Code Geass Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[quina]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

The death list could likely be empty as well :/

Spoiler:

nope, there at least will be one. According to Fake O..
"Zero will give death to XXX"
(XXX is not: CC, Susaku, Cornalia)

He will definitely kill someone. If its not Euphie... its got to be one in the last battle.

[Juvyniled]

Ah, well that changes things.

It's probably not Euphemia since it would be too obvious. Though if it was Schneizel.... somehow... that would definitely be something.

[dxanato]

He maybe kill a craze Nina who after hearing Euphie plan went crazy. Lelouch was about to shoot Euphie when Nina jump in front cause she too want to kill Euphie.

[Sinestra]

Now the shit really hits the fan, I have been awaiting the announcement of the Specialized Zone from Euphie and it went over just as I expected not so good. Lulu is freakin pissed and Corniela is not very either. Schneizel basically has thrown his sister to the wolves for his own goal whatever those might be. I do think that Euphie truly wants to bring peace to the world but it takes time. On the outside yes it seems like a great idea, but one can easily argue against it. IMO taking a piece of land and saying that you can be called japanese there is an insult. Its like taking the native americans and putting them on reservations. The you have to also ask your self is peace at expense of lives really be called peace? People are already questioning her motives. Like one student said "well she does have an eleven as a lover" peace is not attained so easily.

Schneizel and Lulu both have their own plans and Euphies plan screws with Lulu's i dont think she will be killed but im sure she is getting Geassed. Euphies specialized zone will only split the nation even more and im sure Todo will not stand for it. A totally free japan or nothing at all is what i would expect him to say. This naivety of Euphies needs to solved quick or shes going to learn that even the most heartfelt choices can bring pain.

Ogi and Villetta looked good together but we all know that will not last, she will get her memory back probably next season. The whole housewife thing doesnt suit her very well but i like when her hair is down

Poor poor C.C. i have never seen her looked sadder as she watched her dream of the world greatest pizza go up in smoke.

Im not really sure but I think that Nunnlley did have some type of crush of Suzaku. Can anyone confirm this?

[Juvyniled]

I agree with most of that... but if it's insult for them to be stuck on a piece of land, which is in fact THEIR homeland, and to be called Japanese, which they ARE, then I suppose being called ELEVENS and having to earn the title of Honorary Britannian just to live life.... hmm, doesn't sound to bad compared to the former does it?

I understand what you're trying to say, but Euphemia had to start somewhere. It would be impossible for both countries just to accept the conquerer simply giving the conquered nation's country back to them. It's already difficult enough as it is.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

I agree with most of that... but if it's insult for them to be stuck on a piece of land, which is in fact THEIR homeland, and to be called Japanese, which they ARE, then I suppose being called ELEVENS and having to earn the title of Honorary Britannian just to live life.... hmm, doesn't sound to bad compared to the former does it?

Why compare? What's the point of having the cake if you can't eat it too?

It's an insult to be given permission to live in their own land, and be able to not be called a number. This is exactly the same as how Ogi was given "permission" to go to the school festival; Euphie is treating their human-rights as if they are privileges. Some sort of pink and fluffy gift from their kind master. A kennel is a kennel, you can never make it a house.

I understand what you're trying to say, but Euphemia had to start somewhere. It would be impossible for both countries just to accept the conquerer simply giving the conquered nation's country back to them. It's already difficult enough as it is.

Impossible for Euphie. Not impossible for Zero.
Euphie is offering the best deal she can give. But that doesn't mean that's the best deal the Japanese can get. That's the difference.

(That assumes her deal works at all, which it wouldn't.)

[wuabel]

Euphie's action was right to her own belief
Lulu is also right for his own rights

One thing fantastic about Code Geass is that there is no pure evil/bad side in the series, we get to see the point of view from each different characters. Hell, I think the emperor is partially right for setting the world his way. (Darwinism idealeology)

And it is also why it is so hard to predict the outcome of this series. Thats why it is so good! I really wonder how they would end this series.

