Character Discussion - Kallen

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by geewhiz

And now that i think about it, the fact that you have in the past glorified the BK as truer "heroes" relative to everyone else, is in this context quite silly since we're discussing the fact that at the time - during and immediately prior to the betrayal - Lelouch's goal was the liberation of Japan and it's the upper echelons of the BK who are exposed as fools and hypocrites for falling so easily for Schneizel's deception. Even that kind of shock and awe session is too surreal for even the CG universe, yet the staff and writers wrote it as they did to showcase the incredible hypocrisy and foolishness of the BK's leaders in such a way that only Kallen was left to defend him.

in the past i pointed out that IN THE FINAL BATTLE the black knights were the only good guys left
and i distinctily said that not all of them fit the definition of "hero" (i said only those who were NOT part of the betrayal fit)
that means, kallen xing-ke, kaguya, and anyone else who is not part of the betrayal

as for the "hypocrisy" of the black knights, they are only hypocrites in the sense that they trade him for japan
they accuse him of treating them as pawns, and then doing the same thing to him
if they simply turned on him and killed him because "he needed to be stopped" they wouldnt be hypocrites at all
they would be perfectly reasonable people, who just found out that their leader is a monster, and seek to bring him to justice for his many crimes (against japan)

and for the record, kallen upon finding out that Lelouch has a geass, also confronted him at gun point with the same question that the black knights did
"did he use his geass to make me follow him"
its the response ANYONE would have when finding out someone they follow has mind control powers

[geewhiz]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

in the past i pointed out that IN THE FINAL BATTLE the black knights were the only good guys left

in a situation that they created via total blockheadedness.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and i distinctily said that not all of them fit the definition of "hero" (i said only those who were NOT part of the betrayal fit)
that means, kallen xing-ke, kaguya, and anyone else who is not part of the betrayal

i don't remember you specifically addressing Tohdoh (maybe u did) - hero or not? curious.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

as for the "hypocrisy" of the black knights, they are only hypocrites in the sense that they trade him for japan
they accuse him of treating them as pawns, and then doing the same thing to him
if they simply turned on him and killed him because "he needed to be stopped" they wouldnt be hypocrites at all
they would be perfectly reasonable people, who just found out that their leader is a monster, and seek to bring him to justice for his many crimes (against japan)

they'd lose all credibility. the only smoking gun they had was the Geass Cult Massacre and for that alone they'd probably confront him in a milder manner, methinks. they only did the whole weapons-trained-on-him-with-giant-spotlight-in-middle-of-large-room because of the weight of Schneizel's accusations.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and for the record, kallen upon finding out that Lelouch has a geass, also confronted him at gun point with the same question that the black knights did
"did he use his geass to make me follow him"
its the response ANYONE would have when finding out someone they follow has mind control powers

too bad she had to wait a whole year and help him return as zero just so she could get an opportunity to to hold him at gunpoint in private. That put a small dent in the reasonableness of her motivations for a brief moment.

I am pissed at the staff tho for creating the KallenxLelouch tension, making them close accomplices and then damn near a couple (recall their conversation when Kallen 'fell' on Lelouch episode 9) before yanking them apart and having Lelouch begin to mindfuck her solely because he cares about her. It was just too damn weird.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by geewhiz

in a situation that they created via total blockheadedness.

actually, lelouch created the situation by conquering japan for no good reason
which is THE REASON why they were the only "good guys" left in that battle
they were the only ones who didnt have some kind of a villainous master-plan that intended to bring world peace through mass murder
they didnt choose to be part of the conflict, they were dragged into it

i don't remember you specifically addressing Tohdoh (maybe u did) - hero or not? curious.

i also didnt name chiba, minami, sugiyama and tamaki by name
i DID however say "all those who were NOT part of the betrayal, and named THEM
as far as i'm concerned, is grouped with the former and not the later

they'd lose all credibility. the only smoking gun they had was the Geass Cult Massacre and for that alone they'd probably confront him in a milder manner, methinks. they only did the whole weapons-trained-on-him-with-giant-spotlight-in-middle-of-large-room because of the weight of Schneizel's accusations.

"accusations" is the wrong words really
how about "evidence"

too bad she had to wait a whole year and help him return as zero just so she could get an opportunity to to hold him at gunpoint in private. That put a small dent in the reasonableness of her motivations for a brief moment.

not sure what you ment
please elaborate

I am pissed at the staff tho for creating the KallenxLelouch tension, making them close accomplices and then damn near a couple (recall their conversation when Kallen 'fell' on Lelouch episode 9) before yanking them apart and having Lelouch begin to mindfuck her solely because he cares about her. It was just too damn weird.

join the club
nothing about the last arc was well handled

[azul120]

The problem was the BKs buying into the evidence a little too easily, at least after Ohgi and Villetta walked in.

