Valid argument about anime and cartoons?

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Oh good, I get to be the idiot who says that he liked Shukfuku no Campanella in both game and anime form. Sure, it was campy and the production values weren't very high-budget, but I enjoyed it. I bought all the Japanese Blu-Rays. It sure is nice to go on a forum and have people tell you you're an idiot just because you have differing tastes.

(Read: Everyone has their own tastes. Pretending that there's some single standard of "objective goodness" is a sure way to make yourself look obnoxious.)

You may have liked it, but you said it yourself, it was campy and the production values were poor. You just liked it because you're into that sort of thing. Hell, I like a lot of bad stuff too. Doesn't change the fact that it's bad. I'm just as willing to forgive bad stuff if it meets certain incredibly subjective criteria (like having kickass giant robots). I ain't willing to forgive horrendous errors of geography though.

If you really want to go into it, the first episode of campanella was mediocre (if not bad) for several easily seen reasons:
1. The setup is generic. It's been done 100 times already, and there were no creative touches to it (at least in the one episode I saw).
2. The writing was stilted and flat. None of the characters had a whiff of personality.
3. The animation was poor.
4. The backgrounds were dull, and again generic.
5. The character designs had no creativity involved.

With a show like Campanella it felt very obvious to me that the staff didn't really care about the show whatsoever, they were just doing it for the pay check. It comes out okay, but it has no soul. If someone had written a guide to "how to do a first episode of a moe harem show" campanella would have stuck to it with no deviations whatsoever.

I think you're the only person I've encountered who liked that show enough to buy a blu-ray . But then, whenever I make a bold assertion that "everyone would think X is bad", I always invariably get one person...

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

But then, whenever I make a bold assertion that "everyone would think X is bad", I always invariably get one person...

Yes, because making blanket statements like that is foolish.

TL;DR…

Casting doubt on various specific criticisms, for the sake of it

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Anyway, my point isn't even to defend this particular show because we could have these arguments about any show. I'm not even trying to imply that this show isn't without flaws or faults; no show is. My point is just to ask that you, please, not pretend that you're an expert on what's good and what isn't. It's just an opinion.

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I know that personal taste pretty much dictates your preference of shows, but do you actually know all those "90% of the anime produced in the last decade" to say that they're worse than Futurama, King of the Hill, Daria, The Venture Bros. Home Movies, and Mission Hill?

No, but I at least sample anything recommended to me as being above average, which is my basis for comparison. I don't need to watch every forgettable ecchi incest harem comedy to know that Daria's better.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Anyway, the major problem with "adult" American animation right now is that it's extremely limited in tone. Everyshow is basically a simpsons copycat. It's all cynical, slightly snarky, "edgy" comedy. No horror, no SF, no fantasy, no romance, no drama, no variety. That's the problem with American animation. The reason everyone says anime is one genre, is because American animation is all one genre!

Cynical and snarky is endemic in American popular entertainment regardless of whether it's animated or live action. However, Futurama and Venture Bros. are both sci-fi shows with significant romantic and dramatic plotlines interwoven with the comedy, while Daria and King of the Hill were slice-of-life series with the same. I'd also argue that The Clone Wars and many superhero series are aimed at older teens and twenty-somethings just like late-night anime.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

No, but I at least sample anything recommended to me as being above average, which is my basis for comparison.

Do those titles recommended to you cover the "90% of the anime produced in the last decade"?

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

I don't need to watch every forgettable ecchi incest harem comedy to know that Daria's better.

Do those "90% of the anime produced in the last decade" consist only (or mostly) of “forgettable ecchi incest harem comedy”? I doubt it . Also, how do you know that some anime titles are “forgettable ecchi incest harem comedy” if you never seen them? Anime tags aren’t that reliable to use as a judgment tool.

[LifeILL]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

Cynical and snarky is endemic in American popular entertainment regardless of whether it's animated or live action. However, Futurama and Venture Bros. are both sci-fi shows with significant romantic and dramatic plotlines interwoven with the comedy, while Daria and King of the Hill were slice-of-life series with the same. I'd also argue that The Clone Wars and many superhero series are aimed at older teens and twenty-somethings just like late-night anime.