P.S. To its credit, I believe gundam seed attempted this. At the end of gundam seed, the series fail to offer a conclusive solution to the conflicts. At GSD....we all know what happen...

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It's an insult to be given permission to live in their own land, and be able to not be called a number. This is exactly the same as how Ogi was given "permission" to go to the school festival; Euphie is treating their human-rights as if they are privileges. Some sort of pink and fluffy gift from their kind master. A kennel is a kennel, you can never make it a house.

So it is an insult then. Are the Japanese simply going to let their pride run their lives? No one in the show knows what Lelouch knows, so it'd be naive of them as well to assume that he'll automatically be successful. Prior to this event, they could believe in Zero as much as they wanted to; he was the only beacon of hope for them really. But given that they have a chance now, to regain rights that they would've been denied as Elevens, what do you suppose they would do, or even should do for that matter? While it's all nice and fine for us to make judgment calls on the situation, we know what they do not know, and that is the beauty in it. Self-respect is fine, but having the tangible goods over abstract matter is always better.

Impossible for Euphie. Not impossible for Zero.
Euphie is offering the best deal she can give. But that doesn't mean that's the best deal the Japanese can get. That's the difference.

(That assumes her deal works at all, which it wouldn't.)

It's all nice and easy for the rebels to make small attacks here and there, but there comes a time when the boiling point is reached. Once the Britannians are pushed over that limit, the countermeasures used won't simply be to crush the rebels; they'll use more extreme measures. Else, they'd high-tail it out of Japan. But we know that the emperor will not do that.

This is probably more extreme than it could turn out, but what is the point in regaining Japan's autonomy if only a handful of people remain?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

So it's more of an insult then. Are the Japanese simply going to let their pride run their lives? No one in the show knows what Lelouch knows, so it'd be naive of them as well to assume that he'll automatically be successful. Prior to this event, they could believe in Zero as much as they wanted to; he was the only beacon of hope for them really. But given that they have a chance now, to regain rights that they would've been denied as Elevens, what do you suppose they would do, or even should do for that matter? While it's all nice and fine for us to make judgment calls on the situation, we know what they do not know, and that is the beauty in it. Self-respect is fine, but having the tangible goods over abstract matter is always better.

Tangible goods? You mean the special zone?
Granted by a princess who is a walking joke amongst the Britannian aristocracy?

What Euphie want to grant is not tangible. There is absolutely no reason why another royal couldn't make an announcement tomorrow that the Special Zone would be dismantled. Euphie is making a promise she can't keep, but she doesn't know it. Euphie isn't a representative of the Japanese interests, and never will be. The Empire will always come first, and Euphie can't fight that.
What Zero is aiming for is tangible goods; Euphie is the one offering an abstract matter.

It's all nice and easy for the Japanese to make small attacks here and there, but there comes a time when the boiling point is reached. Once the Britannians are pushed over that limit, the countermeasures used won't simply be to crush the rebels; they'll use more extreme measures. Else, they'd high-tail it out of Japan. But we know that the emperor will not do that.

So, we are back to square 1: Empire will kill us, so we have to be good slaves.
You are offering the same argument Suzaku gave, that the Empire is invincible.

Guess what? The Empire is not invincible. And Zero is dismantling this false invincibility each and every day he continue to exist. If it bleeds, we can kill it.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

So it is an insult then. Are the Japanese simply going to let their pride run their lives?

Not everyone in the east believes the western value of "as long as you're alive, it's better off than being dead".
If being treated as sub-humans and social slaves is the alternative to fight to the end with honor, the latter option is never out of question.

And yes, I know westerners think that stupid. But a lot of us do not.
It's simply a diffrence of values.

