Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

It's not a question of careers. It's a question of whether you're willing to take the time to make it happen - Frontier is a case in point in that regard. However strong Hikaru's infatuation for Minmay was, he never made an effort to make it into anything more.

The scene does, however, indicate that Alto's feelings regarding Frontier and the Vajra outweighed any romantic sentiment that he harbored towards Ranka. This is a point that Ranka was coming to terms with throughout episode 20 and 21, and probably also helped precipitate her decision to leave.

And when you look at it, the focus of Alto's character was never about the pursuit of romance so much as it was about finding himself, and finding that place called home. It was just a question of who was searching for that same door.

I agree with most of this.

For one thing, Minmei wasn't truly interested in Hikaru, so SHE was the one who didn't make time for him, even on her birthday when she swore she'd stay up for him, she wouldn't let him in nor make time for him truly. SHE was the one making the relationship hard, even put her fans above him. Later, like in DYRL, when Hikaru started turning away from his infatuation and love for Minmei, she made time for him THEN. But it was hardly worth it anymore...

I always saw Alto as a simple character who had a confusing childhood due to how he was brought up. And in that simplicity, it's easy to tell that his own demons are based on how he looks at the way he was raised. He views it as a horrid experience whilst his memories of his mother are dear to him. My personal idea is that if he gave time to realize that perhaps what his father wanted was what was best for him at the time. Once Alto came of age and had truly considered options and maybe presented proof he was capable of such things, perhaps demons could've been avoided. Alto really doesn't just settle on the "who am I" or "what gender am I" rather the "who am I outside of my stage character?" This leads him to confusion because he can't seem to find the fine line that the person he is off-stage is the person he truly is. This was fixed very well in the movie when Ranka says "you are you." There, issue resolved, now let's work on the issues with your father.

Alto has never truly been geared towards romance. I feel it is slightly attached to his mother, a bit. His mother died young so he fears having a relationship and having to give it up because of death or even distrust. His relationship with both girls shows this very well, as each time one gets forward with just a push, he closes the door on them. An example would be Ep.6 with Sheryl, he starts to open the door, she gets a bit of information, then he slams it shut with another conversation. In Ep.13, Ranka starts to learn more about Alto's past in general, he almost goes into detail, then he slams the door shut with self-thought advice. It just seems to me that his unresolved issues with his mother's death have left a scar on his heart that hasn't healed, and Sheryl falling deathly ill did not help (and I mean in the healing process, not that he pitied her when I said that).

It seemed like when we talk about "who was searching for that same door," Ranka fit. Because throughout the series, we see her searching for her past, the things that made her Ranka Lee. But we don't see Sheryl really searching for the reason she is who she is, rather than to stay who she is. Alto and Ranka seem to have that same thing in common of wanting to know WHO they are and WHY they were put on this earth. Coming to terms with who they are helped them in the end, cause Ranka learned of her powers help the Vajra understand humanity and Alto learned the reason he truly wanted to fly. I think, in that sense, you should rephrase that Alto wanted "someone who could truly understand HIM."

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

Urm, I never claimed Alto was annoyed with Ranka's prattle in the 1st place.

I don't see why you are pushing this.

- Tak

Okay, then I don't get where what your original comment meant. Situations with Ranka are forced on him, and he feels obligated to help her...but you agree that he really likes Ranka a lot, and isn't annoyed by her, so he'd hang out with her anyway...which makes it not much of a forcing and not much of an obligation...yes?

[Swampstorm]

While Minmay may or may not have been interested, Hikaru never asked her for an answer either way. It's really only in actually expressing how he had felt about her, late in the series, that her own views towards him start to change. Who knows what might have happened had he simply been more direct from the outset?

We'll never know either way, but we certainly can't blame Minmay for that.

I don't think Alto ever was looking for a therapist. He solves his own problems in his own time, and his own way.