Come on...you know what he's saying. Most of American cartoons are humorous, light and episodic, even the ones aimed at older audiences, the Superhero genre, they don't reach their full potential. They don't follow the comic books, they go for the "lighter" tone, there's rarely anything out that makes you think that "wow, this is just as good as live-action stuff I've seen".

You can say that Futurama is Sci-Fi, but it doesn't take it seriously, it's just fun and gags. There's a huge difference between "Futurama" and the "Dead Space" cartoon, both are sci-fi, but one takes it seriously. And you know that the Dead Space cartoon only went straight to DVD, and it can never be broadcasted on TV, whereas if it was a Japanese production, it would be on your local channel at night.

Anime is just more cinematic, they have different genres, a lot are non-episodic and have ongoing storylines, even 5 or 6 different plotlines going on at the same time, characters actually die, they show war, crime, politics, famine, just things you can find in a normal movie or TV show.

The only American cartoons I can think of that does that is the X-Men: Animated series and Avatar, every season had an ongoing storyline, and it felt like a normal TV show.

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by LifeILL

You can say that Futurama is Sci-Fi, but it doesn't take it seriously, it's just fun and gags. There's a huge difference between "Futurama" and the "Dead Space" cartoon, both are sci-fi, but one takes it seriously. And you know that the Dead Space cartoon only went straight to DVD, and it can never be broadcasted on TV, whereas if it was a Japanese production, it would be on your local channel at night.

Anime is just more cinematic, they have different genres, a lot are non-episodic and have ongoing storylines, even 5 or 6 different plotlines going on at the same time, characters actually die, they show war, crime, politics, famine, just things you can find in a normal movie or TV show.

The funny thing is:

US TV is starting to adapt more towards that "cinematic" format. I cannot truly make this claim, as I had stopped watching US TV a long time ago; and I am not all that inclined to start again. However, ever since, Lost - TV networks are implementing a less episodic format, in favor of a more continuous overall storyline.

Now, correct me if I am wrong on this.

[Triple_R]

Generally, modern American cartoons fall into one of two categories:

1) Clearly aimed at kids (adults can still enjoy it, of course, but they're still shows that are aimed at kids).

2) Comedies aimed at adults. Now, these comedies may have a sci-fi or vaguely "slice of life" element to them, but they're still mainly comedies.


Now, what's the American cartoon equivalent of Steins;Gate? Of Madoka Magica? Of Mawaru Penguin Drum? Of Sword Art Online? Of Hyouka? Of Fate/Zero?

It's just not there. Until there is one, the anime/cartoon differentiation will exist for anime fans.


There was a brief period around when the Timmverse and Avatar was airing that American animation was starting to show some signs of branching out in an anime-esque way, but it just didn't truly hold, imo.

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There was a brief period around when the Timmverse and Avatar was airing that American animation was starting to show some signs of branching out in an anime-esque way, but it just didn't truly hold, imo.

That's partly the result of Avatar being rejected as an "anime". Once upon a time, I viewed Avatar as an "anime" -- until I actually watched it. It took the character facial expressions during conversation to remove the impression. It's just not subtle enough. Thus, I view Avatar as "close but not quite". The Boondocks falls into this same platform.

And so. To break through the mold, it might take members of current anime fans - to embrace anime AND go on to make a career producing it. I'd do it; but I don't have any talent remotely close to it.

Otherwise, American animation will remain stuck.

[janipani]

In Europe we have, what I believe is made in Holland: Alfred J. Kwak.

It's clearly aimed at children, but themes are quite hardcore.

Alfred is a duck boy that lives in a wooden shoe house. Story begins when Afreds father meets his Mother and they make a family, Alfred is born among many of his siblings. Soon after this huge theme park is built on the pond where Alfred's family lives and duck family has to move. During this travel Alfred gets separated from his family and when he catches them they are run over by a car and Alfred is left orphon.

The series go through various themes about problems in societies, like corruption, war, criminality, nazis and tyrants, greedyness... lot of themes quite harsh.. or what do thing about this a duckling in danger to get executed by a quillotine, because he was mistought of stealing king's diamond that didn't even ever got lost. Quite harsh.

I loved that show and I loved its adult themes.

So was it Anime or Cartoon, content of story is what matters most.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by C.A.