As for the special zone... first of all, it's a secluded small area that will never cover the entire Japan.
And it's still on a leash from the empire. It's nothing but "crowd control" and no true independence would come out of it.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

What Euphie want to grant is not tangible. There is absolutely no reason why another royal couldn't make an announcement tomorrow that the Special Zone would be dismantled. Euphie is making a promise she can't keep, but she doesn't know it. Euphie isn't a representative of the Japanese interests, and never will be. The Empire will always come first, and Euphie can't fight that.
What Zero is aiming for is tangible goods; Euphie is the one offering an abstract matter.

I'll agree with you that Euphemia was most likely acting out of personal desire in naively hoping that Lelouch would come to terms with what she believes would work. Given that she went and asked for approval from Schneizel himself, I believe she acquired some form of approval; what Schneizel says on the matter to other members of the royal family is another situation that will have to be seen later. The key problem with Euphemia's plan is that she does not have the authority herself to enforce such a proposal, which is why it would likely have backfired upon her in many other possible outcomes. But it is primarily dependent on what Schneizel does.

So, we are back to square 1: Empire will kill us, so we have to be good slaves.
You are offering the same argument Suzaku gave, that the Empire is invincible.

Guess what? The Empire is not invincible. And Zero is dismantling this false invincibility each and every day he continue to exist. If it bleeds, we can kill it.

I made no such implication that the empire is invincible, I made an assessment of rationality. I do believe that Zero has more than enough ability and assistance to bring down the empire, but he's no Kira. He's not going out of his way to save lives, and he's more than willing to involve people in his conflict as necessary (though some people are subject to favoritism :/). I'm not analyzing Lelouch's situation because I already know what's going to result from his actions. I'm considering what will happen to the citizens and whether that ideal is essentially worth all that bloodshed.

Originally Posted by aohige

Not everyone in the east believes the western value of "as long as you're alive, it's better off than being dead".
If being treated as sub-humans and social slaves is the alternative to fight to the end with honor, the latter option is never out of question.

And yes, I know westerners think that stupid. But a lot of us do not.
It's simply a diffrence in value you hold and some of us hold.

While I do realize that there are a wide variety of opinions all over the world, those opinions do contrast with the citizens in the Geass reality. I do believe honor is an important ideal to many, but even then, there are still people who want to go about their lives as well. This is evident of the people in the show. Though I can only wonder, if you do believe that this proposal treats them as sub-humans, what do you describe their previous state? This is probably my personal belief and one that not many people share, but people are more likely to contribute to society and effectively change problems when they are alive than they are to when they're dead.

*On a side note from all of this*
Lelouch will have to solidify his stance on the whole matter sooner or later. Whether he is fighting for Japanese independence or fighting to bring down the empire, he can't simply just "fight for justice." If he declares himself as fighting for Japanese independence, then as people have already argued, there is a possibility that the Japanese will look to remove the Britannians from their country. If Lelouch wants them to all coexist, he's going to have to initiate another war or somehow impress that ideal onto everyone, else he and Nunnally and his friends will all be victimized.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

people are more likely to contribute to society and effectively change problems when they are alive than they are to when they're dead.

So what makes you think anyone who opposes the Empire would automatically die?

Zero is still alive, isn't he?

Survival only matters if you intend to do something with your life. Oppose Britannia means risks of death, so if you want to oppose Britannia danger is to be expected. Being alive and do nothing is no less useless than being dead.

Of course, there are people who would rather live their lives under oppression. That's their choice. But they have no right to demand that others follow their example.

Lelouch will have to solidify his stance on the whole matter sooner or later. Whether he is fighting for Japanese independence or fighting to bring down the empire, he can't simply just "fight for justice." If he declares himself as fighting for Japanese independence, then as people have already argued, there is a possibility that the Japanese will look to remove the Britannians from their country. If Lelouch wants them to all coexist, he's going to have to initiate another war or somehow impress that ideal onto everyone, else he and Nunnally and his friends will all be victimized.

Zero will fight for Justice, and it will automatically mean removal of the Empire. It doesn't actually matter if Lulu can't live in Japan anymore after it is all over; Nunnaly would be safe from assassination, and second to avenging his mum, that's all that matters.

