Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

There are a lot of karma houdinis in Code Geass. An example is Nina - who made a nuclear warhead that killed a good deal of people.

Another example is Villeta and Ohgi, who basically put Lelouch on the path to Zero Requiem - That itself is a horrible sin.

One more example is Schneizel, who is pretty self-explanatory -- who wanted a flying fortress to rule the world after nuking his country's capital.

A lot of characters survived. But I'm glad the one with the worst karma did die.

Who, V. V.?

Agreed with Rising Dragon though. At least Nina did try to redeem herself.

As for Schneizel, he's been brainwashed into indentured servitude under Zerozaku.

You were however a little too leniently succinct in your summary of Villetta and Ohgi. Their collective wrongdoing was much deeper, and much worse than that, and they ended up with the happiest ending.

It just seemed to prove that even in the end, the world of Code Geass is a crapsack one.

[Kittenlady]

I generally believe that punishment just for atonement is fairly pointless, and pretty much in the same vein as revenge. And y'know, "And eye for an eye till the whole world is blind" etc.

Nina is my exception to this rule. The fact that she gets away with it all to live a nice, normal life really urks me. You don't just walk from killing 35 million fucking people, while other, more likable characters who didn't do things nearly as bad have to apparantly 'atone' and pay for their sins through death or worse. That's what annoys me. Why was an epiphany and acknowledgement that she was doing wrong enough to redeem her, yet not (this is just the easiest example) Lelouch, who's not killed nearly as many people, and has known he was doing bad things from the start? Nina is also a fucking unstable nutcase who's probably going to just end up building more weapons or whatever.

More importantly, did she ever apologise to Milly for being such a bitch?

Regardless of all the bastard-y things he did, Schneizel's in the most useful position he could be in, so I quite liked his fate. Plus he wasn't bothered about dying, but basically being a slave for the rest of his life is something he definetely wouldn't like.

Why the fuck someone like Ougi is running a country is beyond me. He doesn't have to die or whatever (though I wouldn't object <3), but at least put him in an appropriate role for god sake.

Cornelia worries me because she never actually showed any remorse over her previous actions, and is a very bloodthirsty person in general. What's stopping her from doing stuff like that again? Not even getting into all the war crimes kind of should be charged for.

/lalala incoherent rant in incoherent.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

Nina is my exception to this rule. The fact that she gets away with it all to live a nice, normal life really urks me. You don't just walk from killing 35 million fucking people, while other, more likable characters who didn't do things nearly as bad have to apparantly 'atone' and pay for their sins through death or worse. That's what annoys me. Why was an epiphany and acknowledgement that she was doing wrong enough to redeem her, yet not (this is just the easiest example) Lelouch, who's not killed nearly as many people, and has known he was doing bad things from the start?

More importantly, did she ever apologise to Milly for being such a bitch?

Nina never killed anyone, though. She made the bomb, yes, but it was Suzaku that pulled the trigger, and later Nunnally and Lelouch. She certainly felt bad about it, but saying she was the one who killed all those people is a misconception.

Also, redemption is a matter of perspective for us. Many people do not feel that Nina redeemed herself by creating the F.L.E.I.J.A. Eliminator. The difference between her and the others on the show, however, is that Nina put forth the effort to try and atone.

Also, chances are she did apologize to Milly during the one-month time-skip. Or at least come to an understanding. Regardless, Milly and Rivalz at least still considered Nina to be their friend.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

Regardless of all the bastard-y things he did, Schneizel's in the most useful position he could be in, so I quite liked his fate. Plus he wasn't bothered about dying, but basically being a slave for the rest of his life is something he definetely wouldn't like.

Hm, you think so? Considering Schneizel only really cared about the greater good, I can't imagine he would feel very strongly about this slave thing, either - as long as he gets his world peace, everything is peachy in Schneizel Land.

Or at least, that's the impression I got.

[Kittenlady]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Nina never killed anyone, though. She made the bomb, yes, but it was Suzaku that pulled the trigger, and later Nunnally and Lelouch. She certainly felt bad about it, but saying she was the one who killed all those people is a misconception.

Also, redemption is a matter of perspective for us. Many people do not feel that Nina redeemed herself by creating the F.L.E.I.J.A. Eliminator. The difference between her and the others on the show, however, is that Nina put forth the effort to try and atone.

