2006-05-24, 17:35 | Link #1081 | |
Banned
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2006-05-24, 17:35 | Link #1082 |
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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Nara, pay attention to the next eps. preview for each and every episode. Unlike most other shows, it is crucial to your understanding for the story. Basically, whatever Haruhi says is the episode number the upcoming episode would be IF the show went in chronological order.
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2006-05-24, 18:25 | Link #1085 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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What exactly is the difference between rewriting reality on a whim and controlling fate? There is no difference. Well, I can't think of any. Can you? Someone who can rewrite reality can make anything happen, have happened, or be right about to happen. How is that not controlling fate? If you want a specific example within the series, Haruhi caused a time traveler to appear around her. Because of this, she's written the entirety of human history up the point where time travel was invented, and then made someone from that era come back to this particular era and join her club. How is that not controlling fate? But I agree that without control over it, she's not a god yet. Plus, she lacks the information to accurately control things, but she could always rewrite it so that she does have the information, or choose to completely ignore the information when/if she rewrites something. On another note, I believe that Neo does have godlike abilities, it's just that the writers of the Matrix completely screwed up after the first movie. I mean, really, why is that he can stop bullets, fly, and reprogram agents, but do absolutely nothing else of significance? That's just stupid. He even has to fist-fight manually. It's like the writers realized they couldn't make interesting sequels based on what they did to him in the first movie, so they limited it to the specific random things they had shown him doing in the ending of the first movie. So random, so stupid. |
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2006-05-24, 18:32 | Link #1086 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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But truly the philosophical issue is deeper than this, because in a truly deterministic picture no one and nothing can control fate.. It's abit hard to explain Quote:
So, your assessment is basically wrong. You should probably read up on all the Matrix fansites and their analysis because I am quite ignorant about it. |
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2006-05-24, 18:39 | Link #1087 | ||
Osana-Najimi Shipper
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mt. Ordeals
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Topic of friendship, you might see in other anime, but I doubt it'll creep up in this one, particularly for Haruhi. Haruhi from the very beginning comes off to be the 'lone wolf' type (remember the time when she sat by herself during PE class in eps 2?), and coupled with the fact that she could give a rat's ass about what anybody thinks of her, I don't think she's out looking for 'ordinary' friends. As such, I find it improbable and illogical that she founded the SOS dan for any other reasons than the one explicitly stated in the beginning of the series; that is to greatly enliven the world (for her sake, might I add). As for what Haruhi wants in life, I thought this was already answered in the first few minutes of episode 2? If there's one thing that can describe Haruhi, it's her knowing what she wants, when she wants it. As of right now there's only one thing she wants: to have fun experiencing extraordinary things. But hey, maybe she'd change her mind in the future, but the only logical change I can see so far in the anime would be changing her motto from what I have said before to 'have fun experiencing extraordinary things with Kyon', if episode 8 is of any indication. Nice theory, but it needs a bit more evidence from the anime itself before it becomes more plausible.
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2006-05-24, 18:51 | Link #1088 | |||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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Sure, it's possible to read it so he's not omnipotent, but it's certainly not the intuitive interpretation of the first movie. Plus, it's a much more complicated explanation, as you imply. Occam's razor. I guess the writer's are the ones who truly decide what the answer is, but that's why I call it bad writing, and prefer to stick with my nostalgic memories of the first movie. |
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2006-05-24, 18:55 | Link #1089 |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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No wait, if it's purely deterministic then her decisions on how to rewrite it are also predtermined by her environment, which is predetermined by her mind, etc, back into infinity. So no one has any ultimate control over fate, yes, you're right.
