2013-08-13, 15:22 | Link #8641 |
Goat Herder
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
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But you're not proving that Stella wasn't killed by such factors, which is where it matters. Our evidence has applied to Stella, yours hasn't, so ultimately you're just going off on tangents while calling us all wrong because you don't like anything implying Kira did bad.
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2013-08-13, 15:28 | Link #8642 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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You keep arguing against the idea of "Kira did no kill Stella." because you have this insane dillusion that I am tryint to defend his righteousness. I am saying "we have no way of knowing WHAT killed Stella." To do that I don't have to prove WHAT killed her. Actually, proving what killed her would disprove my entire statement. What I have to prove is "Stella COULD have lived through this." and "Stella COULD have been killed by something else." Both statements have been thoroughly discussed. Are you all caught up now? |
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2013-08-13, 16:07 | Link #8643 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: On the edge of insanity
Age: 44
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Uh no Deadpool the burden of proof is on you to prove something other than Kira's actions killed Stella because you're the one who started this whole mess by saying the cause of her death was vague.
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2013-08-13, 16:15 | Link #8644 | ||||||||||||||||
Praise the sun!
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sweden
Age: 34
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Oh wait, they did a RETCON and removed said helmet from the dvd/SE. Please re-read the wikipedia section regarding retcon's since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Quote:
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It's pretty simple, really. Mwu being a really good example, he sustained a injury from being impaled by some shrapnel while fighting Rau, his wound is shown bleeding and he is in pain from it. actually, they show that again in episode 49 when the Strike is badly damaged from the fight with Providence. They have a habit of showing when a pilot sustains injuries in the CE'verse, Athrun passing out > taken out of the IJ's cockpit, blood everywhere. it's all there, except for Stella, since she didn't sustain any. Quote:
Stella not being fine before being pushed into super-extended-healing bed Stella being fine after getting up of super-extended-healing bed. Pretty simple? it's all there, 1 + 1 = 2, but you seem to have a problem with math, so i'll draw you a picture instead. Quote:
Stella sustained no physical injuries from the Impulse slashing the cockpit open nor Kira nailing the Destroy with his railgun. Quote:
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She was fine until the Destroy was stabbed in the Beam cannons, causing several explosions fatally wounding her from blast injuries. Quote:
I understand the point you are trying to make, but you picked the worst possible example of doing so. Stella's death is so clear it doesn't need to be explained in detail. Stella died due to the Destroy exploding all around her, there is no may or maybes involved, we are shown everything in the actual episode, both the cause and death. Yet again, you have no evidence except your own speculations to support your claim. You've lost, please drop it before you make a bigger fool out of yourself than you already have. |
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2013-08-13, 16:51 | Link #8645 | ||||
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Give proof if you are omniscient. Quote:
Look, you're arguing about this whole mess. If you want to be proven right by the others provide both evidences to support your claim 1. Prove what Kira did to her will absolutely not be able to kill her. Ruling him out completely 2. Show that the show deny "Kira is the killer" statement of Shinn Simple. Don't twist some facts just for supporting your argument. What are you doing up until now is "I said this and there are these proofs that somehow fit for the convenient of my argument". You are not the judge whether your evidences or argument are correct, the others are. Oh and please don't give this "I have already given those" statement again. The evidences you gave has already been proven to be insufficient to support your argument. Your whole stance of "The killer is vague" will only work after you managed to disprove the obvious fact, and that is only by making sure Kira is ruled out completely or the show denied him. Quote:
The thing is you're assuming your argument is already perfect along with the "required" evidences to support it. Again, if you can prove both points I mentioned above (or rather, just prove the first one) you win. Otherwise, you will be just repeating the same old statement that nobody will really take seriously. Last edited by Kirayuki; 2013-08-13 at 17:12. |
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2013-08-13, 17:28 | Link #8646 |
Tenshi's Defense Squadron
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Fighting against those who oppress the system
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Oh mygosh, this argument is still going? It wasn't Kira that killed Stella, it wasn't Shinn either. You want to know who killed Stella?
The DESTROY DID, if it weren't exploding on the inside (and taking a massive fall) then Stellar wouldn't have died! See, there! HAH!