Also, chances are she did apologize to Milly during the one-month time-skip. Or at least come to an understanding. Regardless, Milly and Rivalz at least still considered Nina to be their friend.

The responsibility for FLEIJA is shared, yes, but Schneizel and Nina (I don't care if you were being manipulated, love, you have free will, use it) more than anyone else. For one thing, apart from building it, she was also the one who put the FLEIJA on Lancelot and then they didn't have time to take it off before the Tokyo battle. Or something like that, I can't quite remember. I do know that Suzaku didn't want to use it, but Nina more or less made him (NICE BACKBONE THAR SUZAKU). Or if he didn't take it she or someone else more inclined to use it than him would idk. Point still stands. I think.

I agree that it's all perspective and subjective etc. What I don't like is how disproportionate it all is to what crimes they've done. What I mean is, if they're going to try and redeem all the characters one way or another, do it properly, or don't do it at all ><

Well, actually, they can do what they want, but it still annoys me.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Hm, you think so? Considering Schneizel only really cared about the greater good, I can't imagine he would feel very strongly about this slave thing, either - as long as he gets his world peace, everything is peachy in Schneizel Land.

Or at least, that's the impression I got.

...I want to go to Schneizel land. And, well, I really have no idea. My very simple thought process was him used to being in a position of power and not taking orders blah-di-dah, but you have a very good point.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Nina never killed anyone, though. She made the bomb, yes, but it was Suzaku that pulled the trigger, and later Nunnally and Lelouch. She certainly felt bad about it, but saying she was the one who killed all those people is a misconception.

Also, redemption is a matter of perspective for us. Many people do not feel that Nina redeemed herself by creating the F.L.E.I.J.A. Eliminator. The difference between her and the others on the show, however, is that Nina put forth the effort to try and atone.

Also, chances are she did apologize to Milly during the one-month time-skip. Or at least come to an understanding. Regardless, Milly and Rivalz at least still considered Nina to be their friend.

She seemed to be feeling pretty guilty in general when she was hiding under Milly's protection.

I find Nina being an exception in your mind a little odd though. I had more respect for her from her admission of guilt alone than the likes of Villetta, Ohgi, and Cornelia.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

The responsibility for FLEIJA is shared, yes, but Schneizel and Nina (I don't care if you were being manipulated, love, you have free will, use it) more than anyone else. For one thing, apart from building it, she was also the one who put the FLEIJA on Lancelot and then they didn't have time to take it off before the Tokyo battle. Or something like that, I can't quite remember. I do know that Suzaku didn't want to use it, but Nina more or less made him (NICE BACKBONE THAR SUZAKU). Or if he didn't take it she or someone else more inclined to use it than him would idk. Point still stands. I think.

I agree that it's all perspective and subjective etc. What I don't like is how disproportionate it all is to what crimes they've done. What I mean is, if they're going to try and redeem all the characters one way or another, do it properly, or don't do it at all ><

Well, actually, they can do what they want, but it still annoys me.

Nina didn't convince Suzaku to use it, though. If anything, that was Lelouch's fault, since was the one that placed the Geass command on Suzaku, and that's what made him go for that weapon, seeing how he had no other weapons (hadron blaster, VARIS rifle, MASER swords, Spinzaku kick) available to him. Sure, Nina was screaming at him to fire the weapon, but Lelouch and Suzaku were the ones who caused it to be used, not her. So unfortunately no, Kitten, I have to say that your point does not stand.

Originally Posted by azul120

She seemed to be feeling pretty guilty in general when she was hiding under Milly's protection.

Hell, who wouldn't feel guilty under those circumstances?

inb4talk of prince ali, mighty is he

[Chupps]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

There are a lot of karma houdinis in Code Geass. An example is Nina - who made a nuclear warhead that killed a good deal of people.

Another example is Villeta and Ohgi, who basically put Lelouch on the path to Zero Requiem - That itself is a horrible sin.

Meh, i hate Nina but she did try and succeed in creating a counter measure to her creation. Though she was responsible for the first ever use of the FLEIJA, she bullied Suzaku into using it, tempting the 'Live On' Geass within him. But if you think about the bigger picture, her successful counter measure aided heavily to the survival of key characters that were instrumental in bringing down Schneizel & eventually bringing about peace between the U.F.N and Britannia. Whether that's enough atonement is up to you i guess.