Oh, and Zero already pointed out that he fights for Justice. Specifically, to defend those who are weak against the strong. This in itself ensures no room for victimisation, and the reason why no Britannian civilians were targeted. Thus, the ideals are already there.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

So what makes you think anyone who opposes the Empire would automatically die?

Zero is still alive, isn't he?

Survival only matters if you intend to do something with your life. Oppose Britannia means risks of death, so if you want to oppose Britannia danger is to be expected. Being alive and do nothing is no less useless than being dead.

The empire hasn't been pushed beyond their limit yet. While we see that Lelouch has much control over the situation, it isn't apparent to either side who has an upperhand in this whole ordeal (at least not prior to this event). Zero is enigma to everyone really. He saves Britannians, and he's fighting against the empire. Zero is opposing the empire, but he's also bailed them out of rather sticky situations. Who of the rebels would have done the same?

I'm not sure what you mean by "survival only matters if you intend to something with your life." Do you mean that those who are not opposing the empire are not doing anything with their life? If so, is nationalism the one and only thing that is important in their lives?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

The empire hasn't been pushed beyond their limit yet. While we see that Lelouch has much control over the situation, it isn't apparent to either side who has an upperhand in this whole ordeal (at least not prior to this event). Zero is enigma to everyone really. He saves Britannians, and he's fighting against the empire. Zero is opposing the empire, but he's also bailed them out of rather sticky situations. Who of the rebels would have done the same?

I'm not sure what you mean by "survival only matters if you intend to something with your life." Do you mean that those who are not opposing the empire are not doing anything with their life? If so, is nationalism the one and only thing that is important in their lives?

"Nationalism"?

How about "Liberty"!
http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/henry-liberty.html

Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!

Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775

[aohige]

Juvyniled, you're overlooking the fact that this proposal is not to entire Japan.
Giving special previledges to handful (several hundred thousands) of Japanese isn't the solution.
Without total independence, the nation will still suffer from social slavery and living in Ghettos.
It does not give any sort of independence to the Japanese.

Most audiences realize this, and so does Zero. Why can't you?

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by aohige

Juvyniled, you're overlooking the fact that this proposal is not to entire Japan.
Giving special previledges to handful (several hundred thousands) of Japanese isn't the solution.
Without total independence, the nation will still suffer from social slavery and living in Ghettos.
It does not give any sort of independence to the Japanese.

Most audiences realize this, and so does Zero. Why can't you?

If I am in fact mistaken about it, could you please quote something from the show, possibly a timeframe in which it was mentioned as well would help. I understand that this Region affected by the proposal isn't the entirety of Japan, but the empire has to protect the people within the country as well. This is essentially just segregation (though not through a law, but as a result). If they have an area to "work" in, is that not a decent start? What else do you suppose the empire should do then? Hand the country back to them? What of the remaining Britannians who have inhabited the country? Surely you wonder why come to this country in the first place, but it just is. If they are still being oppressed within this region, then yes it would definitely be a problem. But it appears that this ordinance allows them to run themselves. I can't simply accept that nothing good can come of this.

I'm sure Zero realizes some sort of a similar conclusion, but he is not concerned about it.

@VCV: When I was referring to establishing his ideals, I was referring more to the sense of declaring his support to a specific side.

[aohige]

It's kind of pointless to argue, since you have established yourself how you're very "empire sided" in your past arguments.
You seem to be this board's "Suzaku", if you will.
You come to defend the empire in pretty much every page of this board.
I think you give too much credit to the empire.

