AnimeSuki Forums

XenahortCharybdis · 2013-04-18, 11:22

I guess you're right, why not - there are some irregularities. I would agree wholeheartedly - even though bear in mind that only the Type IVs are actually that good. The rest have barely a fragment of that power (having a fragment of a Jewel Seed-like thing in you can only give you that much power). But it's infinitely closer than using Nanoha, who beat the ever-living crap out of real-sized ones at a fraction of her current power, wouldn't you say?

After all, the Cheytac Intervention is arguably a better weapon than, say, the old Mosin-Nagant in terms of pure specs...but at least they're still both sniper rifles. Now if we brought in the GAU-8A Avenger, then there'd be some trouble with the Bad Analogies Department waiting to happen right there.

krisslanza · 2013-04-18, 15:08

The Type IV's are that strong as they're actually leftovers from Ancient Belka. The Type I-III are ones Jail himself made, which I imagine aren't as good. Ancient tech and all that.

Also, I don't think the ban on mass weapons derives from the damage they can inflict, rather its that ANYONE can use a gun. Not everyone can use magic, and those can, magic is inherently non-lethal, and furthermore, controllable.

Well, there's also that Belka basically destroyed itself through mass weaponry as another reason for the TSAB to ban it. Mass weapons are dirty and messy. Magic doesn't produce any kind of harmful byproduct.

Akiyoshi · 2013-04-18, 15:18

Uhm, i don't know where this "magic is inherently non-lethal" came from, sure, we know Nanoha and most mages sponsored by the TSAB learned how to use non-lethal magic, but not every mage sticks to that statement. The magic used by the Wolks can be very lethal, you could ask Zest about that xDU Teana's stray bullets were a pretty big deal on StrikerS to the point Vita gave her a good scolding for almost grievously injuring Subaru, Reinforce and U-D were both World-endangering magical beings and Stern is not called the "Starlight Destroyer" just for kicks xDU

Rising Dragon · 2013-04-18, 15:43

The first bit of lethal magic being depicted in Nanoha came from A's, when Fate minced the Scarlet Dragon that was attacking Signum, leaving it both dead and in pieces. Nanoha magic comes with a non-lethality switch, it is not permanently non-lethal, and even that can leave lasting damage--look at Laguna.

XenahortCharybdis · 2013-04-18, 19:22

Probably because the same amount of concussive force that could crack a rib and knock you flat on your back would probably bust an eyeball. Oh well, too bad for you, Vice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by krisslanza

Also, I don't think the ban on mass weapons derives from the damage they can inflict, rather its that ANYONE can use a gun. Not everyone can use magic, and those can, magic is inherently non-lethal, and furthermore, controllable.

Well, there's also that Belka basically destroyed itself through mass weaponry as another reason for the TSAB to ban it. Mass weapons are dirty and messy. Magic doesn't produce any kind of harmful byproduct.

Lethality issue addressed, won't cover.

What I think the two factors behind the ban needn't be mutually exclusive - the damage they can cause is definitely a very real problem, and the ease of use exacerbates the issue. As I see it, though, that ease of use is a dangerous factor at all requires that ease of obtainment must also be reasonably high.

Which leads me to imagine that there must have been a significant and very profitable arms trade -indeed, I believe it may still exist albeit well out of the Bureau's reach- going on before the Bureau decided to shut them out of Administered Space. After all, there would be little need for you to ban a little nasty something in your sphere of influence if the big bad outside people wren't threatening to flood the porous borders of Slipspace with the stuff.

WarpObscura · 2013-04-18, 20:56

Xenahort you ninja, those were all points I wanted to make.

...

:P

Anyway, as Xenahort said, part of the question is indeed scale. No one's seriously saying that standard handguns and rifles will pose a threat with what we do know of Nanohaverse durability. On the other hand, if you look across fiction, there are plenty of mundanes doing crazy shit: The Death Star shatters planets. The Forerunners can cleanse an entire galaxy of life. Strike Legion consider drivebys in space viable method of orbital bombardment. Cultureverse gridfire is nova-level. Xeelee routinely break stars. Not a drop of magic in 'em. Or to quote:

" You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling."

