutsus such chakra and Itachi can use them. Hence, he joins the ninjas in Column A.

We know that MS jutsu takes a lot of Chakra, however we cant compared it to other Jutsu we don't have any idea of what they take, just our assumption of it. for all we know, Using a puppet like Sandaime Kazekage can take a lot more of Chakra than the MS.

I'm the one bringing evidence from the Manga. Bring your own evidence.

You haven't bring any evidence of manga at all, just your misconception and misreading on what it was said.as long as you still belive that Naruto was creating hundred of clone without Kyubi and that any Shinoby could call up Dozens fighting clone without a sweat, you are in contradiction.

Oh I have plenty of other arguments which are in favor of dozens. See my previous posts.

NO, in fact your argument that favor Dozens is just based on Kakashi doing more than a donzen without Having Chakra.

No, you said they would all fight. See YOUR previous posts.

Look at my previous post and tell me where did I said they were all going to fight:

Originally Posted by Rurik

Uchihas had only 40 Shinobies tha coul fight, It takes Itchi 1 seconds to Kill an Uchiha (that’s a fact), In order to Kill them all it would take him 40 second, if some Uchihas plans to escape, they will need around 1 minute to find help, whereas in order to reach the next help outside the clan location was located at 5 minutes from their current position.

I just said 40 Shinobies that could fight, not that they all were going to fight him. note that I talked about Ucihhas runing. so my post took the possibility from some ruining to all of them running.

I saw the scene. All it shows was that Itachi easily beat the three. It didn't show the fight so we don't know what happened.

Read the complete manga to see action just like this, each time Kishimoto (or any other Manga for that matter) use this type of action representation is to describe sudden movement, and not movements that could had lasted lost of time.

Kakashi could still walk after that battle so he didn't need to. Plus, he used the Sharingan in that fight too, so having that as the reason he needs bed rest is invalid. Simply put, Kakashi didn't expand as much energy as he did against Zanuza and Deidara.

Because Kakashi didn't relied that heavily on Sharingan

The first time he fought with Zabuza he relied heavily on Sharingan, against Deidara it was basically because of the MS, as in fact Kakashi himself said the last time he did not ended on the Hospital because he did not used the MS.

Nope, I was referring to when he collapsed Rasengan training. Because of how drained he was, Shizune though that because Naruto was awake that days had past.

Remember that this collapse was based on Naruto getting Injured because of the Training of the rasengan. and I told you about Kakashi Been out of it: when he fought Kakuuzu, and another one I remember Against Zabuza the 2nd time, I can come up with more moments like that, you have to decide on what to believe.

"one hour rest restores chakra" already debunked. Itachi's grand total is 3 MS jutsus plus misc.

Here is were we disagree, As long as it was said that Itachi was weary after he performed KB, I will belive he is not able to a dozen wile using MS.

30% Itachi also used a Kage Bunshin to fight.

Yes, but remember this KB was destroyed in the spot once it was created, In I doubt you belive A Kage Bushin that was used for Bait, takes more than a KB that is created to fight.

---

On a side note, we are debating about chakra consumption, but I think Kishimoto himself hasn't followed a straight rule about it, I think he makes his characters waste chakra or deplete their chakra as he see fit, basically, the chakra consumption of each character is rather ambiguous to tell how much they need to get completely drained. this is just an idea an avery personal opinion I have been thinking about after Kakshis last fight. Hunter, Saze (and others) I would love to hear your opinion about this (even if its going a little off topic).

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by MobiuS

Its very simple to detemine there was a ton of sharingan users.

Kakshi Gaiden.
Obito.

Kakashi's comment to Obito was that he's an Uchiha failure ... he does not have sharingan at that age. Even if we assume only 30% of Uchihas above Obito's age had Sharingan, thats still 1/3 of all the fighting age Uchihas had it.

Im not going to discount or decompile the Uchiha massacre however. Im just taking it as one of our first indicators that Kish was a terrible writer and this was the first clue. 1 sharingan amongst possible hundreds and he came out without a scratch or an alarm being set off at least once.

We'll never see the massacre or any other cool scenes. Because animating them will just magnify plotholes even more, or force Kish to give more abilities to the sharingan on the fly.

Take for example, Kakashi Gaiden.

- How did Rin transfer the eye? (1)
- If Rin could do that, why can't Kabuto get a dead Uchiha and steal the eye for Orochimaru? (2) He's a medical ninja and was cool with Konoha. His dad was in a place of authority. All he needs to do is steal two eyes from a corpse and then xfer it anytime Oro needs a new body.
- What happened to Rin? (3)
- If people killed some Uchihas during the war (Gaara's grandmother confirmed such) and we know people take ninja corpses to steal secrets (hence the cleanup team like Haku's)... then why in the hell didn't someone take an Uchiha corpse and steal a sharingan for their side? (4)

o___o

About your Plothole accusations:

(1)

She likely did some sort of chakra surgery. Granted, scientists in real life have not been able to transplant an entire eye. It is a very delicate organ and is not possible to transplant to full functionality with current technology like a heart or kidney.


