2013-06-27, 14:23 | Link #21 | ||
Sisterhood of the Desu
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: in a van by the river
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I have no desire for censorship. Just because me and CJ are uncomfortable with something doesn't mean that we're crying out for censorship!
It isn't like we're arguing over Lolita here. A book is one thing...and as someone who's read Lolita, it's Humbert Humbert who's the fool in the end. It's an anime series that 90 percent of the mainstream has never heard about. Quote:
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Is the manga less explicit on Mina's child form?
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2013-06-27, 14:25 | Link #22 | |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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Shinbo's fascination with lolis is one thing that bothers me about his work. Sometimes he keeps it under control in shows like Hidamari Sketch, but even in shows like Madoka his directorial choices annoy me. There are a number of scenes in that show where the camera pans up one of the girl's legs toward her "absolute territory" then shifts away to avoid showing any pantsu. I find that exploitative even if it is not so explicit as the lotion scene in Dance. Perhaps I'm more sensitive to these issues because I raised a daughter. Some shows I simply cannot watch, like Today in 5-2. Real ten-year-olds do not have anything like the fascination with sexuality that show portrays. I found the otherwise entertaining Hanamaru Youchien a bit "squicky" as well, not for what was shown but because of the tone of the story. I realize that small children can develop "crushes" on teachers, but right from the outset the relationship between little Anzu and teacher Tsuchida is presented by having her announce that he was "hitting" on her before the assembled parents on the school's opening day. (That's obviously the translation; I don't know what word was used in the Japanese.) That Anzu's mother encourages her daugher's feelings is even more upsetting. She even sends Anzu off visit Tsuchida's apartment on her own (she's five for goodness sake) when he calls in sick one day. The unrealism of these types of stories tells me they are designed to appeal to some of the more disturbing aspects of male otaku culture. The dakimakura industry is another example. I found this cover of eight-year-old Kuhouin Murasaki (NSFW) from Kurenai especially disgusting. That "come-hither" look in the left panel with just a hint of flesh showing above her waist says a lot about the intent of this image. That it depicts Murasaki in a manner totally at variance with the story itself angered me even more.
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Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2013-06-27 at 14:56. |
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2013-06-27, 14:34 | Link #23 |
Cross Game - I need more
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: I've moved around the American West. I've lived in Oregon, Washington, Utah, and Oklahoma
Age: 44
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Don't click on the link, don't click on the link
Link: "But I'm so shiny and clickable. Links were made for clicking." Seiji wouldn't link to anything that bad. Clicks on the link. ... Ugh... .... ... Who buys this stuff?
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2013-06-27, 14:38 | Link #25 |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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"long sold out"
Need I say more? One question this particular item raised in my mind was the relationship between the story-telling and merchandising parts of a production committee. I could imagine the creative staff at Brains-Base being unhappy with this item's existence, but the production committee is focused on total revenues. I've seen some unauthorized dakimakura for other shows that were worse (more explicit), but this looks like an "official" product. I wonder what then fifteen-year-old Yuuki Aoi thought of this item if she saw this when it was released. There are a couple of episodes where Murasaki and Shinkurou bathe together at a public bath. Even though she is entirely nude in these scenes she is not sexualized at all. In fact she is realistically portrayed with a rather chunky body that eight-year-old girls often have.
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Last edited by SeijiSensei; 2013-06-27 at 14:58. |
2013-06-27, 15:02 | Link #26 |
Banned
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Well, she's a thousand year old vampire in a little girls body... The issue should only be..... why not in all but a little girl's? That should be the issue... Seeing a loli naked never turns me on even in H.... I could name two to three... hehehe.. but that's another thing... anyway... it's fiction...