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2006-05-24, 19:08 | Link #1091 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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You're not right in that she changes the PRECONDITIONS by rewriting reality. She rewrites reality in a continuous fashion, that is.. event A ---> event B (rewrite) ---> event C It does not change the fact that event A transpired, or it is not clear what exactly happens to event A. It is also not clear to what extent her powers extend itself to.. In all, I don't think we should hold the author and creators to such high logical standards. They are not trained in philosophy, and even if they have some knowledge of it, I know plenty of people who hold little amusing "philosophical" thoughts that hold no logical water at all (for e.g. Mamoru Oshii and his theory of "ghosts" <GITS reference> and relationships).. In fact Japanese works tend to deliberately incorporate time paradoxes just for the heck of it. In this series, they do one with Kyon telling Miruku she has a birthmark on her breast and then Miruku (3 years later) travels back to tell Kyon, who in turn tells Miruku who (3 years later) travels back to tell Kyon... etc. It completely destroys the causal originator... this also happens in AIR as well. It's quite ridiculous, but fans lap it up and authors keep using this technique... Quote:
And utilizing Occam's razor in this case is a massive cop-out. I hate to say this, but given your attitude, let's apply Occam's Razor: what would be easier to say -- that you simply don't get it, or that they wrote it badly? Unless you're telling me that you're highly intelligent, maybe you should be abit more conservative. Like I said, go read. Edit: Even Wikipedia has its articles talk about the movies in relative depth. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix_series Each of the three movies have their individual pages, and have somewhat integrated explanations. |
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2006-05-24, 19:25 | Link #1092 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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I already conceded about the predeterminism thing, I assume you posted before you read that. I shall concede about the Matrix, except to say that I, personally, liked the first movie in the way I originally interpreted it. I'm sure it's possible and enjoyable to interpret it otherwise. |
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2006-05-24, 19:55 | Link #1093 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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In terms of the show, Haruhi's rewriting of reality consists of the composition of the world. That is, the nature of the world and perhaps even its history can be rewritten... (I know this might go against my previous post, but patience! I am no genius ) Such that, she can shape the world into her wishes or expectations.. which is why the Kyon + Haruhi arc at the end of Novel vol 1 (also alluded to in episode 4; the baseball episode). Controlling FATE, however, is a very tricky issue. Let's keep in mind first that despite Haruhi's speculated ability to shape reality and her state of Godhood, she does not seem to have control over the actions of others -- she does not puppet-string Kyon, Yuki and the others. Obviously this could be because she is unaware of her powers.. Anyways, regarding fate, let's just approach this from a deterministic model. Because "fate" (or fatalism") usually implies a destiny -- a plan of some sort. It's more often utilized in theistic circles because the omniscience of God implies that (1) he knows everything (2) everything is planned. A totally deterministic model makes no such deductions, just that (1) everything now is because of everything that has transpired. Anyways, applying it to Haruhi: Haruhi changes reality from State A to State B --> this is determined Note that to further illustrate the meta-control that real deterministic models exert, I'll bring up a common flaw.. In some movies or shows, or even in real-life, people sometimes say: "This is your fate, don't fight it." ... This happens even in some shows where there's a fate engine or some BS of the sort. However.. X fights "fate" --> this is determined That is, a person's refusal to accept what is "determined" IS determined. That is, the "determined" in double apostrophes is just a pseudo-determinism. That is why, saying that Haruhi has control over "fate", or has deterministic control over all of reality is something of a mistake.. Let me try my best to more clearly communicate this. Okay, let's do a counterfactual. Let us pretend that Haruhi has control over fate... Haruhi changes "Fate X" to "Fate Y" However, is THIS written above, fated by itself? Do you get what I mean? Haruhi changes "Fate X" to "Fate Y" --> Fated? The logical consequence of this is - If yes, it was fated that she changed X to Y, then she does not really have control over fate -- it's "pseudo-fate" If no, it wasn't fated, then it is hard to imagine there was any "fate" at all in the first place to speak of. |
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2006-05-24, 20:24 | Link #1094 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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So, yes, I guess I was mistaken in saying her power is indistiguishable from controlling fate. However, the orginal point I had was that this does not make her different from a god. A god couldn't control fate either, because it's just logically impossible to control fate. She's still in the same boat as an omnipotent god. A god's actions are predetermined in the exact same sense. A god cannot change fate, because fate cannot be changed. I suppose they could create fate from nothing, but Haruhi is also speculated to have created everything from nothing, and therefore fate at the same time. Haruhi's powers are still the powers of a god. Ah, I'm so weak in arguments like this. So now I'm saying "Everything I said in the first place was wrong, but now I shall use what you said to prove my original point, so I'm still right, haha!" Sorry. |
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2006-05-24, 21:27 | Link #1095 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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Anyways, weaknesses don't matter so long as we learn something out of this ; ) |
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2006-05-25, 08:18 | Link #1097 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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It's rude otherwise.
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2006-05-25, 16:02 | Link #1098 |
Banned
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Also notice that when Haruhi and Kyon are around other people she treats him terribly and when they are alone they get along quite well, such as after class or in the cave. Also, they seem to have a Key Master/Key Keeper (What was it in Ghostbusters?) relationship as well where whenever they are alone together reality gets altered
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or my friends hilarious theory about it all since he can't get in on the discussion without an account. Keep in mind my friend is a joker. Spoiler:
By the way me, my friend, and his brother are all crazy Mecha fanboys so take this with a grain of salt. Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2006-05-25 at 17:14. |
2006-05-25, 17:44 | Link #1099 | |
One PUNCH!
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I've been saying Kyon is the Keymaster because everyone keeps saying that he's the "key" to Haruhi. Spoiler for truth about "Keymaster" and "Gatekeeper":
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comedy, kadokawa, school life, science fiction, shounen |
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