Fate/Zero - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[Haak]

America's superpower status could potentially collapse.

And the Soviets would win. Lol.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

All it would take is for a single bee to be released into the airport and for one bitten person to hitch a ride to either Tokyo or London. Assuming that there was the slightest delay in undeath, the result could have made Europe's Black Plague look like a nasty case of the mumps.

From the looks of it, only those with magical tenancies would be able to delay the undeath. Besides, if it starts happening, the church and mage association will be immediately dispatched. They'd cull the numbers quickly.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

millions would have die directly in NYC but billions would have been affected by the financial tidal wave form the destruction of NYC.

He said "die", not "be affected".

[erneiz_hyde]

That's assuming the Mage's Association and The Church didn't immediately deal the situation before it get to that. If they can show up in mere hours after an outbreak in a secluded island (where the hell did they came from really?), I can't see why they can't deal with this as swiftly. If they can hand-wave the issue of airplane explosion or an entire building collapsing, I don't see how they can't close that particular airport hall either.

Ah right, their methods would involve killing everyone (even the innocents) so that's a no I guess

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

That's assuming the Mage's Association and The Church didn't immediately deal the situation before it get to that. If they can show up in mere hours after an outbreak in a secluded island (where the hell did they came from really?), I can't see why they can't deal with this as swiftly. If they can hand-wave the issue of airplane explosion or an entire building collapsing, I don't see how they can't close that particular airport hall either.

Ah right, their methods would involve killing everyone (even the innocents) so that's a no I guess

they can't close a Airport, they will just blow the whole place up and blame it on terrorist.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

they can't close a Airport, they will just blow the whole place up and blame it on terrorist.

When in doubt, blow em up!

Yeah, I almost forget those two organizations' way of doing things. Good thing we only have one man wrecked in despair instead of hundreds or thousands more dead!

[Alaya]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

When in doubt, blow em up!

Yeah, I almost forget those two organizations' way of doing things. Good thing we only have one man wrecked in despair instead of hundreds or thousands more dead!

If that doesn't make Kiritsugu a hero, I don't know what to say :P

[Archon_Wing]

Interesting conclusion to the flashback arc that rounds out poor Emiya's character. Soul crushing indeed, especially with the part where they talked about doing what you were meant to do, as opposed to what you want to do. Summarizes just too much about life, sometimes. Now, how did Natalia get to the cockpit while dodging all those terrible zombie bees anyways?

Anyhow... 10/10

[Kaioshin Sama]

I liked the Sophie's Choice aspect of Kiritsgu's back story and how it's basically completely broken him. The way I see it this flashback needed to happen in order to prevent Kiritsgu from coming off as little more than a block of wood heading into the finale. That really just would not do.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Just a different translation. The term Shiro used in F/SN (Seigi no mikata) has already been used multiple times, but it was translated literally to "ally of Justice" rather than "superhero" here. At least that's how it is in the subs I watch.

That, and the term has a much different meaning than "superhero".
It comes out of those old Tokusatsu shows. A "Seigi no mikata" is better to be seen as a force of nature, someone who eliminates and punishes evil. Whether that saves others is besides the point. This is where both Shirou and Kiritsugu struggle with the ideal, because at the end of the day, they do want to save people, but what 'justice' requires is not always in line with that.

So the point of all this was to show that Kiritsugu is lacking critical understanding in mitigating his philosophy and what he himself wants. Which is why Natalia said he was "too perfect" at this profession. A person shouldn't mechanically pull the trigger, or they are really just a machine running on pre-programming instead of a person with a will.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

It comes out of those old Tonkatsu shows.

Don't you mean Tokusatsu? Tonkatsu is a name of food

[Altima of the Gates]

You're right. It's late, my brain is messed up.

[brandon279]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

Would having allowed billions of people to die somehow have made him "well"?

you (kiristugo in this case) think that there would be billions of victims had the plane landed, i dont think so.

the difference is:
you are too hasty and prefer to sacrifice anther one to save others once the chance appears, but i dont think that sacrifice is a must . even if the sacrifice is obligatory: the heroism is sacrificing yourself, not deceiving the others while sacrificing them.
for that (the deceiving) i think Kiristugu is a bastard>

his principle: kill few innocents to eliminate the probability of further damage..... is just sick idea.

there would be a tones of scenarios to quarantine the plane in the airport (after it lands and Natali gets out from the cabinet), but Kiristugu had chosen the easier way not the harder way.

it is like this: "why pay effort and separate the infected from the non, just kill them all"

for that i think he is sick.

so : bastard + sick


btw thats not the only evidence for Emya sick mentality:
he killed karynth and his wife while they had lost all their seals and their servant (rendered completely harmless) .... in other words : Kiristugu enjoys the killing while disillusioning himself that he is killing to save.

in my humble opinion, he kills because it is easy and he enjoys the guilt it in retarded way.

sorry for any flame

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by brandon279

in my humble opinion, he kills because it is easy and he enjoys the guilt it in retarded way.

Actually, I do have a sliver of this lingering in the back of my mind too.

Killing(yourself or others) is the easy(er) way out most of the time, particularly in Kiritsugu's line of job. It takes far greater resource and effort to take other approach, and often really not practical.

But hey, this line of discussion is similar to the "was nuking Japan evil/necessary?" line of discussion. And I'm on the "it's necessary" side of that.

[jeroz]

It's more like he's not going to take any chances.

