Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

If he won't let nations refuse the plan why would he let individuals leave? In fact where on Earth would they go? They'd have to basically give up their lives and head off into space somewhere.

Because while nations and groups can wage wars, individuals can't. The Destiny Plan can be derailed if other hostile nations remain, but won't end if dissidents are left free to leave.

The choices of the dissidents are to accept and adapt, to accept and resent but retain the right to leave, or to leave. Just because they don't like it doesn't mean they have to leave. If they stay, though, they'll have to play by the new rules. Just like anyone else in a country where a controversial new law is passed.

But of course noone will probably want to refuse Durandal after the nation of Orb, and maybe Scandinavia were Requiemed into oblivion (which is what would have happened had Lacus faction not attacked him).

They also probably wouldn't have been threatened if Orb, you know, hadn't been waging war and been out to stop the Destiny Plan and Durandle at all costs even before ZAFT revealed its laser and threatened their approaching fleet with it.

So Durandal will basically terrify the world into obeying and ruling through fear. And any nation that decides they don't like the plan afterwards would also be threatened with Requiem. So while they'll be no wars peace will also have been effectively enforced through giant gun point.

The Destiny Plan is a world-government scheme. Once the Plan is enacted, there won't be nations to rise up. Then again, once the Plan is enacted, there won't be people who want to rise up either, so the Requiem is only needed to cooerce the nations that would otherwise refuse to join in and, I don't know, attack ZAFT on the idea that the Destiny Plan is abhorrent and Durandal should be overthrown.

Though from your tone, I'm not sure you think anyone would do that, so...

Also I don't support taxation, national security, or public safety at the expense of any other person either. But people do it and I'm not in a position to stop them.

Then I'm sorry, but either you don't realize that you're wrong or you are an absolute anarchist. All order comes at the cost of individual freedom of actions, and all organization comes with operational costs that the members and individuals have to bear.

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Because while nations and groups can wage wars, individuals can't. The Destiny Plan can be derailed if other hostile nations remain, but won't end if dissidents are left free to leave.

Except there is nowhere to leave: "space" is mostly vacuum, not exactly the place where a lone individual with no personal resources can survive on it's own.
And anyway even if the idea of a "space reservation" was implemented, people would have to hide, desperate not to be noticed, because to work toward it's objective: Final Peace, the DP would have to be implemented on the whole solar system.

(Darn, this idea of "reservation" for the discontents of an "ideal" society just reminds me of Heinlein.)

Let's say disagreeing people were allowed to leave for the asteroid belt or the outer solar system, what would deter them from building a nation? Nation which, being based on values contrary to the DP, would be resolutely hostile toward the DP, with a new large scale war possible.
For the DP to work, no such community, colony or nation would be allowed to congeal. And anyway Requiem would require nothing more than an upgrade or a "sisterweapon" to have the whole solar system in range.

(A lot of points taken from Crossbone Gundam here )

The choices of the dissidents are to accept and adapt, to accept and resent but retain the right to leave, or to leave. Just because they don't like it doesn't mean they have to leave. If they stay, though, they'll have to play by the new rules. Just like anyone else in a country where a controversial new law is passed.
They also probably wouldn't have been threatened if Orb, you know, hadn't been waging war and been out to stop the Destiny Plan and Durandle at all costs even before ZAFT revealed its laser and threatened their approaching fleet with it.
The Destiny Plan is a world-government scheme. Once the Plan is enacted, there won't be nations to rise up. Then again, once the Plan is enacted, there won't be people who want to rise up either, so the Requiem is only needed to cooerce the nations that would otherwise refuse to join in and, I don't know, attack ZAFT on the idea that the Destiny Plan is abhorrent and Durandal should be overthrown.

Like exposed above, world-government is not nearly enough, stellar-government is already required at this point, and even interstellar depending on the technology.
And for it to work, discontent cannot be allowed to be voiced. Leaving people thus oppressed.

Saying that all is gonna be happy if you all got to do what you are best at is pure idealism crap that doesn't work on humans, who have dreams, ambitions, and are most of the time irrationals...

Then I'm sorry, but either you don't realize that you're wrong or you are an absolute anarchist. All order comes at the cost of individual freedom of actions, and all organization comes with operational costs that the members and individuals have to bear.

So the costs:
-individual freedom
-police state necessary to eliminate eventual menace.
-intelligence agency required to track eventual menace down to peoples minds if necessary.
-bureaucracy and aforementioned agency large enough to cover a stellar empire.
-special police force to eliminate factions/menace (FAITH?).
-Large Weapon of Doom to eliminate/subjugate factions/menace.

[Aquaman OS]

Orb said no to the Destiny Plan, and Durandal got pissed but had to Requiem EA first. After seeing his big gun Orb moblized to stop him. What do you not see about that? Please watch episode 48 again and tell me that Durandal does not look like he plans to force Orb to join the Destiny Plan or die.

