2011-08-05, 14:40 | Link #23623 | |||
Senior Member
|
Quote:
And I wouldn't say I don't trust Clair's confession. I fully trust the fact that this was actually how Yasu experienced the events on Rokkenjima. I found it especially interesting how the depiction of the witch Beatrice in the Tea Party was so absolutely different from how we experienced her in the games when Tôya imagined her. Quote:
(b) That is not how I read her relation to Beatrice at all. While she started out as this role-model figure, she developed into something like a last escape pretty quickly. And in the way she depicted her in EP2 (and also the hints given in EP1) I'd say she's actually trying to get rid of Beatrice and is actually blaming that part of herself for wanting to do something like that. Quote:
She actually antagonized Beatrice mostly through Shannon and Kanon, as to make clear that those two would do anything to fight against the witch...even though they might be too weak and give in in the end (->EP2 Kanon). At least Shannon dies in a way that it seems impossible for her to be the culprit both times. |
|||
2011-08-05, 16:53 | Link #23624 | |||||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
A common and simple example is that George plans to kill the whole family to be with her and is pressuring Shannon to cooperate, and if she were to stop him everything would come out into the open and then she'd have nothing and no one. Quote:
Though "Beatrice being the part of herself that wants to do X that she doesn't want to do" leans towards Hollywood MPD shenanigans. Let's not go there. The point is Beatrice was an effigy of her hopes and dreams, to be fulfilled or sacrificed. Beatrice is a personification of her heart in a very heavy sense. Quote:
Beatrice is antagonized by Shannon and Kanon only when Beatrice is being portrayed as an 100% evil supernatural bitch who rode like a badass out of hell. Which isn't true. Once the cat's out of the bag they're nothing but respectful and friendly to her. Fancy that.
__________________
|
|||||
2011-08-05, 18:05 | Link #23625 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
It doesn't need to have a Gamemaster. It has a Reader, which is much harder to deal with because you have to watch out for their mistakes and bad assumptions. Bern even says in EP8 that there are countless ways for a reader to give false information without telling outright lies.
__________________
|
2011-08-05, 18:23 | Link #23626 | |||||
Senior Member
|
Quote:
She never lied, she even said in EP7 about her truth that Ange didn't even let her finish that sentence and let it be...but the only thing she corrected in EP8 was that the truth doesn't limit itself to that which she saw in EP7. For me that implied very much that we simply saw a limited perspective of the events, but it's not THE truth. It's like saying "The Nazis were murderers"...of course it's true, but it's only a facette of THE truth. Quote:
Quote:
It also doesn't really explain Eva-survival over the survival of other people...because why should she tell Eva of all people? George uber-culprit could explain that, but it would on the other hand not explain why she would help him if she was actually still drawn to Battler. I think many things don't really add up if she was actually covering for somebody on the island from the start. Quote:
I would probably be leaning towards flicking the switch as well... You say it's "lol the bitch's crazy"...I find it rather easy to understand such a notion. Having a fault that might make you hated by everybody you care about, not having a future, not being able to have children...she is basically bereaved of any probable chances. The only small glimpse is actually George...well and Jessica in a way. Actually the more I think about the more it reminds me of two Yokomizo Seishi stories. Quote:
-------------------------- By the way, when I was thinking about Jessica/Kanon one interesting thing popped up in my mind. Basically Yasu is gripping for any straw that she finds in terms of obtaining love...and that brings me to a point why Kanon is important. Basically what we were told is that not Kanon fell in love with Jessica, actually Jessica approached Kanon about it. It was the same with Shannon and George, but Kanon was refusing it quite actively. Thinking along that path you could argue that while Yasu was ready for George's love (because she always lived as a woman) she wasn't ready for Jessica's. Still it remains a possible way towards happiness, as in the end it doesn't really matter which sex she ends up with (being broken down there and all)...so she is at least considering it. This would also explain why Kanon is always destined to loose the duel of love. And before you say it AT, yes, it is conjecture, of course. But it's not baseless conjecture as we learned throughout the stories that it was the cousins who approached Shannon and Kanon, not the other way around. And it's not like it isn't a staple in mystery fiction (at least Japanese ones)... |
