[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by TimeMask

Sasukemaru has a point that there are many holes in the Obito theory so I wouldn't say its the strongest Tobi theory but it is possible (but not the most solid theory).

My best argument for why Obito is not Tobi is why would Tobi choose to put his mind into Obito's crushed body when there were many strong Uchiha bodies at the time which Tobi could have taken.

madara wouldn't have known obito's body would get crushed at the time he implanted his 'chakra' into obito's mind. once the implantation tech was done, madara had no other choice but obito adn given obito's latent talent, I would assume he would want no other choice but the kamui-like MS tech

And its odd that Tobi would let Obito's body be crushed if he was planning to put his soul in it as he would have had Zetsu guard Obito like how Zetsu guarded Sasuke.

tobi wasn't around then. according to the theory he is the combination of obito's remnants and zetsu after the cave-in. also, zetsu couldn't reveal himself with the 4th hokage or his students present or it would have given away their plan and/or gotten tobi killed by the 4th right then and there. it makes sense that zetsu would have to wait until nobody could see him enter the body.

so like sasukemaru you say that there are many holes, but these do not constitute as holes. a hole implies that the theory is false based on what you're saying. and it can clearly stand up to these doubts if kishi wants it to

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by TimeMask

Sasukemaru has a point that there are many holes in the Obito theory so I wouldn't say its the strongest Tobi theory but it is possible (but not the most solid theory).

But I think the issue is that there aren't many holes in the theory. It seems that people mistakenly believe that there are holes in the theory, when in fact there aren't. Case in point, I just showed that the idea that Obito was too young to be Tobi during the 9-tails attack is not a hole in the theory.

My best argument for why Obito is not Tobi is why would Tobi choose to put his mind into Obito's crushed body when there were many strong Uchiha bodies at the time which Tobi could have taken. And its odd that Tobi would let Obito's body be crushed if he was planning to put his soul in it as he would have had Zetsu guard Obito like how Zetsu guarded Sasuke.

You assume that Tobi already existed at that time. In fact, we cannot say for sure when Tobi first came into existence. His first appearance chronologically was during the 9-tails attack. If you are talking about the original Madara, then it's a different story. Madara died around 30 years ago (search this thread for the proof of that deduction). So, any soul/chakra/memory transfer would have taken place 30 years ago. In the context of Obito Theory, it would have happened when Obito was a newborn, before his body was ever damaged. So, the argument that 'Madara would not have chosen a damaged body' does not come into play here. If Madara chose Obito, it would have happened before the events of Kakashi Gaiden, not after.

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

madara wouldn't have known obito's body would get crushed at the time he implanted his 'chakra' into obito's mind. once the implantation tech was done, madara had no other choice but obito adn given obito's latent talent, I would assume he would want no other choice but the kamui-like MS tech

tobi wasn't around then. according to the theory he is the combination of obito's remnants and zetsu after the cave-in. also, zetsu couldn't reveal himself with the 4th hokage or his students present or it would have given away their plan and/or gotten tobi killed by the 4th right then and there. it makes sense that zetsu would have to wait until nobody could see him enter the body.

Did you make that theory? its good but it doesn't explain why Tobi chose Obito's body when there were many stronger Uchiha bodies to choose from.

Also Zetsu would guard Obito so I don't see why Zetsu would let Obito get crushed just to hide his identity if Tobi decided to use Obito's body.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

so like sasukemaru you say that there are many holes, but these do not constitute as holes. a hole implies that the theory is false based on what you're saying. and it can clearly stand up to these doubts if kishi wants it to

I said in my previous post that the Obito is Tobi theory is possible (like other Tobi theory's) so I'm not saying the theory is impossible but I think there are faults with it.

[Teru987]

this tobi/obito this is really getting over hyped. I mean just cause they act the same and kinda look alike doesnt mean anything. If you look at all the characters some of them look alike some act the same and thats it. DO you really think you can draw unique faces and give everyone a different personality everytime. I dont think so and I think Kishi did it just to show that every generation acts like the one before

You assume that Tobi already existed at that time. In fact, we cannot for sure when Tobi first came into existence. His first appearance chronologically was during the 9-tails attack. If you are talking about the original Madara, then it's a different story. Madara died around 30 years ago (search this thread for the proof of that deduction). So, any soul/chakra/memory transfer would have taken place 30 years ago. In the context of Obito Theory, it would have happened when Obito was a newborn, before his body was ever damaged. So, the argument that 'Madara would not have chosen a damaged body' does not come into play here. If Madara chose Obito, it would have happened before the events of Kakashi Gaiden, not after.