@ CJ Walker > Try Kodomo no Jikan.... the uncut and uncensored version... Last edited by NoemiChan; 2013-06-27 at 15:34. |
2013-06-27, 15:09 | Link #27 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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For example I can name a few games that let you play in the role of the villain, for example the popular games from Rockstar like GTA, bullies, man hunt. There is no doubt that the selling point of these games is the fact that they allow the player to do evil acts, may that be theft, physical assault and even murder. There is no sugarcoating about that, there's no "artistic" finality nor a clear intention to explore and portray "darkness". But there is the fact, that these games let you play the villain by clearly showing that everything that you do is villainous, they don't let you kill, rob and punch while telling you "this is perfectly good and justifiable". In my opinion the real discriminating factor between an acceptable work and a morally questionable one is not what is shown but how it is shown. Even if in both cases there is a clear intention to appease to some human's darkest desire, one is telling you that it's wrong (and that is your cue that you should never bring that outside the world of fiction), the other tells you it's fine (and therefore doesn't provide the user with a good reason to not do the same in the real world). Of course people might or might not care about that message but in that case the blame solely rests on them. Because of that I don't think that Carmageddon is morally questionable, while "ethnic cleansing" clearly is. I use the same logic for anything that concerns "loli". The simple fact that a fictional work shows you naked underaged girls or boys is not in itself morally questionable (and in most countries is absolutely legal), but it becomes so if the work shows clear sexual interactions (not necessarily intercourse) between kids and adults in a completely positive light. Now I must admit that I haven't seen Vampire Bund so I can't really judge it, but as far as I can tell, the loli involved is actually more than 200 years old? In that case I don't think it can be said that the shows justifies pedophilia in any way. Of course it can be argued that the show still appeases to user's desire to see young naked bodies, but on the same degree that games like Man Hunt caters to people that are looking for the experience of committing murder and causing harm in a virtual contest. Now it is pretty understandable that to some (most?) people loli fanservices are repugnant, but repugnant and immoral are two completely different things, a distinction that sadly not many understand. As long as the argument is that "x is disgusting", there's nothing to debate, as long as it is recognized that that which is considered "disgusting" or "beautiful" is absolutely subjective. Conversely if the argument is that "x is immoral" then a proper rational explanation is necessary. Quote:
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2013-06-27, 15:21 | Link #28 | |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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2013-06-27, 15:28 | Link #29 | |
Sisterhood of the Desu
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: in a van by the river
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Let me just state again: I do not have a problem with sexuality or nudity in anime. However, when it comes to children, I can't. I just can't go there. And I got thru about three episodes of that show before I dropped it. The joke of that show stopped being cute the minute the mother was all, 'My five year old loves her teacher and wants to marry him? OKAY DOKEY THATS COOL!' And I will NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER EVAH purchase one of those body pillows. I don't care who's on it. THEY ARE CREEPY AS HELL!!!
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2013-06-27, 15:30 | Link #30 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I must admit that I do myself find disturbing the blatant sexualization of prepubescent characters, I had that kind of problem while watching Brigadoon (and that's still on the soft area). However like I said earlier if one were to tell me "I like that" (which is the problem that CJ is exposing) I wouldn't have anything to say, because well as long as it's fictional I can't say that there's anything morally wrong with that. Of course we all agree that to find that sexually arousing you need to be sexually deviant, but not more than let's say necrophilia and feet fetishism.
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2013-06-27, 16:02 | Link #31 | |
Me at work
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The one comforting thing I have with some otakus fascination for lolis is that at least none of it is real, so if they want to watch grade schoolers get raped (NSFW) no real life girls are being armed in the process. It's only when real life girls get involved that I get a real squick, for example take this picture (NSFW) of Ogura Yui and Ishihara Kaori , both girls were 14 and 16 and I can't help but wonder "what are their parents thinking?", same thing when I see a 15 year old got cast as the lead to OniAi.
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2013-06-27, 16:22 | Link #32 |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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"When will the checks start arriving?"
I had a similar reaction to the photo (since suppressed by Kodansha) of a middle-school-aged boy with his hands over AKB idol Kasai Tomomi's nude breasts. I think the Japanese police overreacted by calling this "child pornography," but I did wonder about his parents' finding this acceptable.
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2013-06-27, 17:12 | Link #33 | |||
Japanese Culture Fan
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Age: 33
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Does everything in entertainment need to send a meaningful or good message to its viewers? Some anime show naked fictional girls, and depending on the art style and character design, I end up enjoying the result. It's that simple. Quote:
I can suspend my belief for many weird things in anime, but Hanamaru Youchien was downright bizarre. |
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2013-06-27, 17:31 | Link #34 | ||
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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(It's interesting to me that of Shinbo's loli vampire shows, the only one where the vampire is actually underaged (Moon Phase) is considerably tamer, to the point where Funimation was able to target it to girls in their marketting materials and I know at least one local cosplayer who saw it when she was at most 13 since she cosplayed the main character at that age. Given that she's grown up now, I'm occassionally tempted to ask her if she was ever aware of some of the subtext in the show.) Quote:
(And yes, "Americans freak out about nudity" is a widespread stereotype. At the very least, this thread establishes for me that it's known in both Canada and Europe.)