[geewhiz]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

actually, lelouch created the situation by conquering japan for no good reason

no, i meant in the sense that lelouch was driven to do what he did in Turns 20-21 as a result of the BK's total ineptitude.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

"accusations" is the wrong words really
how about "evidence"

fine; my point still stands.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

not sure what you ment
please elaborate

i meant one of kallen's sole MO's it seems to help restore Lelouch's memory was so that she could pull a gun on him and ask him a question. I wouldn't call that devotion; depending on his answer she really coulda killed him.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by geewhiz

no, i meant in the sense that lelouch was driven to do what he did in Turns 20-21 as a result of the BK's total ineptitude.

Which also led to Zero Requiem, since Lelouch was already past the Despair Event Horizon.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and for the record, kallen upon finding out that Lelouch has a geass, also confronted him at gun point with the same question that the black knights did
"did he use his geass to make me follow him"
its the response ANYONE would have when finding out someone they follow has mind control powers

Except the situation is different.

Kallen's question was "did you?". The Black Knights jumped to "you did," with both Lelouch and Kallen. Kallen gave him the chance to explain himself, the others tried and convicted him (and her) without giving him any such chance.

[Aquaman OS]

It's debatable if they really would have killed Kallen too. They just seemed like they were trying to intimidate her to get out of the way (they did let her stay with the Order without questioning her afterwards after all) Had she stayed with him they might not have opened fire though they probably would have had she grabbed him and tried to bunnygirl flip them out of there (though Rolo probably would have saved them in that case). But of course Lelouch didn't want to be saved at that point.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

It's debatable if they really would have killed Kallen too. They just seemed like they were trying to intimidate her to get out of the way (they did let her stay with the Order without questioning her afterwards after all) Had she stayed with him they might not have opened fire though they probably would have had she grabbed him and tried to bunnygirl flip them out of there (though Rolo probably would have saved them in that case). But of course Lelouch didn't want to be saved at that point.

They couldn't have known that she knew about Lelouch or Geass, so to accuse her of it isn't so much intimidation as it was jumping to conclusions. If she had stayed, they'd have never gotten her to move without killing her, and to even use her as bait like that would carry the implication that they were willing to do it.

They let her stay because she abandoned Lelouch. That act allowed him to save her and deflect any suspicion they had about her. Not that it helped, since she had to jump through a ton of hoops to escort Lelouch in Turn 22.

[SonOfHeaven]

Perhaps old news. My friend sent me an link about the staff selling an limited amount of Guren key pendants at that birthday event.

http://www.geass.jp/event/goods.html

Wish I could get one.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

Perhaps old news. My friend sent me an link about the staff selling an limited amount of Guren key pendants at that birthday event.

http://www.geass.jp/event/goods.html

Wish I could get one.

Add that to my list of cool japanese things I will never get.

[bladeofdarkness]

thats pretty damn cool
too bad it costs an arm and a leg

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

thats pretty damn cool
too bad it costs an arm and a leg

After or before inputting cost of plane ticket there? Hahaha

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by geewhiz

i meant one of kallen's sole MO's it seems to help restore Lelouch's memory was so that she could pull a gun on him and ask him a question. I wouldn't call that devotion; depending on his answer she really coulda killed him.

kallen is completely devoted to what she believes deserves her devotion
and hence, reacts very badly to betrayal
at that point, lelouch had deceived her from the start about who he is and what he was fighting for
her response is what you'd expect from her

even the director described her as such
"if she was your lover, she'd never cheat on you, but if you cheated on her, she'd never forgive you either"

she states it herself in ep 22, that she was lost after finding out that lelouch was zero
and that she regained her faith in him after watching him fight

@bladeofdarkness
i forgot about that one

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@bladeofdarkness
i forgot about that one

You're addressing yourself?

[bladeofdarkness]

holy crap
i ment Paladinoras

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

holy crap
i ment Paladinoras

Yeah, I know who meant. But still, blade you dope

[geewhiz]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

But still, blade you dope

Meant as an adjective and a verb!!!! (*bold emphasis mine!)

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by geewhiz

Meant as an adjective and a verb!!!! (*bold emphasis mine!)

LOL, actually I was going for the noun but that works too.

Hmm, we should probably lay off the chit chat.

[revival]

Relevant to the thread baby : /koshimizu epicness+kalulu kind of canon, ff

http://community.livejournal.com/cod...s/1513500.html

The event opened with Lelouch's death scene, i.e. Suzaku stabbing Lelouch and Kallen screaming Lelouch, which lead into Hitomi singing Stories.

too much of a canon air or WHAT?