It is true that somehow non-Japanese otaku always hate it when anime is referred to as cartoons, it is understandable. But things only go wrong when anime fans think that anime should not be called cartoons because they think anime is better than cartoons. Which is not true because Western cartoons are technically superior in most aspects except for style which is subjective and is what anime fans like.

Well... I suppose, if you think a mild advantage in technical quality is worth more weight than an overwhelming disadvantage in writing... (I'm not trying to be rude there, I just don't think superiority in one area is enough to deem the overall product as being better...)

I haven't paid much attention to American cartoons since '97 or '98. My interest in cartoons started to wane a bit when I was around seven, and by the time I was eight or nine my enjoyment of them was very halfhearted; I pretty much ditched them altogether when I discovered roms in 1999 and started spending most of my leisure time playing RPGs instead (which shifted to anime during the mid-2000s, starting with getting the first season of Slayers Christmas 2003). I don't know if things have changed since I was a kid, but back then the cartoon landscape was mostly just a bunch of crappy children's cartoons along with a few good comedy cartoons or adult cartoons, ala The Simpsons, Life With Louie, Daria, etc. Like Triple said, the Japanese landscape is far, far more diverse. With that in mind, it's honestly kind of baffling to me that anyone can make a serious comparison of American animation vs. Japanese, it's like comparing the Sunday comics to a series of novels. Japanese children's cartoons I can respect as being competent and could probably enjoy watching a one-off episode here or there even if the series in question is something that I don't have much interest in (Digimon, Pokemon, etc), wheras with American cartoons on television I wasn't able to feel more than lukewarm towards most of them past the age of six or seven and was already starting to think of them as being cheap products that I settled for mainly because that was all that was available for me; I'm sure I'd have jumped from the cartoon to the anime ship if anime had a real presence during the '90s like it does now.

[Random32]

Originally Posted by Kyuu

The funny thing is:

US TV is starting to adapt more towards that "cinematic" format. I cannot truly make this claim, as I had stopped watching US TV a long time ago; and I am not all that inclined to start again. However, ever since, Lost - TV networks are implementing a less episodic format, in favor of a more continuous overall storyline.

Now, correct me if I am wrong on this.

TV is already in that more "cinematic" format. It's animation that is lagging behind. Animation in the west is pretty much either comedy, or for kids, and quite often both.

[DonQuigleone]

The problem with the non-comedic American cartoons like Avatar is that while they mightn't be so comedic, they're still squarely aimed kids. They're also all superhero shows. So American adult cartoons are restricted to 1 genre (snarky slightly risque comedy), while American kids cartoons are restricted to 2 (Superheroes, and broad comedy).

Though to be honest, even the humour in american cartoons has become less creative over the years. Compare it to the Looney Toons or Tom and Jerry, it lacks all that energy.

There was a brief "renaissance" around the turn of the millenium where you had some creative shows like Animaniacs, Pinky and the Brain, Johnny Bravo, Dexter's Laboratory and others, but from what I can see it's just petered out. The only show doing anything remotely interesting these days is My Little Pony. Though I'd happy to be corrected.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

The problem with the non-comedic American cartoons like Avatar is that while they mightn't be so comedic, they're still squarely aimed kids. They're also all superhero shows. So American adult cartoons are restricted to 1 genre (snarky slightly risque comedy), while American kids cartoons are restricted to 2 (Superheroes, and broad comedy).

Though to be honest, even the humour in american cartoons has become less creative over the years. Compare it to the Looney Toons or Tom and Jerry, it lacks all that energy.

There was a brief "renaissance" around the turn of the millenium where you had some creative shows like Animaniacs, Pinky and the Brain, Johnny Bravo, Dexter's Laboratory and others, but from what I can see it's just petered out. The only show doing anything remotely interesting these days is My Little Pony. Though I'd happy to be corrected.

The thing I've found about the culture of the west (North America) is that it tends to be very, very 'new-focused' and 'group think'.

For all the criticism that some of us give otakus, western culture is no better really. Everybody jumps on the latest new bandwagon just because it's the new hot thing, and older things that were perfectly fine for many functions are cast aside just because they're old.

Facebook and Twitter have their uses, but they've really been blown out of proportion, imo. And Reality TV took off like crazy with the rise of Survivor and its never quite look back. And in the realm of animation, CGI has just about killed traditional 2D Animation in the west, imo. It's really little more than the legacy of The Simpsons that is keeping 2D Animation going in America.