XenahortCharybdis · 2013-04-18, 21:46

I think it is as they say: "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Tiresias · 2013-04-18, 21:55

I think in the Nanohaverse it's more "Magic is just another branch of science."

XenahortCharybdis · 2013-04-18, 21:59

Hoo, guess I wouldn't contest that.

Rising Dragon · 2013-04-18, 22:05

Magic in Nanoha still has elements of it being magic; it's not simply technology. Magic refined by technology, certainly, but you can't explain everything with technology, like familiar contracts and how magic damage only causes pain but not death, yet can still utterly devastate the surroundings...

Tiresias · 2013-04-18, 22:14

Pretty sure I typed Science, not Technology.

As for how less-than-lethal magic attacks work?
First, barrier-jackets can tank hits that would pulverize concrete.
Second, take Divine Buster as an example. What is it? A concentrated stream of accelerated mana. With sufficient control, the caster can program them to slow down as soon as the enemy barrier are down and disperse the damage somewhere else, preventing lethality. Of course, as shown with Vice's case, this isn't perfect and miscalculations could result in organ damage.
Third, magic damage are not always less-than-lethal. Remember Signum killing Zest? Or all the kills done by the Wolkenritter under their previous masters(is is stated that they only do less-than-lethal approaches for the sake of Hayate)? Or the Arc-en-Ciel?

As for familiars...I haven't got a clue, but I remember the author of Game Theory describing a plausible explanation on how it works. Maybe I'll dig it up later.

krisslanza · 2013-04-19, 12:15

For the Wolkies, it's more that while magic CAN be non-lethal, their Armed Devices are inherently lethal. Magic is what makes them able to not kill people, combined with knowing where to not strike someone.

You can certainly kill someone with magic though, just standard TSAB procedure is to always have the "safety" on.

The Arc-en-Ciel is kinda iffy in that, I don't think it's so much the Arc ITSELF kills things, but considering it rips a big hole in space-time, that is probably pretty lethal... or at least, would probably trap you somewhere pretty unpleasant.

Tormenk · 2013-04-19, 12:27

I'll put forth the iffyness of familiar contracts as filling in variables and the like that programming runs by. Which is the platform magic supposedly operates on in-universe.

bhl88 · 2013-04-19, 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by krisslanza

For the Wolkies, it's more that while magic CAN be non-lethal, their Armed Devices are inherently lethal. Magic is what makes them able to not kill people, combined with knowing where to not strike someone.

You can certainly kill someone with magic though, just standard TSAB procedure is to always have the "safety" on.

The Arc-en-Ciel is kinda iffy in that, I don't think it's so much the Arc ITSELF kills things, but considering it rips a big hole in space-time, that is probably pretty lethal... or at least, would probably trap you somewhere pretty unpleasant.

Something like crushing the thing while sending it to another dimension?

krisslanza · 2013-04-19, 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhl88

Something like crushing the thing while sending it to another dimension?

Yeah, exactly! Sure, same as killing someone, but I guess it's an argument of semantics.

Either way, you really don't want to be anywhere near an Arc-en-Ciel blast. Or an Augusto, I would imagine.

Akiyoshi · 2013-04-19, 14:47

I assume the Arc-en-Ciel rip appart your molecules and spread those across different dimensions ...deader than death indeed xDU

I would like to see the Augusto shooting against something non-EC-powered so we can attest the real capabilities of said weapon.

ZeroXSEED · 2013-04-19, 19:08

It works like vacuum blast, the arc en ciel destroy the dimensional integrity of a certain area, caused everything within it to collapse, and the feedback pressure caused by the universe trying to 'mend' the chaotic near-vacuum state into equilibrium threw the scattered subatomic materials at sufficient velocity, across the MULTI-verse

A sufficiently powerful weapon of same type might even cause entire universe to collapse and implode.