I'm not entirely convinced Villeta and Ohgi had much bad karma over their shoulders... Sure they helped Schneizel convince the other BK's that Zero can't be trusted, but they were pretty much being swayed by Schneizel's words and proof anyway. Also, Zero had a chance to let his voice be heard, give his side of it. I mean, he's led them through many battles and victories, most of them acknowledge that they'd be dead without him and no one else could have taken them that far. I believe they would have listened to Zero if that's what he wanted. But HE made the decision to have as less people affiliated with him when he went down as possible. Only Kallen realised it in the end, that he did it to take all the blame for his own.

Originally Posted by azul120

Who, V. V.?

I was thinking Shirley

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Hm, you think so? Considering Schneizel only really cared about the greater good, I can't imagine he would feel very strongly about this slave thing, either - as long as he gets his world peace, everything is peachy in Schneizel Land.

Or at least, that's the impression I got.

The greater good? Sure, as long as he was in charge of it. Being made a slave of Lelouch is probably the worst thing for him, he'd rather die given the choice.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

...I want to go to Schneizel land. And, well, I really have no idea. My very simple thought process was him used to being in a position of power and not taking orders blah-di-dah, but you have a very good point.

I think it's funny how Schneizel gives off the impression of someone who is every bit as much a control freak as Lelouch, but never really does anything that could serve as evidence for that. In fact, both Cornelia and Kanon strongly imply that he couldn't care less - and yet he just doesn't look the part.

Originally Posted by Chupps

The greater good? Sure, as long as he was in charge of it. Being made a slave of Lelouch is probably the worst thing for him, he'd rather die given the choice.

But that would contradict the thesis that Schneizel does not have "any desires of his own", a belief that is held by both Cornelia and Kanon. Schneizel seems to desire power solely as a means to an end, this end being world peace or, in more general terms, the "greater good".

[Kittenlady]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Nina didn't convince Suzaku to use it, though. If anything, that was Lelouch's fault, since was the one that placed the Geass command on Suzaku, and that's what made him go for that weapon, seeing how he had no other weapons (hadron blaster, VARIS rifle, MASER swords, Spinzaku kick) available to him. Sure, Nina was screaming at him to fire the weapon, but Lelouch and Suzaku were the ones who caused it to be used, not her. So unfortunately no, Kitten, I have to say that your point does not stand.

I'm certain this had been discussed and everyone's made up their minds so we'll just end up having to agree to disagree, but it's completely beyond me how a vague order to 'live' placed a year before the technology even existed makes it Lelouch's fault. It's just so far away in the chain reaction of events.

Yes, if Lelouch hadn't placed that order it wouldn't have happened, but you can say that about almost anything. If Schneizel hadn't ordered it to be made it wouldn't have happened, if one of the Black Knight's had shot Nina in the S1 finale it wouldn't have happened, if Nina got some thearapy it wouldn't have happened. And so on, and so on. Where is the line? If there's anyone with the most blame, personally I put it with the people who built FLEIJA and planned the explosion.

And it's totally true that if Suzaku hadn't took the bomb someone else would have, but he really ought to have taken that geass of his into account.

I think it's funny how Schneizel gives off the impression of someone who is every bit as much a control freak as Lelouch, but never really does anything that could serve as evidence for that. In fact, both Cornelia and Kanon strongly imply that he couldn't care less - and yet he just doesn't look the part.

Schneizel's actually a pretty simple character when you think about it, except kind of not because he's so odd. Bleh, I don't know. I suppose Kanon and Cornelia could be wrong, social aptitude at least wouldn't be Cornelia's forte.

Y'know, the best characterisation I've seen of Schneizel was in an AU. Weird, that.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Chupps

I'm not entirely convinced Villeta and Ohgi had much bad karma over their shoulders... Sure they helped Schneizel convince the other BK's that Zero can't be trusted, but they were pretty much being swayed by Schneizel's words and proof anyway. Also, Zero had a chance to let his voice be heard, give his side of it. I mean, he's led them through many battles and victories, most of them acknowledge that they'd be dead without him and no one else could have taken them that far. I believe they would have listened to Zero if that's what he wanted. But HE made the decision to have as less people affiliated with him when he went down as possible. Only Kallen realised it in the end, that he did it to take all the blame for his own.