This to me proves that obito cant be tobi, cause when the 9-tails attack he would have been 14 or so id he didnt die.If madara "did transfer" into obito 30 years before that it would make him around 26or so when obito body was crushed. If he did as a new born then he would have to be born 16 years before kakashi give or take a couple of years.

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by TimeMask

Also Zetsu would guard Obito so I don't see why Zetsu would let Obito get crushed just to hide his identity if Tobi decided to use Obito's body.

We can also ask why Madara would entrust his Rinnegan eyes to young Nagato living in the middle of a war-torn country. Or why Zetsu would allow Nagato's body to be crippled by Hanzou. Zetsu helped protect Sasuke from the 5 kages, but when Sasuke fought Killer B he was critically wounded. Where was Zetsu then?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by TimeMask

Did you make that theory? its good but it doesn't explain why Tobi chose Obito's body when there were many stronger Uchiha bodies to choose from.

most of the theory i've always thought as a good one from near the beginning of knowing tobi had a sharingan, but I've altered it a bit lately to account for Hiking Bear's timeline posts which make sense to me. I think that if obito is a direct descendant of madara or if madara somehow else knew that he would be MS capable (esp. with kamui) then that is why he would choose obito when he was young or at birth.

people like orochimaru knew sasuke would be special and capable at a young age based on his relation to itachi. we simply dont know obito's lineage at this time. what we know is that he and tobi possess possibly identical ocular powers.

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

most of the theory i've always thought as a good one from near the beginning of knowing tobi had a sharingan, but I've altered it a bit lately to account for Hiking Bear's timeline posts which make sense to me. I think that if obito is a direct descendant of madara or if madara somehow else knew that he would be MS capable (esp. with kamui) then that is why he would choose obito when he was young or at birth.

people like orochimaru knew sasuke would be special and capable at a young age based on his relation to itachi. we simply dont know obito's lineage at this time. what we know is that he and tobi possess possibly identical ocular powers.

Its a lot better then the Obito = Tobi theory's I've heard before, its a shame you can't make a separate thread for it.

The only big faults with the theory are that Tobi could have chosen a stronger uchiha body and that Tobi may be too old to be Obito.

[Teru987]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

most of the theory i've always thought as a good one from near the beginning of knowing tobi had a sharingan, but I've altered it a bit lately to account for Hiking Bear's timeline posts which make sense to me. I think that if obito is a direct descendant of madara or if madara somehow else knew that he would be MS capable (esp. with kamui) then that is why he would choose obito when he was young or at birth.

people like orochimaru knew sasuke would be special and capable at a young age based on his relation to itachi. we simply dont know obito's lineage at this time. what we know is that he and tobi possess possibly identical ocular powers.

No we dont cause we dont know if the ms that kakashi has is really obito's or his cause we dont know how he got ms.

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by Teru987

This to me proves that obito cant be tobi, cause when the 9-tails attack he would have been 14 or so id he didnt die.If madara "did transfer" into obito 30 years before that it would make him around 26or so when obito body was crushed. If he did as a new born then he would have to be born 16 years before kakashi give or take a couple of years.

I think you misunderstand the timeline. Madara died approximately 30 years ago from the present time. Kakashi is currently 30 years old and Obito would be about the same age (like 7 months older). So, the timeline places Madara's death at about the same time as Obito's birth.

[Dengar]

Except....


Madara had already been dead for a while during the events of Kakashi Gaiden... Which, by the way, is just a little Kakashi backstory to expand on the Kakashi character. I doubt somebody from a side story would turn out to be significant later on. Besides as I said, Madara had already been dead for a while. Remember the final battle between Madara and Hashirama happened in the neighborhood of a 100 years ago.

[Sasukemaru]

The battle between madara and hashirama took place 100 years ago, its fair to estimate madara was 20-30 years old at the time. Nagato died anywhere between 30-40 years old, meaning his birth would take place 60-70 years after the battle at vote.