In a truly bizarre twist, anime is arguably truer to the vision of Walt Disney than modern Disney itself is.

The problem facing American cartoons isn't just the old and sad "Cartoons are for Kids!" bias. It's also that many people see 2D Animation as a thing of the past, and that CGI is where its at now.

Movies like Disney's Beauty and the Beast, the Little Mermaid, and Alladin, at least sowed the seeds in people's minds that you could do full-length animated features that are more than just comedies (even if they are for kids). But that's gone now, with CGI animals doing crazy hijinks taking over.


Kyuu is right. For American animation to get out of its current rut its probably going to take an American-born anime fan who is somehow able to produce an original animated work, something anime-esque, but also something that's of America (it's not going to work if the setting is Tokyo, imo). That may well be a tall order, but I hope that somebody can achieve it some day at least.

[DonQuigleone]

I think we need to do someting new and interesting, but it shouldn't be that similar to anime. The only thing we need to copy from anime is the willingness to do weird things, and tackle different subjects and moods. And really, that's not "unique" to anime.

If America is to dig itself out of it's animation rut, it won't come from imitating the Japanese, it will come from doing something new and different, blazing a path for the future. I don't think the future is in making cartoons that look like Anime.

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by Random32

TV is already in that more "cinematic" format. It's animation that is lagging behind. Animation in the west is pretty much either comedy, or for kids, and quite often both.

Agreed, and the trend needs to get there. Or else, American animation will remain in limbo.

[LifeILL]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I think we need to do someting new and interesting, but it shouldn't be that similar to anime. The only thing we need to copy from anime is the willingness to do weird things, and tackle different subjects and moods. And really, that's not "unique" to anime.

If America is to dig itself out of it's animation rut, it won't come from imitating the Japanese, it will come from doing something new and different, blazing a path for the future. I don't think the future is in making cartoons that look like Anime.

That's easy, they have TONS, unlimited material they can adapt from Marvel/DC comics, Image comics etc...

Invincible is a great comic to be adapted into a serial animated show.

Or pick any good over-arching Superhero story and just faithfully adapt it. Don't go for a lighter tone, aimed at kids, just do it how it is in the original comics. How hard can it be?

And also, there are all the video games they can adapt. Dead Space, Knights of the Old Republic, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Assassin's Creed, Thief etc....how hard can it be??

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

I'd put Futurama, King of the Hill, Daria, The Venture Bros. Home Movies, and Mission Hill above 90% of the anime produced in the last decade.

While that's true, I could also name five or six anime and say I'd put them above 90% of American cartoons produced in the last decade.

Both statements can be true, and not contradict each other.

In fact, you take any medium and name the top of them, and say the same thing about the said medium in another country.
See, you're making the mistake of taking cream of the crop, and comparing to majority junk of another, while perhaps not realizing what you're saying applies to everything.

"(insert award winning BBC show) is better than 90% of the crap on American TV."
"(insert award winning PBS show) is better than 90% of the crap on British TV."

See why such statement is pointless? Both of the above statements can be true, and still not contradict each other.

"This boxing champ from America is better than 90% of all boxers in the world. America rules!"
"But this champion boxer from our country is also better than 90% of the world. And so is he. And him. And that one over there."

[Ak3mi]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Lol, well, to me, anime is just Japanese animation, or Japanese cartoons; I don't really draw the difference, and just notes it comes from Japan. It doesn't need to be in another category, besides being noted as media by Japan.

Exactly what I think. That's how I see it anyway.

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by janipani

In Europe we have, what I believe is made in Holland: Alfred J. Kwak.

Alfred J Kwak was a co-production between Dutch, German and Japanese television so technically speaking it can be considered as anime. ;P

[Tempester]

I can't speak much for American TV cartoons, although what I've seen of them lately have been mostly horrible, but I don't think American film animation is quite dead. For instance, in 2010, I really enjoyed How to Train Your Dragon, Toy Story 3, and Tangled. We'll still have our wacky talking animal movies, but there is still some good stuff to find.

Now if only the American producers of film animation would get off this horrible CGI bandwagon. CGI films are so overrepresented now that I feel that the concept of high profile 2D animated films could actually be a novelty and marketing move like what Toy Story was back in 1995.