(2)

I don't think Kabuto was employed by Sasori or Orochimaru during the Uchiha massacre. By the time he was the Uchiha bodies would be decayed past the point of having eyes.

Rin took Obito's eyes while he was still alive which may be a major factor in how the jutsu works.

Plus, I don't think Orochimaru wanted a transplanted eye like Kakashi's. He wanted to use the ability to its full potential which is why he tried to get Itachi and Sasuke's bodies to inherit their bloodlines.


(3)

We don't know. Kakashi did say that all of those precious to him have already died (e.g. His father, his Sensei, his short time best friend Obito).

I thought that ANBU girl who visited his grave might be Rin but they look nothing alike and we know that Kishi usually draws children to look similar to their adult counter parts.


(4)


Who's to say that they didn't? There could have been dozens of copy ninja wannabes with transplanted eyes like Kakashi throughout the history of ninja conflicts.

But in the end the eye's greatest strength comes from the bloodline that spawned it.

The Uchiha seem to not only be the wielders of an impressive bloodline ability but have a high percentage of geniuses in their clan. They are natural talents biologically and their true power comes from their blood.

I find it strange that Kakashi can even use Sharingan as it is a "bloodline" ability and since he has no Uchiha DNA he should not be able to use its powers.

But Kishi has written it so that he has "limited compatibility". He can see out of it obviously and use some of its powers by using his own chakra but because it is not compatible with his genes it drains him to the extent that does not happen for normal Uchiha Sharingan users.

I think Kishi has done some poor writing, such as having Oro be defeated by an 11 year old Itachi. I think he should have beaten him after fleeing the village and joining Akatsuki later in life.

But in this situation I do not think he has contradicted himself too much on the nature of Sharingan.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Kakashi had the same idea as Zabuza did, they though of the first person the could think of, Kakashi corrected himself right away saying who it was. at the end, neither of the shinoby thought the power was close to them. but different from Zabuza, Kakashi knew right away who it was, Zabuza never knew who it was.

Which is what I said. He though it was Zabuza, then corrected himself. Hence, the power was slightly greater to the point it could be confused.

Originally Posted by Rurik

As in fact this is just flawed, it is true that something that is strong is way different to a Genin than to a Jounin, but for Naruto is different, Naruto has an Unlimited feed from Kyubi, even if Naruto runs out of his original source, he can still squeeze Chakra form Kyuby without needing to go Kyubified.

Unlimited? Naruto runs out of Chakra all the time. And where is the proof that Naruto can use Kyuuubi's power without being Kyuubified.

Originally Posted by Rurik

And you can't compare what Kakshi can summon and Naruto could summon, Naruto could Summon or Gamakashi or Gamabunta, all of this were based more on Naruto's poor chakra control, Kakashi was different as he could summon his pack of dogs, that is not even near what Summoning Gamabunta is.

I already said, Naruto only summons Gamabunta when he gets Kyuubi chakra. It has nothing to do with chakra control. If it was the case, them after Naruto's chakra control increased from his Rasengan training, he would have been able to summon something bigger.

Originally Posted by Rurik

We know that MS jutsu takes a lot of Chakra, however we cant compared it to other Jutsu we don't have any idea of what they take, just our assumption of it. for all we know, Using a puppet like Sandaime Kazekage can take a lot more of Chakra than the MS.

Translation:I have no evidence.

Originally Posted by Rurik

You haven't bring any evidence of manga at all, just your misconception and misreading on what it was said.as long as you still belive that Naruto was creating hundred of clone without Kyubi and that any Shinoby could call up Dozens fighting clone without a sweat, you are in contradiction.

NO, in fact your argument that favor Dozens is just based on Kakashi doing more than a donzen without Having Chakra.

Translation: I have no evidence. I also cannot read all the OTHER arguments posted.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Look at my previous post and tell me where did I said they were all going to fight:
I just said 40 Shinobies that could fight, not that they all were going to fight him. note that I talked about Ucihhas runing. so my post took the possibility from some ruining to all of them running.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Both of us are stating merely our opinion, and as I said I find it really unlikely those uchiha that could fight decided not to fight against Itachi, given the Uchiha were suppose to be the Help.

Originally Posted by Rurik

You are parting from the premise that the UChiha who could fight Itachi, would had tried to run instead of fighting, too look for help (which actually they themselves are the help) something I told you is highly unlikely, what about those who could not fight?

Originally Posted by Rurik

is the point i said erlier is that, not only a Shinoby from the police force will rather fight instead of Run, but also, stalling Itachi was matter of seconds. not enough for someone to get help.

You've been constantly arguing that they would all fight, and now you do a 180 and say they'll all run? And pretend that's your argument all the time? Utterly dishonest.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Read the complete manga to see action just like this, each time Kishimoto (or any other Manga for that matter) use this type of action representation is to describe sudden movement, and not movements that could had lasted lost of time.