Madara is aware of nagato's existence, remember that. Maadara would have to be a very old man to live to see the birth of nagato. Now, edo tensei 100 percent undeniably resurrects an individual as they were right before death. Edo madara is not an elderly person obviously, which means his actual body died before nagato was ever born, which also means he would have to be acting consciously through tobi before nagato was born. If that's the case, then tobi existed long before obito's birth. I dont see how you ppl can argue the obvious

Btw, if this post doesn't make u give up on the obito theory then nothing will, and you'll just have to patiently wait to be proven wrong.

[Dengar]

I can deal with waiting until they're proven wrong.

I don't have sufficient evidence to back up my claim that Tobi actually is nobody we know, and I wouldn't be very shocked if the contrary were proven to be true.

What I don't understand is why people argue that Tobi not being anyone special is impossible, which it clearly isn't. I mean, what do those fancy 'knocks' rules or whatever people keep referring to even have to do with anything?

Just in case somebody asks "why would Tobi be wearing a mask if he's not somebody we've already seen?".... That question doesn't even make any sense. Because afaik he's not hiding his face from an "audience" he has no knowledge of.

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by Sasukemaru

The battle between madara and hashirama took place 100 years ago

You have a very flawed view of the timeline. 100 years ago is approximately when Madara was born. Just do some simple math please. Tsunade is 54. She is the granddaughter of Hashirama. So, 2 generations older than Tsunade would be about 100-110 years. I would estimate that Madara fought Hashirama when they were in their 30s. So, their battle took place about 70 years ago (as a rough estimate).

Now, edo tensei 100 percent undeniably resurrects an individual as they were right before death. Edo madara is not an elderly person obviously, which means his actual body died before nagato was ever born

No. This is not correct at all. Madara's Edo Tensei form was explained by Kabuto to be special. He was reanimated to have the physical appearance he had when he was in his prime along with the Rinnegan power that he only achieved near the end of his life. The fact that Madara knew Nagato as a young kid means that Madara survived long after his battle with Hashirama. I think the manga has even told us more than once that Madara survived this fight.

Anyway, the point is that if Madara died shortly after awakening the Rinnegan and transferring it to a young Nagato. Therefore, we know approximately when Madara died.

Let's do the math..
Nagato died at around 40 years old.
Nagato received the Rinnegan at around age 10

40-10 = 30

30 years ago, Madara passed his Rinnegan onto Nagato and died shortly thereafter.

Btw, if this post doesn't make u give up on the obito theory then nothing will, and you'll just have to patiently wait to be proven wrong.

I wouldn't give up Obito Theory based on your bad math.

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by Sasukemaru

The battle between madara and hashirama took place 100 years ago

You have a very flawed view of the timeline. 100 years ago is approximately when Madara was born. Just do some simple math please. Tsunade is 54. She is the granddaughter of Hashirama. So, 2 generations older than Tsunade would be about 100-110 years. I would estimate that Madara fought Hashirama when they were in their 30s. So, their battle took place about 70 years ago (as a rough estimate).

Now, edo tensei 100 percent undeniably resurrects an individual as they were right before death. Edo madara is not an elderly person obviously, which means his actual body died before nagato was ever born

No. This is not correct at all. Madara's Edo Tensei form was explained by Kabuto to be special. He was reanimated to have the physical appearance he had when he was in his prime along with the Rinnegan power that he only achieved near the end of his life. The fact that Madara knew Nagato as a young kid means that Madara survived long after his battle with Hashirama. I think the manga has even told us more than once that Madara survived this fight.

Anyway, the point is that if Madara died shortly after awakening the Rinnegan and transferring it to a young Nagato. Therefore, we know approximately when Madara died.

Let's do the math..
Nagato died at around 40 years old.
Nagato received the Rinnegan at around age 10

40-10 = 30

30 years ago, Madara passed his Rinnegan onto Nagato and died shortly thereafter.

Btw, if this post doesn't make u give up on the obito theory then nothing will, and you'll just have to patiently wait to be proven wrong.

