[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Shadow Miko

I'm curious about something at the end of ep3 and ep4.

Spoiler:

The siestas 'protect' Maria and call her Lady Maria. Could this mean they knew she would become a witch in ep4? Or was it because she already had her own powers? Or am I looking to much into it? If something had been said against... like... Kyrie, would you have called her Lady Kyrie and such? I mean I'm not sure if that was the real Maria or not but... ack, I'm confused. am I just looking too much into this?

EP4 gives a good reason for them to call her Lady Maria, but, here, it would be a spoiler.

And the end of EP3 is pretty much a trap from Beato.

[Unentschieden]

Originally Posted by UminekoFan

Hi, guys!

Just finished reading Umineko (3rd EP) yesterday and I have a few questions going around in my head. Would any of you be kind enough to tell me if they are answered in EP4?

*SPOILERS for EP3*

Spoiler for Umineko EP3:

Q.1 --- We already know that Kumasama is Virgilia and she can easily protect herself from the Seven Stakes, then why didn't she protect herself in EP1 and EP2?
Q.2 --- Is Virigilia on Beatrice's side? If she is that makes no sense since as far as I remember Virgilia told Beatrice that Magic should be used to give happiness and not pain and damage to humans. Was Beatrice lying about Virigilia telling her all this?
Q.3 --- Did Ronove know that Beatrice was faking about reforming herself?

That's all.

*Answer to Spoilers above*

Spoiler for Umineko EP3:

According to Beatrice "magic" gets stronger the more it´s accepted. She even comments on it that Battlers near-defeat in Ep.2 made her strong enough to call Ronove but also caused Virgilia to "wake up".
I´d say what is actually the reason would be to increase the pressure on Battler (and us). Imagine the Beatrice vs. Virgilia battle would have been in EP.1 - not only would it weaken the integriety of the story more than necessary (that´s clearly made up and so is almost everything else), it would also leave the 07 Expansion with less new stuff to create plot twists(even if that plot is double imaginary) / suprise us with.

Virgilia and Ronove as well as the rest of the "Purgatory cast" are imaginary and therefore on the same side. They were introduced by "Beatrice"(07Expansion) to follow a different aproach to convince Battler (the Reader). By that aproach even Bernkastell is a "enemy" (please, no Ep 04 spoilers!)
Remember that the very beginning of Ep03 is a setup for a substory to provoke sympathy with Beatrice the human and therefore by extension to the witch.
(I´m still wondering if Beatrices death is true for every episode)

In E03 a more emotional argument is used to make Battler/us accept witches. Resistance against the witch theory is reinforced in the First 2 episodes since Beatrice is clearly the villian and has to be denied simply because of that. Her "reformation" makes her literally more acceptable. (In Higurashi Oyashiro-sama became a lot more real once she was portrayed as a "friendly moeblob" instead of a vegentfull spirit)

Objectivly Episode03 is the weakest in reinforcing the witch theory since it outright reveals the human culprit.

[Nadeor]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Efficient coding mandates that you don't use an "else if" command for the opposite conditional, you can just use "else" because there are only two cases anyway.

Don't be so quick to discount the possibility that something resembling golden butterflies can actually exist, either.

Yeah that's the case
I was just giving the else if statement to re-state my point; In case anyone got the other possibility messed up with the previous one

Well to me the likelihood of the existence of Golden Butterflies is not that much
First of all, they appears whenever magic is involved
Second of all, Beatrice and other witches used them to form different 'familiars' or even to form bodies of themselves
...The Hinamizawa syndrome is 'understandable'
but this?

[UminekoFan]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

1. Virgilia and Kumasawa are separate entities. As shown in the banquet in the end, both are not sharing the same body. Therefore, Virgilia just used Kumasawa as a vessel in episode 3, that's all.
Also, remember that Beato stirred too much stuff over the chessboards that made virgilia awakening.
Finally, since magic is obviously pure fantasy that should not be considered thus far, regardless if they are the same person, it is plain normal kumasawa cannot survive.

2. That is not true if Virgilia is controlled by Beato. If she becomes her pawn (just like "dark" kanon in episode 2), even if she is almighty, ever since she is revived by Beato, it is useless.
Since we had that tips + dream at the start (which cannot be witnessed by Battler), it means that Virgilia was most likely what she was shown to begin with, but there isn't any clue that shows when she turned into Beato's side.

