2009-09-30, 21:21 | Link #1001 | |
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I believe working with either numbers or people, in terms of denying witches, gives you the same result. In the moment it was said no 19th or 18th person existed, the player would normally be lead to assume that there cannot be any people in Rokkenjima other than the 17 we've seen.
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Yes, but you're missing my point. Bern treated those scenarios as kakeras. They were in the sea of kakera.
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2009-09-30, 23:49 | Link #1004 | ||||
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To state that a gamemaster cannot actually move the pieces you need to state that Bern and Lambda lied. Quote:
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There's only one thing that matters. Are they real human beings? Do they suffer? Are they dying for real? If the answer to all these questions is "yes" then there's no excuse. Quote:
Well at least that's what happens with real authors and they narrators. If you think Umineko differs from this then the analogy doesn't work anymore. If you watch a movie in kakera A and a different movie in kakera B, Bern can travel both kakera and see both movies. However the movie themselves aren't the kakera, they are just inside them. In other words it is possible that what Bern showed to Battler were the games the Battlers from other kakera played.
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2009-09-30, 23:54 | Link #1005 | |
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You're basically saying there are several kakeras, are you not?
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2009-10-01, 00:03 | Link #1006 |
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I have never said Kakera do not exist °°, the ability to travel through kakera is Bernkastel's power, however I'm doubting that Beatrice has that power as well. Rather I think that Beatrice creates the games inside her own world. In other words whereas Bernkastel can travel infinite kakera and chose the one she likes, Beatrice can't travel at all, however she can create games using pieces taken from the real world (or pieces created by witch of origins).
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2009-10-01, 00:11 | Link #1007 |
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Well, just to clarify, I was never saying that Beatrice could travel between kakeras either. Haha...
Anyway, my point was that the worlds Beatrice created were treated like kakeras. Her ability is supposed to be Endless Realization, after all.
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2009-10-01, 00:21 | Link #1008 |
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well it is a possibility... as it is possible that Beatrice creates the games and then the Bernkastel finds kakera that perfectly match them XD
this would explain Ange and that 1998... However this is getting confusing. There is also the possibility that Bernkastel can travel even inside fictional kakera °°;;; like all the alternative scenarios of the X-men! maybe I should stop thinking...
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2009-10-01, 00:49 | Link #1009 | |
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In my theory, the author is limited by many rules, including the gold text, the laws of physics, the state of the world before the game starts, and simple cause and effect. They can only "choose" kakera which satisfy those strict conditions, so every single game has to have some basis in reality at the deepest levels.
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2009-10-01, 00:50 | Link #1010 |
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Bern is a visitor into Beato's universe. "Universes", which voyagers can travel to, which have kakera. The kakeras are worlds, but a witch (Beato) can look through them. Beato probably chose a kakera, either used it as it was or messed with it (magic) At least, that's the understanding I got when they were talking about voyagers...
Things like gold text and maybe the red eliminate possible kakera (because they are denied), but the sea is infinite. |
2009-10-01, 01:03 | Link #1011 | |
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2009-10-01, 03:21 | Link #1012 | |
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Bern and Lambda will say anything. They're inherently untrustworthy. |
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2009-10-01, 07:27 | Link #1014 | ||
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If you look at how Beatrice described her work behind the games, you'll notice that she always implied such a control over the gameboard. This kind of interpretation affects the role of narrator. In your case the narrator has a will of his own (although manipulated by the author), while in my case the narrator is just an alias of the author's will (although the author can willingly make it so the narrator doesn't know the whole truth). I guess the difference is very subtle, but still (imho) substantial. EDIT: well I guess the main difference is that with the kakera interpretation you can only choose between "possible" kakera, and you are bound to reality rules. while with the creation interpretation you are only bound to literary novel rules and you can insert even things that are not possible in the real world. Of course your interpretation still allow for fake scenarios to be displayed as "fantasies" of the real persons involved. My interpretation gives a more direct explanation. Right now I cannot say which interpretation is right, I think there's pro and cons with both of them. The pro of my interpretation is that it is consistent with what we are shown (see my response to Renall below), no need to think that Beatrice Lambda and Bern are lying. The cons is that, as you said, if everything that we have seen is a fictional world in its entirety, what's the point? Well I think there's still a way to make it worthy if there are precise rules to make it so the fictional world is relevant to the real world, but your point is still valid. Your interpretation has the advantage of mediating with reality and the fiction it's been shown under our eyes. However this kind of approach becomes hard and harder each episode. The explanations to all these strange events become more and more convoluted. In the beginning you explained it by saying "everything that has magic events involved is fake". Then by episode4 this explanation doesn't work anymore, so even scenes that aren't suspicious at all can be fake. In the ep5 the metaworld and the gameboard are so intertwined that you can't tell them apart. Erika who is supposed to be the detective can talk about knox rules as if they apply to the real world, she claims to have detective rights, despite her being a little girl, and she can even call Bernkastel's name inside the gameboard as a piece. In other words at this point you can't even assume the existence of (at least) one reliable narrator, which was a cardinal point of the anti-fantasy approach so far. Your theory is in the end a version of the classic anti-fantasy approach who has reached an higher level of complexity in order to explain all these things, because the old approach doesn't work anymore. Quote:
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2009-10-01, 12:12 | Link #1015 | |
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So, in other words, Battler has the ability to solve the epitaph without Bern's interference. It's also "in character" for him to show mercy to Dlanor (and whiteknight for Beato).
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2009-10-01, 13:37 | Link #1016 | ||
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However, I believe the author can create scenarios and all that stuff by using the gold text, though they have to follow all the previously determined rules. Quote:
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Edit: Just to clarify another thing, the last line in my meta theory post is out of date. Assuming that the gold truth is the basis for the Game Master's red, there does not need to be a single "true" world, and some truths can become falsehoods if new gold text is added which contradicts those truths.
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2009-10-01, 23:17 | Link #1017 | |
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There was also Shannon looking all happy around the servants, even after George's death.
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2009-10-01, 23:20 | Link #1018 | |
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2009-10-01, 23:34 | Link #1020 |
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I'd like the idea of Shannon actually loving George and having another reason why she's not really showing any signs of grieving. (Like perhaps, she really believes that she'll be reunited with him sometime... like in the Golden Land or in the next game... which, if she DOES remember past occurrences like it was lightly hinted at before would make her lack of emotion towards his death make sense.)
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