While Alto and Ranka had similar issues to resolve, their attitudes and beliefs were fundamentally at odds with each other. They both ended up trying to become something that they weren't in the process. It's not a question of whether you share the same problem, but rather the same solution.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Okay, then I don't get where what your original comment meant. Situations with Ranka are forced on him, and he feels obligated to help her...but you agree that he really likes Ranka a lot, and isn't annoyed by her, so he'd hang out with her anyway...which makes it not much of a forcing and not much of an obligation...yes?

I'm laughing at the simple fact that there's a conversation about that.

If anything, the only annoyance he showed towards anyone was both Michael and Sheryl when they both made fun of him or called him names. Otherwise, contact with all others with the exception of Yasaburou and his father (if any barely) was mutual and content. Only two people made his blood boil badly towards feeling annoyed by them. Ozma, I don't think, counts, as he was Alto's commanding officer and HAD to act demeaning to teach Alto a life lesson.

As for Ranka being forced on him, I only remember one time when Ozma begged Alto to protect her no matter what. That was it. Otherwise, in Ep.13, he felt upset that Sheryl would not come instead, but he didn't feel forced to take her. Hell, he even approached her in Griffith Park in Ep.3, went to see her in the hospital in Ep.15, and climbed up to her window in Ep.17. I doubt he finds her annoying or feels forced to do ANY of those things, Tak.

As for obligation: don't get me started. Alto took it upon himself to protect her and others' opinions be damned. Brera made it very clear that Alto should not concern himself with Ranka but he went and did so anyway of his own volition.

I think, what you should do for this particular argument, Tak, is retrace what you've said on the forum and rethink about this topic, because unless you give conclusive evidence, you are making us look down on a character who already starts off closed-off from those around him and make it seem like he's selfish and conceited to everyone, including Sheryl.

I think Yot-chan would agree with me here that Alto never verbally nor physically showed any signs of annoyance with Ranka's behavior. He only spurred her on with his actions and comments, which is his natural talent if you've actually paid attention to his conversations with both Michael and Ozma.

If anyone showed annoyance to Ranka, it'd have to be Ozma at times, and that's only because he worries about her constantly.

So once again, prove your point with evidence, otherwise, I'm gonna shut you down by telling you - with a wall of text - every Alto and Ranka moment and why we AruRan fans love them so fucking much, because if it's one thing they have in common: they're friends because they WANT to be.

---

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

While Alto and Ranka had similar issues to resolve, their attitudes and beliefs were fundamentally at odds with each other. They both ended up trying to become something that they weren't in the process. It's not a question of whether you share the same problem, but rather the same solution.

That still throws Sheryl out the window, because she didn't find that "same solution" either. And actually, Ranka's beliefs were not far off from Alto's if you look at the fact that in Ep.23, he says "that's what I'm here for, to fight and protect." That's what Ranka wanted to do as well: "protect." Maybe not seeming like Frontier at the time, but Ai-kun and others as well. And, part of me thinks with the flashes to Nanase before she left regards that Ranka felt like leaving to protect Nanase, after Ep.20 revealed she was a trigger for the Vajra. (But, that's just an opinion based on the fact only Nanase and her house were shown, not Klan or Sheryl.)

And actually, Alto didn't share the same problem as Ranka. She had amnesia, so she was out to discover who she was. Alto, who doesn't have amnesia, couldn't figure out who he was, which led to confusion within himself and gender disorder in the mind. It's not that they shared a similar road, it's that Ranka wanted to reform the bond with her past and therefore her family whilst Alto also, in his own way, wanted to patch up his relationship with his family.

[raile]

I have no real interest in using walls of text, but I will say this:

You cannot doubt the friendship between the Frontier trio. Despite all bullshitting and actions, that's one thing that cannot be denied. Sure, Alto would have been willing to plug a missile at Ranka should it have come to that, but it's not like he really wanted to.