3. Considering Ronove's usual jabs, it is very likely that he knew the plan.

Originally Posted by Unentschieden

*Answer to Spoilers above*

Spoiler for Umineko EP3:

According to Beatrice "magic" gets stronger the more it´s accepted. She even comments on it that Battlers near-defeat in Ep.2 made her strong enough to call Ronove but also caused Virgilia to "wake up".
I´d say what is actually the reason would be to increase the pressure on Battler (and us). Imagine the Beatrice vs. Virgilia battle would have been in EP.1 - not only would it weaken the integriety of the story more than necessary (that´s clearly made up and so is almost everything else), it would also leave the 07 Expansion with less new stuff to create plot twists(even if that plot is double imaginary) / suprise us with.

Virgilia and Ronove as well as the rest of the "Purgatory cast" are imaginary and therefore on the same side. They were introduced by "Beatrice"(07Expansion) to follow a different aproach to convince Battler (the Reader). By that aproach even Bernkastell is a "enemy" (please, no Ep 04 spoilers!)
Remember that the very beginning of Ep03 is a setup for a substory to provoke sympathy with Beatrice the human and therefore by extension to the witch.
(I´m still wondering if Beatrices death is true for every episode)

In E03 a more emotional argument is used to make Battler/us accept witches. Resistance against the witch theory is reinforced in the First 2 episodes since Beatrice is clearly the villian and has to be denied simply because of that. Her "reformation" makes her literally more acceptable. (In Higurashi Oyashiro-sama became a lot more real once she was portrayed as a "friendly moeblob" instead of a vegentfull spirit)

Objectivly Episode03 is the weakest in reinforcing the witch theory since it outright reveals the human culprit.

Thanks for the help, both of you.

[Nadeor]

An interesting theory I saw today
Maybe we can take another different Approach on colors

Spoiler for EP3:

The colors we have so far bumped into when involving magic are Red, Blue, Purple and Gold
Maybe these colors hint something...
If we were to talk about the Red Statements are 'absolutely right', can we apply this on Kanon and Shannon as well?
The red swords (Ex. Normal Kanon) can mean an actuall fighting scene
The red shields (Ex. Shannon) can mean protecting someone from being harmed
The red-eyed characters can be murder weapons (Ex. Red-eyed Kanon and the S.O.P.s)
The side which is using a red-colored weapon is the victim, and the blue-colored weapon is the culprit/murderer
Purple can mean both the victim and the culprit, because Red + Blue = Purple

Gold can hint the 'cause' or 'motives'
The Family Symbol of the Ushiromiyans, The hidden gold, and Kinzo's golden ring
The golden butterflies can be a sign of murderous scent

The theory is by morningdream, credits to him
What do you guys think?

[Unentschieden]

Originally Posted by Nadeor

An interesting theory I saw today
Maybe we can take another different Approach on colors

Spoiler for EP3:

The colors we have so far bumped into when involving magic are Red, Blue, Purple and Gold
Maybe these colors hint something...
If we were to talk about the Red Statements are 'absolutely right', can we apply this on Kanon and Shannon as well?
The red swords (Ex. Normal Kanon) can mean an actuall fighting scene
The red shields (Ex. Shannon) can mean protecting someone from being harmed
The red-eyed characters can be murder weapons (Ex. Red-eyed Kanon and the S.O.P.s)
The side which is using a red-colored weapon is the victim, and the blue-colored weapon is the culprit/murderer
Purple can mean both the victim and the culprit, because Red + Blue = Purple

Gold can hint the 'cause' or 'motives'
The Family Symbol of the Ushiromiyans, The hidden gold, and Kinzo's golden ring
The golden butterflies can be a sign of murderous scent

The theory is by morningdream, credits to him
What do you guys think?

I said it before but I´m very carefull when interpreting "magic". That really limits my aproaches though since it´s about 50/50 in the things I´d consider trustworthy(what real Battler sees and Red Text) and dubious (anything "Beatrice" comes up with).

But Magic seems to me to be colourcode for the "owner".
Gold:The endless Witch
Red:The Servants
Blue:Beatrices Furniture
Purple: Virgilia

[MuzikalNotes]

I finished episode 3 this morning (it's night now), so my memory's not at its best, but there's one thing that's been stuck in my mind for some reason.