No, you were the one who said one second when there was no proof it lasted just one second.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Because Kakashi didn't relied that heavily on Sharingan

The first time he fought with Zabuza he relied heavily on Sharingan, against Deidara it was basically because of the MS, as in fact Kakashi himself said the last time he did not ended on the Hospital because he did not used the MS.

Of course. Using jutsu that depend on the Sharingan doesn't mean you relied on it. Makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Remember that this collapse was based on Naruto getting Injured because of the Training of the rasengan. and I told you about Kakashi Been out of it: when he fought Kakuuzu, and another one I remember Against Zabuza the 2nd time, I can come up with more moments like that, you have to decide on what to believe.

First, Shizune stated that it was because of Chakra exhaustion. Give it up. In addition, why do you assume that someone will use all their power in every fight. Kakashi had enough left over for several dozen Kage Bunshin. If he has been really tired. he'd just have used regular Bunshin and hope the enemy will fall for the bluff.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Here is were we disagree, As long as it was said that Itachi was weary after he performed KB, I will belive he is not able to a dozen wile using MS.

Ah, the old "it's just my opinion" instead of giving evidence.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Yes, but remember this KB was destroyed in the spot once it was created, In I doubt you belive A Kage Bushin that was used for Bait, takes more than a KB that is created to fight.

The KB also did some Genjutsu against Naruto.

[MobiuS]

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

About your Plothole accusations:
She likely did some sort of chakra surgery.

Im not complaining that it was a transferred eye. People have lost more than that and got it back (the spirit in your arms?)

Im complaining because that means any "physical" bloodline trait can be stolen! I can get a Byakugan in one eye, a sharingan in the other and throw it on someone with genes from Kimimaro's clan. 3 bloodlines on 1 body. Doesnt the bloodline have to do with your BLOOD?

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

I don't think Kabuto was employed by Sasori or Orochimaru during the Uchiha massacre. By the time he was the Uchiha bodies would be decayed past the point of having eyes.

This is an assumption. Kabuto's history runs very deep and mysterious. For all we know ... Kabuto could have been a mole baby clone planted on the battlefield by Orochimaru. Its inconclusive to decide Kabuto was not in anyone's employ at the time.

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

Rin took Obito's eyes while he was still alive which may be a major factor in how the jutsu works.

Im sure during combat, theres critically injured but not dead people on the floor. Steal a sharingan.

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

Plus, I don't think Orochimaru wanted a transplanted eye like Kakashi's. He wanted to use the ability to its full potential which is why he tried to get Itachi and Sasuke's bodies to inherit their bloodlines.

Again with the bloodline. How is Kakashi able to run a sharingan without the right blood? Oro's chakra pool means he CAN run a sharingan with virtually no issues. What I dont get is why he wants their body when he can graft it on ANY body. Ild take Kisames so I can have disgusting chakra levels and be able to run any dojutsus I want to.

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

We don't know. Kakashi did say that all of those precious to him have already died (e.g. His father, his Sensei, his short time best friend Obito).

I thought that ANBU girl who visited his grave might be Rin but they look nothing alike and we know that Kishi usually draws children to look similar to their adult counter parts.

Assumption to explain away a plothole Kish made. If theres no conclusive manga evidence, it doesnt count. Its an omission.

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

I find it strange that Kakashi can even use Sharingan as it is a "bloodline" ability and since he has no Uchiha DNA he should not be able to use its powers.

My point exactly.

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

But Kishi has written it so that he has "limited compatibility". He can see out of it obviously and use some of its powers by using his own chakra but because it is not compatible with his genes it drains him to the extent that does not happen for normal Uchiha Sharingan users.

Actually hes been able to use all of its power till he started throwing crazy addons to <that uchiha whose name I will never spell right>. What Itachi can do with his, Kakashi has done. Save for the Gen Pillar sealing. But we dont know if hes ever had to use it or not.

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

I think Kishi has done some poor writing, such as having Oro be defeated by an 11 year old Itachi. I think he should have beaten him after fleeing the village and joining Akatsuki later in life.

That was the beginning of his many mistakes. As if Oro didnt live in Konoha with Uchihas ... he knows the full specs of their moves.

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

But in this situation I do not think he has contradicted himself too much on the nature of Sharingan.

No no ... not contradicted. Over expanded is the right word.
In the beginning ... the tw dojutsus (Byakugan and Sharingan) were like 2 different guns ...

Byakugan - silenced usp
Sharingan - glock 9

Now Kish decided to throw on a scope, a laser beam, a grenade launcher, cheese grater, potato peeler and remote control on the glock .. with no explanation as to how or why they need to be there. Hes just like ..

"Oh and ... the glock can now do all you tivo settings without you having to touch it!"

Theres the people who arent worried about the quality of the plot. They are like ... "omg! it fckin peels potatos AND it can wipe my ass for me when Im done shitting. Oh man this rocks!"

And then theres the normal readers who are like ... "why do i need a potato peeler on my gun?