But on the issues of romance, well you all know how I feel ...
I never saw how Sheryl was a match for Alto until episode 6 (yes the attraction was there in episode 5, but Sheryl seemed whimsical, for the lack of better words), where I thought "heeey now~". Kinda like Misa, where I would have never imagined that she would be interested/involved with Hikaru.

I guess this is one of the reasons why I always loved the Macross series.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by raile

I have no real interest in using walls of text, but I will say this:

You cannot doubt the friendship between the Frontier trio. Despite all bullshitting and actions, that's one thing that cannot be denied. Sure, Alto would have been willing to plug a missile at Ranka should it have come to that, but it's not like he really wanted to.

But on the issues of romance, well you all know how I feel ...
I never saw how Sheryl was a match for Alto until episode 6 (yes the attraction was there in episode 5, but Sheryl seemed whimsical, for the lack of better words), where I thought "heeey now~". Kinda like Misa, where I would have never imagined that she would be interested/involved with Hikaru.

I guess this is one of the reasons why I always loved the Macross series.

Well, with what I said above, I'm not denying the Frontier trio's friendship, rather Tak is trying to say that Alto felt obligated or forced to be friends with her (or anyone for that matter) and that he was truly annoyed by her (and others too). But, to me, that just comes off as his character (or personality). He doesn't take others' small problems seriously, but to Tak, that reads off as he's annoyed with that person. Honestly, I think that's just how Alto is, and that'll never change.

[raile]

What? That's part of friendship, annoyance. We can all be annoyed with our friends, but that comes naturally with any relationship package.

Alto is a rather snarky guy. He gets annoyed at everyone. Be it Michel, Luca, Sheryl, Ranka, pretty much anyone. Nobody has been given an exception from his grouchiness.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by raile

What? That's part of friendship, annoyance. We can all be annoyed with our friends, but that comes naturally with any relationship package.

Alto is a rather snarky guy. He gets annoyed at everyone. Be it Michel, Luca, Sheryl, Ranka, pretty much anyone. Nobody has been given an exception from his grouchiness.

Exactly what I was saying -- it's his personality.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Okay, then I don't get where what your original comment meant. Situations with Ranka are forced on him, and he feels obligated to help her...but you agree that he really likes Ranka a lot, and isn't annoyed by her, so he'd hang out with her anyway...which makes it not much of a forcing and not much of an obligation...yes?

Its forced upon Alto because the situations come to him. He did not ask for it. Its very simple, don't over-read it.

- Tak

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by Tak

Its forced upon Alto because the situations come to him. He did not ask for it. Its very simple, don't over-read it.

- Tak

And again, Alto approached Ranka in Ep.3, Ep.15, and Ep.17 of his own volition, so you point is very moot. Those situations, Alto allowed himself to create them. And he wasn't annoyed at any of them.

So you over-read the situations you are stating your thesis from. It was obvious to all fans, even AruSherri fans, that Alto and Ranka at least had a mutual thing about them: they were friends because they wanted to be. Alto was not annoyed or otherwise forced to become friends with her. He just took things as they came, and if he did seem annoyed at times, that was his personality.

How about you reanalyze Alto's character before continuing this further?

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Tak

Its forced upon Alto because the situations come to him. He did not ask for it. Its very simple, don't over-read it.

- Tak

I've said this once before, but...

...the same thing can be said for his interactions with Sheryl (until a point in the later episodes which I won't be specifying).

Sure, one way you could read Alto's actions in episode 19 (where he returns to the Saotome residence to check up on Sheryl) and episode 22 as being motivated by him simply wanting to see her.

However, it's also possible to argue that Alto might not have made the effort had Michel and Klan not alerted him to the fact that Sheryl was hiding something incredibly important from him.

I'm not trying to say that the first argument is wrong or that it is less convincing than the second (or vice versa). But it's important to recognise that it IS an argument, and that there are other arguments that are supported by the show. (Though I'm certainly NOT saying that all arguments/theses/suppositions etc are supported by the show)

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

And again, Alto approached Ranka in Ep.3, Ep.15, and Ep.17 of his own volition, so you point is very moot. Those situations, Alto allowed himself to create them.