Here's the thing, and it extends beyond the betrayal itself. Ohgi proved to be hypocritical on the following counts: 1) crying foul for being used as a pawn, and then using Kallen as bait and using Lelouch as a bargaining chip for Japan's freedom, 2) calling out Lelouch for abandoning the BKs during the Black Rebellion, even though he himself went AWOL on the Black Knights and acknowledged Villetta's desire to kill him as he was making a love martyr out of himself, and that the peace treaty with Britannia for Japan meant that the BKs would be abandoning the UFN in their campaign to liberate the world from Britannian tyranny, and 3) evidently taking issue with Lelouch secretly being a former Britannian prince, all the while trusting the word of the most dangerous of the current royal children, and a Britannian agent with whom he had a secret tryst. And said spy, Viletta, had no business testifying against Lelouch on Ohgi's behalf like that to begin with, especially with the cursory geass evidence that was presented, when she had been part of the OSI detail under direct order of the Emperor, and may very well have known that geass only works once per person and doesn't implicitly compel people into complete obedience.

Regarding the Black Knights, they were ready to open fire and kill Lelouch on the spot, taking Kallen down as well, fearing she may have been under geass as well. He knew he was unable to convince them, especially after noticing it was all Schneizel's doing.

Basically speaking, it was an unholy Molotov Cocktail of Swiss Messenger (Ohgi, and arguably Villetta), What An Idiot, and Kangaroo Court.

I was thinking Shirley

He said good karma, not bad karma. Shirley was one of the few innocent people of CG, and did not deserve to die in the least.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Indeed.

The person I meant was Lelouch vi Britannia. Not V.V..

Shirley was a good character. Why would I want her to die? Despite all her short lived angst and lulu'ing she was a good character.

Besides her not dying would have prevented Zero Requiem. Yes. Really.

Lelouch, worst karma? Zero Requiem was more a case of Lelouch becoming a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds, and one that in spite of logic to the contrary, actually gave everyone else their happy ending. And even so, I'd probably go with Cornelia. She didn't have half the Freudian excuse of Lelouch, and the blood on her hands was cruel, merciless, and unwarranted.

V. V., on the other hand, was a Complete Monster who was responsible for almost everything in the first place.

[Arbitres]

Lelouch, worst karma? Zero Requiem was more a case of Lelouch becoming a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds, and one that in spite of logic to the contrary, actually gave everyone else their happy ending. And even so, I'd probably go with Cornelia. She didn't have half the Freudian excuse of Lelouch, and the blood on her hands was cruel, merciless, and unwarranted.

V. V., on the other hand, was a Complete Monster who was responsible for almost everything in the first place.

Good point. But Lelouch had a good deal of blood on his hands he never repented for. Instead he just spilled more blood. He has probably killed just as many people as Cornelia, directly or indirectly.

But I do agree on V.V. basically being the cause for everything. I guess you are right on that.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

Schneizel's actually a pretty simple character when you think about it, except kind of not because he's so odd.

Ha, yes, this.

Bleh, I don't know. I suppose Kanon and Cornelia could be wrong, social aptitude at least wouldn't be Cornelia's forte.

Hm, I can see Cornelia being wrong (though it really looked to me like the staff was trying to make a point), but not so much Kanon. Put the two together, and you have two very different characters thinking the same of a person they clearly pay a lot of attention to. I believe the staff knew what they were doing there, and a lot of what Schneizel says and does can be explained that way.

Y'know, the best characterisation I've seen of Schneizel was in an AU. Weird, that.

Well, there are some awesome AUs out there.
It is ironic, though, considering the reputation they often have.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

Good point. But Lelouch had a good deal of blood on his hands he never repented for. Instead he just spilled more blood. He has probably killed just as many people as Cornelia, directly or indirectly.

But I do agree on V.V. basically being the cause for everything. I guess you are right on that.

After he completely lost his shit following the betrayal and wanted an excuse to die, in addition to wanting to repent for past sins, he felt that Zero Requiem was the solution.