I wouldn't give up Obito Theory based on your bad math.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

Let's list them:

1. Tobi = Zetsu Clone Theory
2. Tobi = Izuna Theory
3. Tobi = Obito Theory
4. Tobi = Totally new Character

and then some others which are not really viable

5. Tobi = Son of Six Path Sage Theory
6. Tobi = Jyuubi Theory
7. Tobi = Shisui Theory
8. Tobi = Future Sasuke Theory

the only good options I consider left are Obito and totally new character. I could also see 5 and 6, but like has been stated many times, if tobi is as old as those characters, then where was he all that time between their supposed death and his first known appearance at naruto's birth? that's a long time to go under the radar. it could be explained but not that easily.

zetsu clone is out due to izanagi and izuna is out due to madara's latest words about his brother leaving him nothing but his eyes. shisui never made sense and future sasuke would just be horrible.

a totally new character is perfectly plausible and would probably be fine, but it wouldn't have the same impact as someone we have known already. not to mention all the hints at him being obito

for the people who say obito is a side character and we should just forget about it. 2 things: kakashi gaiden was the only section of the manga like that. it wasn't an ordinary side story. and like you people have said, it's to boost the kakashi character. well guess which character could use a plot boost lately? if tobi is indeed obito's body and kakashi is there during the reveal (which he will be for what is so far no reason other than to see obito) then it will make a once primary character very relevant again and backstories will commence, probably explaining what happened to Rin as well.

Originally Posted by TimeMask

Its a lot better then the Obito = Tobi theory's I've heard before, its a shame you can't make a separate thread for it.

The only big faults with the theory are that Tobi could have chosen a stronger uchiha body and that Tobi may be too old to be Obito.

yea, obito = tobi on it's own is dumb. tobi needs to have a knowledge source like madara to make sense. tobi is def. madara to an extent. so i just assumed he was using obito as a vessel during the interim of his resurrection. Hiking Bear brought up the points of how it would have to have been done when obito was young or just born, as opposed to after gaiden which makes sense after gaining the knowledge that madara died shortly after achieving rinnegan.

as for the stronger body counter, obito had a lot of potential, he was just lazy and goofed off a lot. madara would have had no way of knowing obito's work ethic. in retrospect it was still a good vessel to choose given the kamui MS technique capability

[Sasukemaru]

Hiking bear lets use your timeline, it dont make any difference.

Kabuto told madara he increased his powers from his golden age, not that he returned his youth to him. The chapter when madara first uses the wood release he asks kabuto what exactly have u done to my body. Because he could see no difference in his power, that is when kabuto tells him he can now use wood release. Madara wouldn't have to ask kabuto that question if he was old and made young again.

What does he mean by golden age u wonder? Its welk known after his fight with the first madara was no longer the same fighter. Even latet after unlocking rinnegan his actual body was still not what it used to be. Kabuto simply returned his body pre hashirama fight, he kept the rinnegan he unlocked after the fight, and had the wood release added to him post death. Never, i repeat NEVER is it said he had his youth returned. It would be pretty stupid of him to ask kabuto what exactly he did, if it was something so obvious dont u think?

[Bismark]

If he is Izuna, I question the ressurection jutsu's used:

1. He's not Edo Tensei'd
2. He seems to have died, but has the ability to heal himself and considerable medical knowledge, means that Izuna may have very well developed the "medical part" of the plans to lay the ground work for Madara's return. Whenever Pain died, his plains changed as he wanted Pain to sacrifice himself to bring back Madara
3. Consistently subordinates his own personality, again the "little brother in the shadow"
4. Sasuke getting the Rinnengan and thereby resurrecting Madara and fulfilling the Moon's Eye Plan after being connected to the statue with all the beasts

The real question becomes with Sasuke's whole goal of doing two things since the beginning of the manga:

1. He wanted to kill Itachi (check)
2. He wanted to restore his clan

-Real question becomes how, everyone figured that potentially "breed no jutsu" done with as many women as possible seems one possibility, however the Rinnengan has the ability to resurrect which means he could basically bring back most or some of the dead Uchiha at his leisure. Otherwise just breeds with Karin and formulates a new clan that blends Uzamaki's and Uchiha's.

3. Getting revenge on his old home town and the leaders, which means that potentially after he killed the renegade Danzo he might have gotten his wish to a degree. The old man and old lady are the last survivors, and may play a part in manipulating Sasuke. Depends really on Itatchi's work soon and the conclusion of this arch.

So connecting back into Izuna's toying with Sasuke seems that Sasuke wants to do in this guy who also killed his clan, but may very well have the keys to unlocking the next stage in his development to the level of a more powerful eye that can resurrect his parents is enough to bait him for "round 3 evil Sasuke."