Of course you seem to think the entire world should have embraced the Destiny Plan no questions asked. Even if they had previously had reason to find Durandal untrustworthy. And even if they had previously happy non evil lives and had no reason to wage war.

In fact the whole Clyne Faction seems to think the DP is great idea from their conversation and the only snag was that Durandal was behind it and they didn't trust him to play fair. And then not 5 minutes later he reveals that he took the weapon that had killed tons of his people and was willing to use it. Then they decided to act because Orb would refuse the plan (because they didn't trust Durandal not because they thought it was bad) and that meant that it would probably get Requiemed. So they attacked purely to Destroy Requiem and then Neo Genesis as it turned out Durandal built his own WMD.

I believe humanity is inheritly good and there is no reason at all to put other people out. The bad people will get God's judgement on them. Guess I'm an anarchist.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by JMvS

Except there is nowhere to leave: "space" is mostly vacuum, not exactly the place where a lone individual with no personal resources can survive on it's own.[

No one is saying their going to be thrown out of an airlock. It's in the DP's own interest to have a release valve, so they can provide what's needed. Doing so, in fact, let's them keep a great deal of influence over the frontier.

And anyway even if the idea of a "space reservation" was implemented, people would have to hide, desperate not to be noticed, because to work toward it's objective: Final Peace, the DP would have to be implemented on the whole solar system.

Not really: that line of thinking only holds valid so long as interplanetary warfare is a threat. No one on Mars is pressing to invade Earth, after all. And so long as there isn't a threat being organized (which the DP can always interrupt), theres no need to hunt the very people you were glad to see leave. The DP wants the people who can't stand it to leave.

Let's say disagreeing people were allowed to leave for the asteroid belt or the outer solar system, what would deter them from building a nation? Nation which, being based on values contrary to the DP, would be resolutely hostile toward the DP, with a new large scale war possible.

For the DP to work, no such community, colony or nation would be allowed to congeal. And anyway Requiem would require nothing more than an upgrade or a "sisterweapon" to have the whole solar system in range.

(A lot of points taken from Crossbone Gundam here )

A) The dissidents from Mars don't despise the Destiny Plan and want it overthrown. They don't like it, but they don't pathologically hate it either.
B) The DP can keep a great deal of influence over the frontier just by facilitating it, and can easily keep the dissidents from congealing into a nation. Just by building colonies spread across the system from Plut to Mercury, the DP can keep the dissidents separate. Follow that with basic things from trade preferences to political and economic support, and you can keep the individual colony groups divided.

[QUOTE]
Like exposed above, world-government is not nearly enough, stellar-government is already required at this point, and even interstellar depending on the technology.
And for it to work, discontent cannot be allowed to be voiced. Leaving people thus oppressedWho says discontent can't be voiced? Successful authoritarian states know how to strike a good balance of public discontent and keeping to a unyielding ideology. Consider Singapore, for example; not a western liberal democracy, but not overly oppressive police state either.

So the costs:
-individual freedom

Arguable, especially in the context of Seed, where being born to the wrong parents equals total discrimination, or murder.

-police state necessary to eliminate eventual menace.

Not really, as I mentioned above.

-intelligence agency required to track eventual menace down to peoples minds if necessary.

Why? There's no need for thought police. People who hate the system enough will leave on their own violation. The DP would need more economic watchers, not thought police.

-bureaucracy and aforementioned agency large enough to cover a stellar empire.

Mars disagrees, and not really that much bigger than the combined bureaucracies already existing among the countries. How's this especially bad?

-special police force to eliminate factions/menace (FAITH?).

I call it: the State Department.

-Large Weapon of Doom to eliminate/subjugate factions/menace.

"Big Bags of money and colonies across the solar system.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Orb said no to the Destiny Plan, and Durandal got pissed but had to Requiem EA first. After seeing his big gun Orb moblized to stop him. What do you not see about that? Please watch episode 48 again and tell me that Durandal does not look like he plans to force Orb to join the Destiny Plan or die.

Orb mobilized to fight Durandal as soon as the battle of Orb was over, even before the Destiny Plan. Actually, Orb was already fighting him, and Cagelli didn't even try to strike peace. They were already intending to carry on the fight even before they heard of the Destiny Plan.

No one is denying that Durandle would have crushed Orb after it decided to fight him.

Of course you seem to think the entire world should have embraced the Destiny Plan no questions asked. Even if they had previously had reason to find Durandal untrustworthy. And even if they had previously happy non evil lives and had no reason to wage war.

I asked before. Who is happy with the status quo? The great cities of the world are razed. The coasts were annihalated. Everyone learned that they were led by the nose to hate and fight eachother by LOGOS.

Who is happy with the status quo?

But yes, the Seed people deserve the Destiny Plan.