Cannonball · 2013-04-22, 10:09

Aye, the Arc is essentially a weaponised dimensional dislocation. Of the same kind that lost logia have a bad habit of accidently causing when things go wrong. It's a pretty terrifying beast to be honest.

green-link94 · 2013-04-22, 11:44

Has anyone noticed that everyone's description of the Arc-en-Cie's functions are contradicting each other.

bhl88 · 2013-04-22, 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by green-link94

Has anyone noticed that everyone's description of the Arc-en-Cie's functions are contradicting each other.

lol my description is vague...

2013-04-18, 15:08	Link #3242
krisslanza Sleep beneath the flowers Join Date: May 2007 Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3 Age: 34	The Type IV's are that strong as they're actually leftovers from Ancient Belka. The Type I-III are ones Jail himself made, which I imagine aren't as good. Ancient tech and all that. Also, I don't think the ban on mass weapons derives from the damage they can inflict, rather its that ANYONE can use a gun. Not everyone can use magic, and those can, magic is inherently non-lethal, and furthermore, controllable. Well, there's also that Belka basically destroyed itself through mass weaponry as another reason for the TSAB to ban it. Mass weapons are dirty and messy. Magic doesn't produce any kind of harmful byproduct. __________________

2013-04-18, 15:18	Link #3243
Akiyoshi The Flame Crussader Join Date: Aug 2009	Uhm, i don't know where this "magic is inherently non-lethal" came from, sure, we know Nanoha and most mages sponsored by the TSAB learned how to use non-lethal magic, but not every mage sticks to that statement. The magic used by the Wolks can be very lethal, you could ask Zest about that xDU Teana's stray bullets were a pretty big deal on StrikerS to the point Vita gave her a good scolding for almost grievously injuring Subaru, Reinforce and U-D were both World-endangering magical beings and Stern is not called the "Starlight Destroyer" just for kicks xDU __________________ May 29 2010-2019 ...9 years ago, the day after never would be the same ~The ASFB~

2013-04-18, 15:43	Link #3244
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	The first bit of lethal magic being depicted in Nanoha came from A's, when Fate minced the Scarlet Dragon that was attacking Signum, leaving it both dead and in pieces. Nanoha magic comes with a non-lethality switch, it is not permanently non-lethal, and even that can leave lasting damage--look at Laguna. __________________

2013-04-18, 20:56	Link #3246
WarpObscura Bibliophile Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: There's this dot on the world map...	Xenahort you ninja, those were all points I wanted to make. ... :P Anyway, as Xenahort said, part of the question is indeed scale. No one's seriously saying that standard handguns and rifles will pose a threat with what we do know of Nanohaverse durability. On the other hand, if you look across fiction, there are plenty of mundanes doing crazy shit: The Death Star shatters planets. The Forerunners can cleanse an entire galaxy of life. Strike Legion consider drivebys in space viable method of orbital bombardment. Cultureverse gridfire is nova-level. Xeelee routinely break stars. Not a drop of magic in 'em. Or to quote: " You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." __________________ Yo dawg, I heard you like QB... Thanks MAEt for the av! Last edited by WarpObscura; 2013-04-18 at 21:43.

2013-04-18, 21:55	Link #3248
Tiresias Labda Prakarsa Nirwikara Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pekanbaru (UTC+07:00) Age: 37	I think in the Nanohaverse it's more "Magic is just another branch of science." __________________

2013-04-18, 11:22	Link #3241
XenahortCharybdis does whatever he wants. Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Atop a hill of words.	I guess you're right, why not - there are some irregularities. I would agree wholeheartedly - even though bear in mind that only the Type IVs are actually that good. The rest have barely a fragment of that power (having a fragment of a Jewel Seed-like thing in you can only give you that much power). But it's infinitely closer than using Nanoha, who beat the ever-living crap out of real-sized ones at a fraction of her current power, wouldn't you say? After all, the Cheytac Intervention is arguably a better weapon than, say, the old Mosin-Nagant in terms of pure specs...but at least they're still both sniper rifles. Now if we brought in the GAU-8A Avenger, then there'd be some trouble with the Bad Analogies Department waiting to happen right there.