Spoiler for episode 3:

Remember in Episode 1, when Natsuhi is killed by a gun bullet? At that time, it was assumed that it had been "deflected" since it would easily be deflected by Beatrice (or witches in general), but during the fourth to sixth twilight of ep3, we learn that even witches can be fatally wounded with a gun, like a normal human, and that a gun-resistant barrier would take a long time to summon (ignoring the fact that Eva-Beatrice made one in an instant, since she has been the only character so far to have done this).
So either one, Beatrice had prepared the barrier beforehand, or two, as someone else said, Beatrice had her own gun and used that to shoot Natsuhi, then quickly switched guns before the children came. Assuming the hall is very long, and that the children were just outside the parlor, she would have enough time to do all that and hide the other gun.

I know this actually speculation on stuff in episode 1, but since some of the "evidence" (I don't know how to say it) is revealed in ep3, I had to put it here. I'm still supporting the "Magic exists, but is not directly involved with the crime" side.

[Haruyan]

Is it me, or does Kanon seem more defiant with each EP? In EP1 he seems pretty resigned with the fact that he's furniture, but in EP3 he outright claims that he no longer wants to be furniture. Or is it just his dislike of Beatrice?

[Saerianne]

Originally Posted by Haruyan

Is it me, or does Kanon seem more defiant with each EP? In EP1 he seems pretty resigned with the fact that he's furniture, but in EP3 he outright claims that he no longer wants to be furniture. Or is it just his dislike of Beatrice?

I also noticed this. Don't know if it's because of Beatrice or if Shannon's words finally got to him.

[Haruyan]

Originally Posted by Saerianne

I also noticed this. Don't know if it's because of Beatrice or if Shannon's words finally got to him.

Maybe all that courage is starting to built up episode to episode. Maybe he's Bern's piece?

[Saerianne]

Originally Posted by Haruyan

Maybe all that courage is starting to built up episode to episode. Maybe he's Bern's piece?

Could be.

I was going to say something else but it's spoilers for the next ep.

[Nadeor]

Spoiler for EP3:

Kanon finally realized that maybe getting laid wasn't such a bad thing
(Jkjk)

[Matrim]

I am in the early stages of my episode 2 replay but I thought I might as well share some observations.

Spoiler for ep. 1-3:

Eva harshly informs Shannon that there is no chance in hell George will marry her. So far so good but a bit later Shannon meets Beatrice. Who among other things repeats Eva's opinion about Shannon almost word for word (she should be grateful for her education, yadda, yadda) and says pretty much the same about George as what Eva did.

Even more interestingly we have this discrepancy - Shannon and Beato are somewhat friendly before the main events in ep.2 – how come Shannon's PoV fears Beato and is not sure if the witch exists in ep.1? When we last see her, she notices a golden butterfly and freaks out, thinking about how Kanon might have been right about seeing the witch. I mean, we assume that the time rewind does not go that far and that the events pre-Oct 4 in ep.2 are true for all episodes. If Shannon has already seen Beato many times, there is no reason whatsoever to wonder what the golden butterfly might be or whether the witch exists. Also Shannon's PoV in ep.2 claims she was getting better in her work and is praised by Krauss and Natsuhi, yet in ep.1 she appears to be just as clumsy and shy as she is in the very beginnng of ep.2, before she meets "Beatrice". Also, this growth in confidence seems to be a very common motiff in the game - Natsuhi in ep.1, Rosa in ep.2, Shannon. Maybe it indicates people being manipulated by the witch?

[Saerianne]

Originally Posted by Matrim

I am in the early stages of my episode 2 replay but I thought I might as well share some observations.

Spoiler for ep. 1-3:

Eva harshly informs Shannon that there is no chance in hell George will marry her. So far so good but a bit later Shannon meets Beatrice. Who among other things repeats Eva's opinion about Shannon almost word for word (she should be grateful for her education, yadda, yadda) and says pretty much the same about George as what Eva did.