|||||
2011-08-05, 18:55 | Link #23627 | |||||
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
|
Quote:
Quote:
We already discussed this in ep VII thread over and over. Yes, she was going to kill people if the roulette said so. Is it crazy? Yes. But you need to place things into a fucking CONTEXT. It's not like Yasu eats babies at night. Although our opinions diverge on some things, haguruma explained in the post above why she's so fucked up and conflicted. (but then again, we already discusses this before) Also, in the end she didn't even kill people. Of course, even if she was PLANNING to follow the roulette she didn't carry out the murders and ended up covering for the craaaazy Ushiromiya. Then she became a witch and meet Meta-Battler... and the rest is history. Is it to hard to understand why is she so pitiable? Of course if everything is a story Tohya wrote, Meta-Beatrice isn't even a proper character, Shkanontrice died like a bitch and amnesia Battler ended up writing her dialogs. Ugh... Quote:
Quoting R07 ""the story of how one girl, through love and madness, was able to imagine an incident on this scale." That's all. Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by FirstTwilight; 2011-08-05 at 20:06. |
|||||
2011-08-05, 19:52 | Link #23628 | |||
Senior Member
|
Quote:
Ryûkishi is in desperate need of a competent editor, but most authors are. Ever heard of Kyôgoku Natsuhiko (he wrote Môryô no Hako which was made into a film and an anime)? I'm not even astonished anymore when his twitter says that he's happy how he managed to write something with less than a 1000 pages. His stories are great, but even his editor is powerless against how much side-information he crams into his stories. Umineko could have at least been made a little better...but who knows, maybe it wasn't even his idea to include all those things I don't like...I don't know his team. Quote:
But everybody can see that as he or she wants...it's the way it was imagined anyway.... Quote:
Yasu merely pushed her love for Battler into her subconscious, which is where Beatrice is. She merely said, if there should actually be something like a miracle I might come back to you, but for now I have to let it go and become happy on another path. That's her problem, she left too many pathes open and this is why Battler's return for her was so painful. If she really had created another being who loved Battler it wouldn't even have bothered Shannon...but it obviously did, because she knew that her love was on the verge of resurfacing from the moment she knew about his return. This is also why even the Beatrice who holds Battler's love must vanish after the trial of love...and why she was drawn into it in the first place. Thank you...I know that from somewhere, I just wasn't sure if it was that or something more. But the part about Bern is actually how I perceived her from the moment I read Saikoroshi and she appeared for the first time in Umineko. |
|||
2011-08-05, 20:25 | Link #23629 | ||||||||||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
That's definitely not reading, since it's an altering of the 'text', not an interpretation. What else do we call it but some form of Gamemastering? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The main idea is that regardless of what she actually could have done, Yasu is convinced that she can't do anything and should leave it up to fate; which is consistent with her character. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
A context that includes that this person is too cowardly, unsure of herself, and indecisive to make a phonecall, write a letter, or even speak her mind. How is she going to kill eighteen fucking people, wipe the blood off, and walk back into a room with a smile on her face as she feigns innocence? The problem is no one can provide an answer to this, and Ryukishi didn't even fucking bother. So one way or another we have a goddamn plothole. The Martyr theory atleast keeps in mind every passage of the text instead of ignoring parts of it. Quote:
The funny thing is that quote does nothing to support your position anymore than it does mine. Of course Yasu "IMAGINED" this huge incident! She wrote her message bottles as a confession, warning, and coverup for the horrible crime that George commited and she felt guilty for not being able to stop. loliwin. Quote:
But otherwise, I agree. Yasu is not written as if she has any sort of DID, but Ryukishi seems to insinuate that he thinks she does, which means he's a fucking shitty writer not just because he's using the condition wrong but because his Word of God doesn't match his fiction. That would be like if JK Rowling's "Dumbledore is Gay" quote ran counter to a scene in Harry Potter where Dumbledore was having a wild sex-and-cocaine party with seven big-breasted witch hookers. Quote:
__________________
|
||||||||||
2011-08-05, 20:35 | Link #23630 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2011-08-05, 22:06 | Link #23632 | ||||
Senior Member
|
Quote:
While I also see the potential in George to murder (which is probably the reason why he was killed both in EP3 and 4) based on his development during the whole series as an ass who would sacrifice his whole family for his own desires, I don't think Yasu would have covered for that, especially if she was able to kill him for that. In that case I'd rather go for a Battler culprit approach, because that would be something that she might have anticipated and covered for. Especially because his assured survival generates a need for a cover-up. Quote:
I think it's no accident that in each Episode Kanon and Shannon have to die in the course of the story and why Kanon becomes Beatrice's furniture in EP2. Quote:
I wouldn't say that the feelings in Beatrice are more honest. It's the problem that she can't accept her love towards George as true, even so far that she considers going for a groupie like Jessica in exchange. It is this misconception that drives her into her idea of the roulette. Shannon is as true as Beatrice (and Kanon isn't as true as those) and that is why there is a battle, because she doesn't know which one is "true". Quote:
|
||||
2011-08-05, 22:49 | Link #23633 | |||||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
The Message Bottles aren't necessarily, and probably aren't, Yasu's "plans", but possible scenarios of how things can go down, possibly implying she wrote them before the incident (given conceits like making herself the culprit if she isn't, etc). Quote:
I'd say it's more 50/30/20 on the Beato/Sayo/Kanon scale though. George didn't get no meta-uplift, yo. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
|||||
2011-08-06, 00:57 | Link #23638 | ||||||
Senior Member
|
Quote:
But that of course depends largely on the personal interpretation of Yasu. Quote:
Quote:
And for the others... Gohda is carrying out orders, it's pretty imaginable in EP4 that he was working together with Kumasawa to watch the hostages. Kumasawa is killed by the stake of envy in both narratives written by Yasu...which could imply that she suspected her of actually lusting after the fortune herself. Nanjô is marked with the stake of sloth in those...which could show is absolute willingness to let everything happen as long as he is payed by the Ushiromiya's. And Maria...let's accept it, she is not that much of an innocent girl. She is actually pretty scarred by those events and it's at least imaginable by Yasu and Tôya that she has an urge to hurt others. And even though we still have to remember that she never kills Maria with evil intent, she always "lays her to rest". I think by that we can assume that Yasu's mind is as warped that she actually believes that death is an option when the world offers you nothing else. Which would also explain why flicking the switch is an option at all. Quote:
Every kind of love starts out as a form of compensation but quickly turns into something different. You enter a relationship because you don't want to be alone, that's how I see it. Love is something pretty dirty...that's why I kinda like Umineko. Ryûkishi himself even said that while at the beginning George might have been nothing but a replacement, the very fact that Shannon existed in the way she did shows that she developed honest feelings for him. Quote:
The fact that she told him is pretty indicative of the fact that he actually remembered...the question is at which point. Either she already had become the "murderous Beatrice" and could do nothing more than let him and Eva escape...or her plan actually did go wrong at all ends (which I suspect) and even though she found out Battler loved her people used what she had prepared for the tragedy that occured. She or anybody else could have only flipped the switch on the 5th, because even in Tôya's narratives there is always also the 5th. That means the earliest point when the switch can be activated is the very second when Yasu let's the roulette decide, which is midnight from the 4th to the 5th. Quote:
|
||||||
2011-08-06, 01:10 | Link #23639 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||
2011-08-06, 01:39 | Link #23640 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|