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2013-08-13, 17:59 | Link #8649 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2011
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In order: 1. No shit that all of the wounds etc would add up. But the FINAL blow is what truly kills the person, in this case Kira's attack. All of her previous wounds were quite survivable (going by the animation, and supposed properties of the pilot suit. Normally that amount of shrapnel would be fatal if not treated immediately) 2. There is certainty: What the show presents 3. First sentence: Well IT IS, thats what the show presented (Kira dealing the final blow). The show makes it so obvious that you barely have to think about it. Yes we know your argument, and have been refuting it from the start. Sure you are free to think even deeper into what happened 4. You don't need to repeatedly define this, were not stupid you know. Its actually a little insulting 5. The fact said characters survived IS NOT proof. Each one had plot armor and retcons going for them, which are easily the best get-out-of-jail free cards in any fictional form of media. Stella on the other hand had none, as it was in the PLOT that she would die It is a HUGE point of importance that show keeps things simple for the viewers to follow. Otherwise if they had everyone thinking along the same lines as you ("What if....it could have been this or that etcetc") then they clearly failed big time. The fact that everyone KNOWS that the show CLEARY gave Kira the final blow is proof enough WE dont need to provide any form of evidence as to what happened as the show clearly showed us what it wanted. YOU on the other hand are posing what in science we call an "extraordinary claim" or in simple terms something that goes against what have already been established as common knowledge (eg saying that gravity does not work as we believe it does). To prove such a claim, large amounts of supporting data is needed. However as you are drawing from a fictional show, and are dealing with "maybes" and "what ifs", make your stance extremely hard to back other that conjecture and/or opinion EDIT: dear god you guys are so fast in posting responses that mine looks somewhat outdated now |
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2013-08-13, 18:37 | Link #8650 | ||||||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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You realize of course that no one is arguing that Stella lived, yes?
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Consider: A man is bitten by an animal. The same man is then caught in a concussive blast. The later dies with no visible injuries. Can you be 100% certain of what killed this man without an autopsy? Quote:
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I asked, in a world where all of that happens, are you going to state that it is 100% impossible to survive the exploding Destroy? The problem is that the damage that killed her was INTERNAL. Therefore, proving that she had no visible external damage does NOT preclude her from having INTERNAL damage. Prove she was fine. Since you compare her problem to drug withdrawal, doing some reasearch on the long term effects of drug withdrawal may help you see she may not have been 100% back to normal after all. And this is ignoring her being an Extended. We have unknown drugs, unknown physionomy, unknown treatment... And a stone clad guarantee that everything is fine? Quote:
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OR she received internal injuries. Which could have come from any one of those three sources. Quote:
Andrew was supposed to die. Dearka was not supposed to defect. Kira was supposed to die. Athrun was supposed to be maimed. Mu was supposed to die. You ignore Mu's survival as cannon because he was meant to die. I am asking why you don't treat the OTHER changes from the original plan the same way? Quote:
We just don't know. I am really doubting that. Quote:
CE universe is fiction. Nothing happens there that we are not privy to. Therefore we know every single event to ever happen in that universe. As the audience, we are all omniscient. Because their universe is bound to what WE experience. No. Quote:
Did you just ask me to disprove my point in order to prove my point? Quote:
All of the attacks are believably survivable and all of her attacks are believably fatal. We can play probability all we want, but in the end we DO NOT KNOW. Quote:
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This proves that any and all of her wounds are indeed believably surviveable. Hell, people in real life have survived wounds worse than hers. Just ask Juliane Koepcke... Quote:
Having a lot of people take the easy answer doesn't make it right. |
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2013-08-13, 19:23 | Link #8651 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
Praise the sun!