Overall, it seems that Madara had a "Plan B" as a way to get him back from the dead with Edo Tensei being a work around their original plan, and Izuna being the first to use "Plan B" and come back to life with an incomplete body would make him reliant upon taking out DNA and getting new eyeballs from some hapless Uchiha. Especially if a weakened Madara sacrificed himself to get Izuna back, to then have Izuna use some fodder to resurrect Madara back to life which would've been Pain Thereby partially explaining the unhinged nature of Tobi with a unique obsession and identity problems, especially after brother killed himself to bring him back.

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by Bismark

If he is Izuna, I question the ressurection jutsu's used:

1. He's not Edo Tensei'd
2. He seems to have died, but has the ability to heal himself and considerable medical knowledge, means that Izuna may have very well developed the "medical part" of the plans to lay the ground work for Madara's return. Whenever Pain died, his plains changed as he wanted Pain to sacrifice himself to bring back Madara
3. Consistently subordinates his own personality, again the "little brother in the shadow"
4. Sasuke getting the Rinnengan and thereby resurrecting Madara and fulfilling the Moon's Eye Plan after being connected to the statue with all the beasts

The real question becomes with Sasuke's whole goal of doing two things since the beginning of the manga:

1. He wanted to kill Itachi (check)
2. He wanted to restore his clan

-Real question becomes how, everyone figured that potentially "breed no jutsu" done with as many women as possible seems one possibility, however the Rinnengan has the ability to resurrect which means he could basically bring back most or some of the dead Uchiha at his leisure. Otherwise just breeds with Karin and formulates a new clan that blends Uzamaki's and Uchiha's.

3. Getting revenge on his old home town and the leaders, which means that potentially after he killed the renegade Danzo he might have gotten his wish to a degree. The old man and old lady are the last survivors, and may play a part in manipulating Sasuke. Depends really on Itatchi's work soon and the conclusion of this arch.

So connecting back into Izuna's toying with Sasuke seems that Sasuke wants to do in this guy who also killed his clan, but may very well have the keys to unlocking the next stage in his development to the level of a more powerful eye that can resurrect his parents is enough to bait him for "round 3 evil Sasuke."

Overall, it seems that Madara had a "Plan B" as a way to get him back from the dead with Edo Tensei being a work around their original plan, and Izuna being the first to use "Plan B" and come back to life with an incomplete body would make him reliant upon taking out DNA and getting new eyeballs from some hapless Uchiha. Especially if a weakened Madara sacrificed himself to get Izuna back, to then have Izuna use some fodder to resurrect Madara back to life which would've been Pain Thereby partially explaining the unhinged nature of Tobi with a unique obsession and identity problems, especially after brother killed himself to bring him back.

Sasuke basically said he would revive his clan by destroying Konoha so Sasuke may not plan to use breed no jutsu. What makes you think Tobi has died before?

I think Tobi is someone we have heard of since Kishi will want to surprise us with Tobi's identity, if Tobi was a new character then Kishi would anger many fans since he kept Tobi's face masked for so long.

The only big problem with Tobi being Izuna for me is that many people won't be surprised if he is Izuna and Kishi likes to surprise us with plot twists.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by TimeMask

The only big problem with Tobi being Izuna for me is that many people won't be surprised if he is Izuna and Kishi likes to surprise us with plot twists.

also Izuna is either already ruled out or what madara has said in the past will make no sense. he said recently in ch577 p7: 'after my brother died, he only left me his eyes and their power' if tobi was izuna madara wouldn't have said that since tobi has done so much for him and the moon's eye plan. he made it sound like his brother's only use was giving him his eyes and of course that he is dead

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

also Izuna is either already ruled out or what madara has said in the past will make no sense. he said recently in ch577 p7: 'after my brother died, he only left me his eyes and their power' if tobi was izuna madara wouldn't have said that since tobi has done so much for him and the moon's eye plan. he made it sound like his brother's only use was giving him his eyes and of course that he is dead

I forgot about Madara saying his brother is dead, so it would be more of a surprise now for Tobi to be Izuna but that would mean Izuna was brought back to life or he faked his death to Madara.

So there is maybe more of a possibility that Tobi is Izuna but currently I don't think I can even decide who is the most likely to be Tobi, Kishi has done a good job of making Tobi seem like "nobody".