2013-04-18, 21:46	Link #3247
XenahortCharybdis does whatever he wants. Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Atop a hill of words.	I think it is as they say: "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

2013-04-18, 21:59	Link #3249
XenahortCharybdis does whatever he wants. Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Atop a hill of words.	Hoo, guess I wouldn't contest that.

2013-04-18, 22:05	Link #3250
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Magic in Nanoha still has elements of it being magic; it's not simply technology. Magic refined by technology, certainly, but you can't explain everything with technology, like familiar contracts and how magic damage only causes pain but not death, yet can still utterly devastate the surroundings... __________________

2013-04-18, 22:14	Link #3251
Tiresias Labda Prakarsa Nirwikara Join Date: May 2010 Location: Pekanbaru (UTC+07:00) Age: 37	Pretty sure I typed Science, not Technology. As for how less-than-lethal magic attacks work? First, barrier-jackets can tank hits that would pulverize concrete. Second, take Divine Buster as an example. What is it? A concentrated stream of accelerated mana. With sufficient control, the caster can program them to slow down as soon as the enemy barrier are down and disperse the damage somewhere else, preventing lethality. Of course, as shown with Vice's case, this isn't perfect and miscalculations could result in organ damage. Third, magic damage are not always less-than-lethal. Remember Signum killing Zest? Or all the kills done by the Wolkenritter under their previous masters(is is stated that they only do less-than-lethal approaches for the sake of Hayate)? Or the Arc-en-Ciel? As for familiars...I haven't got a clue, but I remember the author of Game Theory describing a plausible explanation on how it works. Maybe I'll dig it up later. __________________

2013-04-19, 12:15	Link #3252
krisslanza Sleep beneath the flowers Join Date: May 2007 Location: Lording above all of humanity >;3 Age: 34	For the Wolkies, it's more that while magic CAN be non-lethal, their Armed Devices are inherently lethal. Magic is what makes them able to not kill people, combined with knowing where to not strike someone. You can certainly kill someone with magic though, just standard TSAB procedure is to always have the "safety" on. The Arc-en-Ciel is kinda iffy in that, I don't think it's so much the Arc ITSELF kills things, but considering it rips a big hole in space-time, that is probably pretty lethal... or at least, would probably trap you somewhere pretty unpleasant. __________________

2013-04-19, 12:27	Link #3253
Tormenk Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Gaf's Room	I'll put forth the iffyness of familiar contracts as filling in variables and the like that programming runs by. Which is the platform magic supposedly operates on in-universe. __________________ "Are you afraid of change? Or are you afraid to change?" "Wheel turns, river flows and life goes on." "Best way to kill a man, is to leave him alone." "Until you come, until we close our eyes."

2013-04-19, 14:47	Link #3256
Akiyoshi The Flame Crussader Join Date: Aug 2009	I assume the Arc-en-Ciel rip appart your molecules and spread those across different dimensions ...deader than death indeed xDU I would like to see the Augusto shooting against something non-EC-powered so we can attest the real capabilities of said weapon. __________________ May 29 2010-2019 ...9 years ago, the day after never would be the same ~The ASFB~

2013-04-19, 19:08	Link #3257
ZeroXSEED I am no one Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Inside your head	It works like vacuum blast, the arc en ciel destroy the dimensional integrity of a certain area, caused everything within it to collapse, and the feedback pressure caused by the universe trying to 'mend' the chaotic near-vacuum state into equilibrium threw the scattered subatomic materials at sufficient velocity, across the MULTI-verse A sufficiently powerful weapon of same type might even cause entire universe to collapse and implode. __________________

2013-04-22, 10:09	Link #3258
Cannonball Explosive Join Date: Mar 2013	Aye, the Arc is essentially a weaponised dimensional dislocation. Of the same kind that lost logia have a bad habit of accidently causing when things go wrong. It's a pretty terrifying beast to be honest.

2013-04-22, 11:44	Link #3259
green-link94 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: mid-childa	Has anyone noticed that everyone's description of the Arc-en-Cie's functions are contradicting each other. __________________ The Nanoha series magic dictionary translation project.