And the difference between Lelouch and Cornelia was that most if not all of the latter's blood was spilled in the name of tyranny. Lelouch at least tried to fix things, not to mention that he had a lot of unwarranted shit happen to him throughout his life already, which pretty much necessitated some good karma, which for the most part, he never really got. In short, he was a bit of a Cosmic Plaything, the opposite of a Karma Houdini.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

And the difference between Lelouch and Cornelia was that most if not all of the latter's blood was spilled in the name of tyranny.

Yes, this.
Lelouch, more than half of the time, was trying to make the world a better place. Some people agree with his methods, others don't, but it's pretty clear he had a strong sense of justice. He also did a lot of crap, yes, and his version of justice can be pretty twisted at times, but personally, I'd give him more cake than, say, Rivalz. Rivalz is an awesome friend to have, but if you are a stranger involved in a car accident with only him around to help you and he happens to be in danger of coming late to school, well, tough luck.

Cornelia... Cornelia would cause the car accident if she didn't like you and thought it would make for an interesting war tactic.

[Kittenlady]

Don't forget that Cornelia's been doing all that shit for like 10 years. Lelouch wasn't even around long enough to do more damage than her. All the mowing people down like rats and killing 'numbers' left, right and centre in the first season was completely normal for her.

But I still like her because she has pretty hair and threw a knife in V.V.'s head.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

Don't forget that Cornelia's been doing all that shit for like 10 years. Lelouch wasn't even around long enough to do more damage than her. All the mowing people down like rats and killing 'numbers' left, right and centre is completely normal to her.

Yeah, this, too.
I thought her conversation with Schneizel in Stage 0.884 was pretty interesting. Not even the person she quite possibly admires most was able to convince her that no, breaking people completely is not the best way to go about things. Considering Schneizel can be pretty ruthless himself when he thinks it will achieve a positive result, that says a lot.

I like her, too, but... well, she's not someone who gets along well with most moral theories.

[Lord_Soth]

In a way, the vibes I got from the last episode, have a lot to do with the Charles-Mariana episodes as well...

Charles has been portraited as a hatefull bastage who didn't care about his children, at some point even 'abandonded' his empire as a ruler to pursue the final stages of Ragnarok (to a point that was evident that Schneizel was preparing a coup and Charles didn't even give two cents about it), and allowed his offspring and the KoRs to run wild left and right, dealing with the rebellions and riots.And we get to the part of confrontation and we are actually told that Charles really had good intentions, he tried to protect his children by 'sending them away' , he had a very hard life growing up with all the court murders left and right, and even had a noble cause alongside V.V. to rid the world of lies.
Mariana suddenly fell from the status of the protective mother, to the one who actually isn't bothered too much about the state of her children, since her plan will eventually fuse them all together , living and dead.

It was a bit chaotic, and it got repeatetive with Schneizel. Lelouchs older brother probably isn't very different from him either. Its a reason Lelouch looked up to him during his younger life, and the reason Schneizel 'feared' him in return. Both of these characters have so much in common, even to a point of wanting to have a better world but willing to bloody their hands as much as possible to achieve it.Cornelia, in her revelation, at the nursery bed said that her brother didn't even kill her, and that he has no ambitions, so he would make a fine King himself.

If someone tries to narate it deep down to a point, the only thing that actually makes sence (at least from me) , are Lelouchs words while he was destroying the Sword. He said that the only difference between the thee forces that were in conflict (Him, Charles, Schneizel) was that Charles desired the past, Schneizel the present, and Lelouch himself desires the future. And that was it. Nothing past that, each on their own would do EVERYTHING in their powers to achieve that goal. So, it can be quite a fuss to pinpoint someone as the 'major' villain, or the 'actual bad guy' that our heroes are up against, since all three of them are driven by pretty much the exact same 'morals' and 'ethics', and can very easily be placed in the same basket.

Each was set on a divine goal, and would stop at nothing to achieve it. It made it borderline 'grey' and hard to distinguish between them.The only thing that backed up Lelouch, and drove him to that realization is explained in detail with Suzakus words during the ZR part when he's about to drive his sword through Lelouch.

'We realized inside the world of C, that people desire the future'.

I guess that made all the difference.

[azul120]

Except that Lelouch would never have resorted to the ZR if not for Nunnally's disappearance in the FLEIJA blast and the Black Knights betraying him, both of which sent him over the edge and looking for an excuse to die. Lelouch was thus more of a Woobie Destoyer of Worlds at that point.