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2013-06-27, 18:41 | Link #35 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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For the sake of the argument, let me put forward a few stereotypical viewpoints for this sort of discussion (though this isn't an all-inclusive list): 1. "I am repulsed/offended by the scene(s), and do not see any redeeming value in these scene(s) or the work on the whole for including it/them." 2. "I am conflicted about the scene(s); I consider the content immoral/disturbing/wrong, but still found it somewhat arousing/appealing. Is it okay to admit that?" 3. "I found the scene(s) to be a bit disturbing/uncomfortable, but that alone did not prevent me from seeing value in the scene(s) and/or in the work overall." 4. "I probably wouldn't have noticed the scene(s) that much if not for everyone else making a big deal about it. It just didn't phase me that much." 5. "I enjoyed the scene(s) very much, and would seek out works that include this sort of content for that reason alone." I should probably also add... 0. "I didn't watch the show or scene(s) in question, but feel strongly enough about the issue on principle that I'm going to argue a position anyway." Although -- as I said -- this isn't an all-inclusive list (everyone could probably add their own), it's still pretty important for people who most identify with 1 to not assume everyone who doesn't feel the same way is a 5. And likewise, you can't necessarily assume that everyone's true opinions are exactly what they seem either (some people may debate like a 1, but actually be a 2 or even a 5, or vice-versa -- I've absolutely seen people who argue the 5 position while really believing 1, for some strange reason). And yeah, don't discount the "0s" who are a total wildcard in the debate. Like I said, that's why these topics don't tend to go anywhere useful. This topic is too sensitive, and it's very hard to get a "true read" on anyone's real feelings about the topic because people just don't want to talk about it. It's way too easy to pitch the other side of the debate as an "extremist", even if their view is considerably more moderate than the real "extreme" view. I'm at least impressed the thread hasn't imploded already given the rocky start, but I'm not holding much hope. tl;dr: This thread is probably not long for this world because people.
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2013-06-27, 19:24 | Link #36 |
AS Oji-kun
Join Date: Nov 2006
Age: 74
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I don't really care so much about the viewers. People are going to watch what they want to watch and buy what they want to buy. I'm more interested in why material with sexualized children is as common as it is. (Let's get past the "because it sells" reason.)
Obviously this is not something unique to anime/manga or to the 21st century. Genji Monogatari is a thousand years old, after all. (There's a reason why Kuhouin Murasaki is called Murasaki.) Perhaps there's an equally long history of sexualized children in Western media that I am unaware of, but if so, it's been kept pretty suppressed. I suspect Catholicism in medieval Europe and later has something to do with this. I'm not trying to engage in cultural stereotyping here either. Nevertheless it does seem to me that sexualization of children is more widespread in Japanese media than in Western media, and that difference does lead to raised eyebrows and sometimes outright disgust among viewers here in the West. As you say, discussions like this can quickly degenerate into flame wars among subgroups of the anime audience. I would hope we could have a more mature conversation about the origins of this phenomenon. What about Japanese literature, for instance, or modern art works? Are sexualized children largely only characteristic of manga and anime, or are they common in other types of modern Japanese culture as well? The usual tack is to blame those damned otaku, but are they really so uncharacteristic of the rest of Japanese culture, both high culture and popular culture? What about material aimed at older readers and viewers? Is this a common theme in manga for older audiences than late-night anime viewers? What about other Asian cultures beside Japan's?
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2013-06-27, 19:35 | Link #37 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
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On the contrary most of the anime that's be discussed here are definitely not mainstream as they air in late night slots. |
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2013-06-27, 19:43 | Link #38 | |
blinded by blood
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2013-06-27, 20:00 | Link #39 |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
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I love how people in this thread and throughout this board crucify and hang countless others whom they have never met at all just because of cultural bias based on the entertainment they enjoy
I don't like loli-centric stuff in general purely because most tend to be quite crappy but I say this. You think the average otaku who loves this stuff is more dangerous than your respected upright member of society who has probably sacked god knows how many of his peers (as a starting point)? We are not bloody talking about child rapists and murderers here for fucks sake. Or people who enjoy blood games You may say you disapprove of a certain type of fiction but behind that, you dare say you aren't judging those who enjoy it as well? Again, the rash of no-plot loli stuff gets on my nerves but not more so than such holier-than-thou attitudes.
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2013-06-27, 20:07 | Link #40 | |
Blooming on the mountain
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Deep in their roots, all flowers keep the light....
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But personally I feel there should be a practical step further than that, and that is that one's "being grounded IRL" should directly, and deliberately dictate or feed into what one exposes oneself to in the first place. That's a whole 'nother can of worms, and maybe not worth going into here, though I feel it should tie into all aspects of one's life both "outside oneself" - responsibilities at work, interactions with friends, relatives and other people, with one's political system or government, with one's immediate family, etc., etc. - and especially "inside oneself". If you disagree with someone that is fine and is one thing. If you disagree with someone and come across as a hypocrite or convey "some other issue" actually going on inside oneself that has been triggered then you are ultimately (imo at least) not contributing to a real "solution", but rather to the polarization and artificial dichotomy this and other issues in other areas that arise. It is better to take quiet, practical and firm steps towards becoming an "organic whole" individually and from that exercising one's responsibilities to others as well than flailing about either intellectually or emotionally. Of course everyone will have plenty of times when we fall short of this and everyone is (hopefully?) continuing to grow and mature, but imo having a little humility while at the same time sticking to one's guns as one understands them at that point in time would go a long way. Like I said, can of worms. ^^
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