Even more interestingly we have this discrepancy - Shannon and Beato are somewhat friendly before the main events in ep.2 – how come Shannon's PoV fears Beato and is not sure if the witch exists in ep.1? When we last see her, she notices a golden butterfly and freaks out, thinking about how Kanon might have been right about seeing the witch. I mean, we assume that the time rewind does not go that far and that the events pre-Oct 4 in ep.2 are true for all episodes. If Shannon has already seen Beato many times, there is no reason whatsoever to wonder what the golden butterfly might be or whether the witch exists. Also Shannon's PoV in ep.2 claims she was getting better in her work and is praised by Krauss and Natsuhi, yet in ep.1 she appears to be just as clumsy and shy as she is in the very beginnng of ep.2, before she meets "Beatrice". Also, this growth in confidence seems to be a very common motiff in the game - Natsuhi in ep.1, Rosa in ep.2, Shannon. Maybe it indicates people being manipulated by the witch?

Kanon also gets a confidence boost about his 'Furniture' issue, aswell.
It could be manipulation, or it could just be 'chance'. That's not the word I was looking for though. ><<;

[Haruyan]

Kanon also gets a confidence boost about his 'Furniture' issue, aswell.
It could be manipulation, or it could just be 'chance'. That's not the word I was looking for though. ><<;

I also think it culd be a bit of manipulation. Considering the game properly starts when the storm arrives, Beato could've manipulated some things since before (I think of it as preparing her pieces), but that would be supporting the anti-mystery side.

But if we also consider that the game is reset every time, I think it could be possible that things develop differently (like a separate reality), regardless of Beatrice's intervention. It's pretty silly, I know but, well *shrug*

[MuzikalNotes]

Thing is, have we even considered if they're just moving back time or moving from one world to the next? If the former is true, then there might be a chance that they were manipulated by her, but if it is the latter, then it's likely that events had changed between worlds.

[Avisch]

Just to list what may or may not be consistent

Spoiler for Episode 1:

1. Krauss telling Natsuhi about the gold.
2. Rudolf telling Kyrie and Battler that he will be killed.
3. George giving Shannon the ring/

First one may be consistent. Second one I'm beginning to think it's not cause Battler never asks about it in episode 3. The third one always happens.

Spoiler for Episode 2:

1. Already mentioned. Shannon meeting Beatrice.
2. Jessica & Kanon and George & Shannon going out before the family reunion.

First one as Matrim said. Shannon's minor character differences are implying that it is not consistent. For the Second one, considering that Jessica's and George's feelings for their perspective servants we can say this may or may not be consistent.

Spoiler for Episode 3:

(Biggest one) Rosa telling all the parents that she met Beatrice was a child.

Hardest to determine. I don't know how to think about this. Of note this is the only bit of the night discussion that we have gotten

Spoiler for Matrim's spoiler:

Also, this growth in confidence seems to be a very common motiff in the game - Natsuhi in ep.1, Rosa in ep.2, Shannon. Maybe it indicates people being manipulated by the witch?

Very good theory.

[Rias]

Kanon does seem to have a boost in confidence since his introduction from ep1.

Kanon's development from ep1~3:

Ep1: Equipped one of the strongest weapon in Higurashi world.

Ep2: Killed a goat

Ep3: Lost his right arm but defeated the one of the sisters.

Spoiler for Kanon's real development.:

Ep1
"Wait for your next summoner, Beatrice!" ----> killed by Satan
Ep2
"Goats? But you can just kill them with a gold ingot and a fountain pen." By Rosa
Ep3
"Stakes are weak" by Rudolph
"Stakes are slow" by Kyrie

Spoiler for Kanon's future development by the rate he's going:

Timing of Kanon's death
Ep1: 4th night
Ep2: 2nd
Ep3" 1st
At this rate:
Ep4: Oct 4th
Ep5: Died while working
Ep6: Died in the orphanage
Ep7: Wasn't made at all.
Ep8: Everyone: "I see, all the mysteries have been solved! By the way, who's Kanon?"

[Avisch]

Wow.....We found someone almost as cruel as Eva-Beatrice right there.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Rias

Spoiler for Kanon's future development by the rate he's going:

Timing of Kanon's death
Ep1: 4th night
Ep2: 2nd
Ep3" 1st
At this rate:
Ep4: Oct 4th
Ep5: Died while working
Ep6: Died in the orphanage
Ep7: Wasn't made at all.
Ep8: Everyone: "I see, all the mysteries have been solved! By the way, who's Kanon?"

... Kanon ;-;