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sweden
Age: 34
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Yes, seeing how no pilot that has ever piloted a exploding Destroy came out of it alive, lol. Hell, no animated pilot of a Destroy has survived, ever. Quote:
She was fine up until Kira stabbed the cannons She was not fine after Kira stabbed the cannons how do we know that? She was shown to be dying and shivering in pain while Shinn was holding her. Anime's have a habit of showing when character's gets injured, either by coughing up blood, SHOWING the actual injury,showing that they are in pain or having them die after they are injured, of course, if they have a last name, expect a speech before dying. Quote:
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After x amount of time in the Super-healing bed and she was shown to be fine. Did you watch the actual episode? because it's right there, in. the. actual. show. Quote:
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Also, the only non-coordinator that survived there was Mwu, the rest of them all had Coordinator bodies and could sustain injuries greater than any Natural. Stella included. While Stella's mental functions, reaction time, Strength was enhanced due to drugs, there is no sign at all to prove her bodies endurance was on par with a coordinator. Quote:
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And sorry to break it to you, Rule of anime: #1 - Law of Metaphysical Irregularity- The normal laws of physics do not apply. Quote:
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2013-08-13, 19:32 | Link #8652 |
Tenshi's Defense Squadron
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Fighting against those who oppress the system
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Damnit, ok. New theory:
Stellar didn't die in Shinn's arms, she just fell asleep/unconscious because she felt so tired. And Shinn, thinking she was dead, dropped her in the lake which drowned her. There, Shinn should be charged with manslaughter
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2013-08-13, 19:44 | Link #8653 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2011
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1. No shit, nothing in this world is 100% (except for death at some point) 2. First point depends on the situation. In general they ARE all survivable, but thats under the assumption that she will receive prompt if not immediate medical attention . Which is not the case here as she is fighting in a MS. Second point is not entirely true. The first attack which exposed her cockpit WAS NOT fatal (if it was she would have died immediately due to the beam hitting her and this argument would not exist), it only scared her. The second attack from the Freedom which inflicted shrapnel injury WAS NOT fatal as there was zero signs of bleeding/skin penetration despite all the shrapnel (this is all going by what the animation presented, if she was bleeding like a stuck pig I would be more inclined to believe your case that the final blow may not have been a cause of death). The final blow WAS NOT IMMEDIATELY fatal as she did not die in the explosions, but rather a few minutes later in Shinn's arms (as such this is the most believable case, as well as what the directors were going for to advance the plot with Shinn's revenge and dramatic purposes). While it MAY be true for what you are arguing, the general consensus is that she died of the final blow, and up to this point, nobody have thought to dig this deep into the subject until you. And in the end, its completely pointless as the show already showed what it wanted us to think 3. They are asking you to prove your point. Answering with "vague" as your whole point is not definite proof, its your opinion/conjecture on the matter. They want hard lined facts, which with your argument of "vague" is near impossible to provide as all of this can be interpreted differently (evidence you and others above posts, though all seem to err on one side of the argument). Its like asking a Catholic to prove the existence of God, who then answers God exists because he wrote the Bible. Thats not proof. To this So for this whole argument you argue the exact cause of her death is "vague". Now others ask "what evidence do you have to prove the exact cause of her death is vague?". To which you supplied the other instances where she took damage as possible causes. HOWEVER the way that the first two instances were prevented on screen does not back up that they could have been a cause for her death. As noted above slashing open the cockpit did nothing other than mental damage, the shrapnel blast showed zero signs of physically damaging her through the suit. However she died shortly after the last blow. This is what everyone goes on. WHAT WAS PRESENTED ON SCREEN, not what could have/maybe happened when digging deeper into the process, which is unescessary as Kira getting the final blow in and Stella dying shortly after was all that was ever wanted to be conveyed 4. Yeah, but those characters all were scripted not to die in Destiny. Stella had the death flag from the moment she and Shinn ended up in that cave and become attached. And you cant use examples of no-names/other people in the war that survived such. Also real life examples are completely irrelevant as this is FICTION, and ANIME on top of that, where the impossible is possible. What you said does NOT prove anything 5. Point 1. That depends. First it depends on whether that the first thing they are told really is a new piece of info. If so it is easily accepted as we need a basis to start with/to go on until further corrected. People fight change true, but that also depends on the person and what the topic is about. Resistance particularly happens with things that shapes their world views/what have been the basis of their life (eg religion in particular) or when something threatens their autonomy. Education levels highly play a part also in whether people just take information for granted. Point two: yes it does not necessarily makes it right, but in many cases a huge majority is an indication that there is something there. In this case you happen to be the 1% who is arguing against a scene which the majority of people (who have watched the show) views as common knowledge. Also in this case the easy answer is the right answer as thats what the directors wanted everyone to know, the easy answer, "Kira killed Stella, now the plot moves along" This is not some sort of conspiracy theory where we need to delve into further facts and maybe's. Its a clear cut presentation to move a plot along. AND its FICTION, hardly something you need to bust braincells on. Only the simple stuff matters here. And thats "Kira killed Stella to advance to plot, The End" IF you changed your argument to "Stella's exact cause of death was vague due to lack of details in the animation and crappy writing" then I'd think you'd be off to a MUCH better start How you got this notion of the cause of her death being "vague" and thought to bring it up is beyond me, as in the end there is nothing to gain from it. If you want to treat it that way then sure, fine by me, but dont go thinking you can have all of us thinking the same thing, as its a waste of our time when something have been easily established @EVERYONE (I really mean everyone on here who participated in this wacky debate) I say just drop it, let Deadpool think what he wants while we stick to our views on the matter, in the end this is gonna get ALL of us NOWHERE and is a COMPLETE waste of ALL our time |
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2013-08-13, 19:57 | Link #8654 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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As a side note to this debate.... Something I just noticed watching Seed remaster again.