Uh, what? LOL

Episode 3 was Alto curious about who was singing, and thus bumping into Ranka on accident. Hardly him actively seeking her out. Try again.

Episode 15 was where Ranka tagged along because of her pathetic obsession, and no evidence to suggest Alto ever asked her greenness to come. Hell, Ranka probably tagged along because she just wanted to show Sheryl how peanut butter & jelly she & Alto had gotten. Try again #2.

Episode 17 was doing what he does as a member of the SMS, and has nothing to do with him seeking Ranka out. Grace was using Ranka as a prototype weapon, not Alto, not Ranka. Try again #3.

So what is this derp about his own volition? He hardly created any of the aforementioned situations.

...

- Tak

[Tak]

Originally Posted by karice67

I've said this once before, but...

...the same thing can be said for his interactions with Sheryl (until a point in the later episodes which I won't be specifying).

Certainly, there is no need to deny that. Sheryl is a forceful person at times.

Originally Posted by karice67

Sure, one way you could read Alto's actions in episode 19 (where he returns to the Saotome residence to check up on Sheryl) and episode 22 as being motivated by him simply wanting to see her.

Alto of course, also wanted to check how Sheryl was feeling in episode 15 without her asking. As you mentioned, he also made an effort to see her after learning what had happened from Klan & Michel. The importance here to me, however, involved breaking his own personal taboo. Don't forget that. He never taken that extra step with Ranka.

- Tak

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Tak

Alto of course, also wanted to check how Sheryl was feeling in episode 15 without her asking.

Because she had been, you know, incredibly ill.

Originally Posted by Tak

The importance here to me, however, involved breaking his own personal taboo. Don't forget that. He never taken that extra step with Ranka.

- Tak

Alto was never put in a situation with Ranka where he had to. Who's to say what would have happened if Sheryl and Ranka's positions in those few episodes had been reversed, i.e. if Ranka been the sick one...?

Though I don't really want to talk about the what ifs. My contention is that it wasn't simply a matter of 'they fit each other best', rather that circumstances played a big part in the outcome of this particular love triangle.

Spoiler for slight 2nd movie spoiler:

You can argue differently for the movie, but not, IMHO, for the series.

[MichiNekoChan]

woah woah, and here I thought we had gotten PAST the point of "Tak never mentioned anything about Alto being frustrated/annoyed/angry"

What the hell brought this back out again?


So as to get this straight FOR ME (and/or everyone): Alto was forced into situations with Ranka, however he never displayed any anger or annoyances (to our knowledge) about said situations.

Right?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by MichiNekoChan

So as to get this straight FOR ME (and/or everyone): Alto was forced into situations with Ranka, however he never displayed any anger or annoyances (to our knowledge) about said situations.

Right?

Yeah.

- Tak

[Hollowgolem]

You know the one coupling nobody can disagree with?

Alto x The Sky

There. True love. D'awwwwwww, indeed.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by Hollowgolem

You know the one coupling nobody can disagree with?

Alto x The Sky

There. True love. D'awwwwwww, indeed.

Yes!

I agree fully with that without a doubt!

[vansonbee]

Originally Posted by Hollowgolem

You know the one coupling nobody can disagree with?

Alto x The Sky

There. True love. D'awwwwwww, indeed.

THATS IT! YOU AND ME CRAZY CUSSING DEBATE OVER THE SKY! NOW!

Will miss the Ranka charades...

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by vansonbee

THATS IT! YOU AND ME CRAZY CUSSING DEBATE OVER THE SKY! NOW!

Will miss the Ranka charades...

Hey, that's mean; I didn't start the last argument.

Besides, I still love the sky as much as Alto, but at the ratio of airplanes crashing lately, if I ever fly, it has to be the most secure flight ever. I love the sky but I'm afraid of heights...