Special zone is, as Lulu put it in episode 21, nothing but a "day-dream" story.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

If I am in fact mistaken about it, could you please quote something from the show, possibly a timeframe in which it was mentioned as well would help. I understand that this Region affected by the proposal isn't the entirety of Japan, but the empire has to protect the people within the country as well. This is essentially just segregation (though not through a law, but as a result). If they have an area to "work" in, is that not a decent start? What else do you suppose the empire should do then? Hand the country back to them? What of the remaining Britannians who have inhabited the country? Surely you wonder why come to this country in the first place, but it just is. If they are still being oppressed within this region, then yes it would definitely be a problem. But it appears that this ordinance allows them to run themselves. I can't simply accept that nothing good can come of this.

I'm sure Zero realizes some sort of a similar conclusion, but he is not concerned about it.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I believe it was once plausible that a Special Zone can work, but it would be very, very hard. Euphie, however, made her own job impossible by declaring her intentions without any preparations whatsoever. Quite simply, Euphemia's political capabilities has been found to be next to non-existent, and as such the whole project is going to fail.

And no, the ordinance is not going to run itself, because Euphie doesn't have the authority nor the public influence to make it happen. She doesn't even know how the laws are going to work in that zone. What happens if a Britannian call a Japanese an 11 while in the Zone? Is he going to be arrested? Arrested by who? Britannian police? Is there going to be any Britannian police-force willing to do this?

@VCV: When I was referring to establishing his ideals, I was referring more to the sense of declaring his support to a specific side.

Zero supports Justice. That's the only side he is on. If 11s start to burn Britannian children alive at the stake, rest assured the BKs will punish the perpetrators most ruthlessly. This point has been hammered home again and again in his speeches. Sure, Lulu is doing this for selfish reasons, but that still doesn't undo the fact that he is still supporting Justice.

[Juvyniled]

I'm not particularly interested how people will label me. If it's debateable, then I will put it out there.

I am not arguing on behalf of the empire. I am arguing rationality. While the empire as an incarnation/entity is evil and unjustified, they have individuals among them who do not share the same sentiment. Should ALL Britannians suffer because they are associated with the empire? I understand that the Japanese are not faring so well compared to their oppressors. But simply because things are not exactly as you want them to be, does not necessarily mean that everything should turn out the way you expect it to.

I'm really arguing from an observer's standpoint. I have only countered your arguments because you have adopted the standpoint against the empire. There is always the possibility for good to come out of things.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Zero supports Justice. That's the only side he is on. If 11s start to burn Britannian children alive at the stake, rest assured the BKs will punish the perpetrators most ruthlessly. This point has been hammered home again and again in his speeches. Sure, Lulu is doing this for selfish reasons, but that still doesn't undo the fact that he is still supporting Justice.

I don't question that the Order will still oppose crimes against humanity committed by the Japanese, but how far will this "fight for justice" take him in defeating the empire?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

I'm not particularly interested how people will label me. If it's debateable, then I will put it out there.

I am not arguing on behalf of the empire. I am arguing rationality. While the empire as an incarnation/entity is evil and unjustified, they have individuals among them who do not share the same sentiment. Should ALL Britannians suffer because they are associated with the empire? I understand that the Japanese are not faring so well compared to their oppressors. But simply because things are not exactly as you want them to be, does not necessarily mean that everything should turn out the way you expect it to.

I'm really arguing from an observer's standpoint. I have only countered your arguments because you have adopted the standpoint against the empire. There is always the possibility for good to come out of things.

No, not all Britannians should suffer because they are associated with the empire. That's why Zero fight for Justice rather than "taking sides" like how you wanted.
And I throw your statements right back at you; Just because the 11s are not doing exactly what the Britannians wanted them to do, does not mean that everything should turn out the way Britannians expected to.

You see that the BK is starting a rebellion. You suggest the 11s should stop fighting for the betterment of Britannia. that makes you no better.

Thus, since we are morally equal, may the best side win. And that's exactly how Zero sees this.

I don't question that the Order will still oppose crimes against humanity committed by the Japanese, but how far will this "fight for justice" take him in defeating the empire?

All the way to the throne. Britannia Empire does not contain an ounce of Justice, thus it will fall by the hands of the defenders of Justice.