One button can do it all. Kira presses the button to duck Miguel's attack. Lacus presses the same button( in the Aegis) and tells Rau to stop his attack. Ok back to the stupid debate.... |
2013-08-13, 20:37 | Link #8655 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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And I again I ask you, how do you KNOW? Internal injuries aren't visible nor do they have any guaranteed signs, and the time table while untreated is death between anywhere between 10 minutes and 10 hours.
Don't guess, don't believe, KNOW. How do you KNOW? Quote:
You brought it up! Quote:
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If the RetCon happened a YEAR before Stella's death, why is it irrelevant? Quote:
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I'd ask why not, but I already know the answer. You're too personally invested in this argument to be reasonable. Quote:
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There is such a thing as a short term treatment. You can feel sick, then feel better, then get worse. Quote:
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What matters is THAT they lived, not the why. Quote:
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Irrelevant since Mu, Neo and Sting all survived comparable/worse damage. Even if you somehow want to believe the Extended program doesn't help resistance to damage, it wouldn't preclude those three events. And those three are enough to prove this is survivable. Quote:
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Yup. ONE of them did. Quote:
and in CE, it IS the norm. Quote:
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Again, we see her being rocked back and forth pretty hard. We have no idea what kind of internal damage, if any, was received here either. Quote:
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Therein lies the problem. The final hit doesn't look deadly at all. Surely something killed her (since she is dead), but none of her individual wounds are clearly the cause. Hence, vagueness. Quote:
The SAME people who scripted Stella's death. This is about the rules of the universe. As per established rules, being inside an exploding mobile suit is not necessarily lethal. Some people die from it, so it CAN be lethal. But most people live. Those are the rules of the universe as established over the past 80 episodes. Quote:
Then it is irrelevant, isn't it? Quote:
I can only tell you what they DID. And what they DID was craft a death scene where the cause is actually vague. Quote:
And since, while I made it clear that I feel it was vague on purpose, I've also made it clear it is my opinion, and the opinion that it was vague because the animators suck was actually reasonable and possible (even if I disagree). Quote:
Then again, can you imagine how complicated the controls would have to be for it to work? |
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2013-08-13, 21:43 | Link #8656 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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And since we don't KNOW this theory is perfectly plausible. Because everything the show doesn't word for word tell us means anything could have happened. Because we don't KNOW. I personally propose that Shinn was kidnapped off screen and replaced with a crazier clone. It's possible. After all the show doesn't tell us that the Shinn we see for the whole show is always the same Shinn. We don't KNOW. |
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2013-08-13, 22:57 | Link #8657 | ||||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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To start it off, if you don't think the killer matters why you would argue about vagueness in the first place ?. It doesn't worth your time because it's not relevant in the grand scope of things, in your book. However, your action clearly shows that you did indeed care for it which means it does matter. Your whole position about "Stella could have survived", "The killer is vague" are essentially trying to disprove every action of all parties can kill her 100%. There is 1 main culprit, get this into your head first. Even if it's all the combination of the injuries, the final blow and the greatest injury was given by 1 person. We've already proven how she couldn't die from the previous 2 causes, which only leaves 1 possibility. And in fact, you can't prove the show denying "Kira is the killer" too. Your argument regarding how others survived worse scenarios is backed by twisted facts that are exploiting the loophole of the universe (read : RetCon and Plot-Armor) Quote:
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Retcon and Plot-Armor Matters. More So In SEED Universe Last edited by Kirayuki; 2013-08-13 at 23:52. |
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2013-08-13, 23:01 | Link #8658 | |
Tenshi's Defense Squadron
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Fighting against those who oppress the system
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2013-08-14, 02:00 | Link #8660 | |||
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Join Date: Sep 2011
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Since it is your opinion I'll leave it at this Good day to you (PS. I do sincerely hope that you use your time better than just arguing on here. Same goes for everyone else who is actively participating) Quote:
OK I GIVE You sir, win the internet Deadpool's argument makes much more sense given this comment. Im gonna take this as the exact cause of her death Thanks for the laugh |
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mecha, seed it and weep |
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