Would there be anyone that would quarantine the airport? maybe, but they would also prefer to blow up the plane beforehand. If the plane is going to be blown up either way, it's better that he's the one that does the job perfectly instead of some half-assed attempt from the MA near the city.

Would Kayneth find another way to screw up Kiritsugu even after that stage? Considering that he came back from completely paralysed with the backhand dealing, chances are that he will be back with another servant. Had Kayneth just forfeited and seek protection from the church without trying to get back to the game, he probably would've lived. He is a talented mage with lots of hidden resources, what if he comes back later and stabs Kiritsugu from the back?

Kiritsugu had been on the battlefield for many times, he knows when to take his chances and when not to. Take it this way, if he's the one that's on the plane, he would ask Natalia to blow up the plane for him as well. It's just that there as not yet been a situation where his self-sacrifice would make a difference to millions.

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

That's assuming the Mage's Association and The Church didn't immediately deal the situation before it get to that. If they can show up in mere hours after an outbreak in a secluded island (where the hell did they came from really?)

considering that they had been on watch of the island, probably had a few people stationed nearby, and that the father contacted them. It would be a bigger surprise if they don't show up even earlier.

That being said, I would assume that a few MA people would be monitoring that bee guy's movements as well. However for them to act in the airport it would be even riskier.

[lightsenshi]

Anyone else starting to feel like they're watching Evangelion: The Grail War? Does every character have to be traumatized? -.-

[Craxuan]

Originally Posted by brandon279

you (kiristugo in this case) think that there would be billions of victims had the plane landed, i dont think so.

the difference is:
you are too hasty and prefer to sacrifice anther one to save others once the chance appears, but i dont think that sacrifice is a must . even if the sacrifice is obligatory: the heroism is sacrificing yourself, not deceiving the others while sacrificing them.
for that (the deceiving) i think Kiristugu is a bastard>

his principle: kill few innocents to eliminate the probability of further damage..... is just sick idea.

there would be a tones of scenarios to quarantine the plane in the airport (after it lands and Natali gets out from the cabinet), but Kiristugu had chosen the easier way not the harder way.

it is like this: "why pay effort and separate the infected from the non, just kill them all"

for that i think he is sick.

so : bastard + sick


btw thats not the only evidence for Emya sick mentality:
he killed karynth and his wife while they had lost all their seals and their servant (rendered completely harmless) .... in other words : Kiristugu enjoys the killing while disillusioning himself that he is killing to save.

in my humble opinion, he kills because it is easy and he enjoys the guilt it in retarded way.

sorry for any flame

Let's suppose that he decided to do things the hard way and let Natalie do her stuff. So she lands the plane safely, but one zombie - or bees, I don't actually remember - somehow some way got out and start turning people into zombies. Then, they clean up the job and everything is okay, Natalie is saved.

So... what about the lives of those few poor people? Just because to save Natalie?

Though honestly, this is the kind of life soldiers probably have to face every time in war, cold or hot. I will not be stupid enough to save a few people's life and accidentally wreck my entire country. I cannot afford that risk, and we haven't even begin talking about the lives of those 'enemies' we killed in the name of our own sweet brand of justice.

[mAc Chaos]

But in real life, solders go back into war zones to save stranded comrades all the time, even though they're putting themselves at risk.

[biodude711]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

But in real life, solders go back into war zones to save stranded comrades all the time, even though they're putting themselves at risk.

Soldiers will do that IF the risk of doing so isn't going to lead to more casualties in terms of both fellow soldiers and civilians.

[brandon279]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

But hey, this line of discussion is similar to the "was nuking Japan evil/necessary?" line of discussion. And I'm on the "it's necessary" side of that.

for me it was mass murder crime, the japanese had declared their acceptance of conditioned surrender to the world and lets dont forget that the target of the bombs: civilians

the aim of bombing was to scare Russia, nothing more.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by brandon279

the heroism is sacrificing yourself, not deceiving the others while sacrificing them.
for that (the deceiving) i think Kiristugu is a bastard>

Wrong statement: Kiritsugu -wanted- to be a hero of justice, but he perfectly knows he can't achieve such ideal, and went on a pragmatic path, which literally broke him as he had to forsake people closer to him for unknown numerous humans. He never pretends to be a hero, even if it was his prior inspiration. This is the very key part that defines his character and the reason why he made such explanations to Iri after killing Kayneth.

there would be a tones of scenarios to quarantine the plane in the airport (after it lands and Natali gets out from the cabinet), but Kiristugu had chosen the easier way not the harder way.

You've made a severe misconception here: this case is by no means any close to a virus outbreak contained in a aircraft. It is basically a plane full of undead that can just spread like the plague, should a single one of them is let loose. That leads to huge issues since it is by no means a regular affliction, AND the fact normal people would be clueless about that.
In this very scenario, there is no way for Kiritsugu or any character to figure a 100% risk free possibility, especially by the very nature of the danger (ghoul AND bees), with the fact that Natalia does -not- have any airbus experience. Therefore, the risks of having a outbreak is largely higher than a "happy end".

btw thats not the only evidence for Emya sick mentality:
he killed karynth and his wife while they had lost all their seals and their servant (rendered completely harmless) .... in other words : Kiristugu enjoys the killing while disillusioning himself that he is killing to save.

Wrong: as stated already, any master without their seals -still- are eligible for the grail, should another Servant is without its master. Kirei is the proof of that: he consumed all his command spells AND lost assassin, YET, the grail bestowed him 3 additional command spells (despite -no- servant was free at that given time).
That is the hard evidence that Kayneth could be a threat if he is not outright killed.