In fact the whole Clyne Faction seems to think the DP is great idea from their conversation and the only snag was that Durandal was behind it and they didn't trust him to play fair. And then not 5 minutes later he reveals that he took the weapon that had killed tons of his people and was willing to use it. Then they decided to act because Orb would refuse the plan (because they didn't trust Durandal not because they thought it was bad) and that meant that it would probably get Requiemed. So they attacked purely to Destroy Requiem and then Neo Genesis as it turned out Durandal built his own WMD.

No they were already out to fight him; they were out for him even before he captured the AF's doom laser. Hence why we had the shopping episode, where the Lacus crew were rumminating about Durandle's villainy just after millions of coordinators were killed.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

You know what? I am done with the argument. Everything I want to say has been said. It appears there are those who think it is a great idea to rule through violence and "remove" people who disagree with them, and that somehow that would make everyone happy. I guess I will never understand such people.

And don't give me the "But the Director say it would work!" mess. The Director said there would be peace, he didn't say the world would be better off.

Destiny Plan is just a world-conquest plan, plain and simple. You can't have wars if there is only one faction in the world. So as long as everyone exists under a single ruling system, it doesn't matter what system it is; there would be peace as long as people who disagree are "weeded out and removed".
(My oh my, that sounded like the A-Laws, doesn't it?)

I wonder how many people who like Destiny Plan actually know much about what it feels like to live in a truly Tyrannical society? It is sad that they would equate "making difficult choices in life" in a democracy with "having the State making choices for you" in a Despotic government.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You know what? I am done with the argument. Everything I want to say has been said. It appears there are those who think it is a great idea to rule through violence and "remove" people who disagree with them, and that somehow that would make everyone happy. I guess I will never understand such people.

Really? Who are these people? I'd like to meet them, because I haven't seen anyone argue that something like that is good in real life here.

And don't give me the "But the Director say it would work!" mess. The Director said there would be peace, he didn't say the world would be better off.

Actually, he pretty much did.

Destiny Plan is just a world-conquest plan, plain and simple. You can't have wars if there is only one faction in the world. So as long as everyone exists under a single ruling system, it doesn't matter what system it is; there would be peace as long as people who disagree are "weeded out and removed".
(My oh my, that sounded like the A-Laws, doesn't it?)

Quite a fundamental misreading of the Destiny Plan, actually. The Destiny Plan is a domestic management system. How it's brought about is separate and distinct from the plan itself.

I wonder how many people who like Destiny Plan actually know much about what it feels like to live in a truly Tyrannical society? It is sad that they would equate "making difficult choices in life" in a democracy with "having the State making choices for you" in a Despotic government.

And I wonder if you have. More importantly, I wonder who and what you're imagining up this time, and just how relevant country of birth is to what the best possible result for a dystopian children's cartoon is.

But hey, you and I both know that trying to have the final word is best. "I am done with the argument. Everything I want to say has been said..." followed by a series of strawmen, misatributations, and insinuations? Yes, way to be done with the argument.

[Kirbyeggs]

GSD made lots of money so how did it fail >.>

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

The Destiny Plan is a domestic management system. How it's brought about is separate and distinct from the plan itself.

... I am back, I guess.
And that's where I found it impossible to reconcile with your idea.

What is the purpose of Destiny Plan? To bring about world Peace.

How could Destiny Plan be implemented? By global control and manipulation of the entire population.

And here's the crunch; once global control of the population is complete, the Destiny Plan becomes pointless. A "domestic management system" does not stop wars, because wars are not domestic affairs. As soon as a war start, Destiny Plan stops. There would be no war for Destiny Plan to prevent, because all opposition has to be eradicated to begin with.

If Destiny Plan doesn't work unless everyone cooperate, then it can't foster cooperation. If an on-going war prevents Destiny Plan, then Destiny Plan can't stop wars.

In short, how the Destiny Plan is brought about is NOT separate or distinct from the plan itself, because the Plan itself can't be maintained without keeping the draconian enforcement that starts it.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

I disagree that it can be ignorred in the context of the discussion since it screamed 'post-series explanations', but I understand your verdict. I'll stop referring to it.

It's more than just my verdict per se. It's also that the Astray manga is a subordinate work to Destiny. Hence if there are any contradictions between the two, it would speak poorly of Astray, not the parent work. As such any discussion regarding the Destiny version of the Destiny Plan should be done solely with facts from the show itself, and not the manga.

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

But rather then having a giant laser loom on your at every second, Which would obviously call for resistance, the Destiny plan eliminates the uncertainty factor and totally seals the chance that anything else could occur. Holding people down with Force only warrants more force. But if Dullendal pressures them into the Destiny plan, then Everybody would have no choice but to stop fighting. Why? Because the Destiny plan works.

Well, no. That wouldn't be because the Destiny Plan works; it'd be because everyone is coerced into cooperating. But what history teaches us is that such coercion cannot last, and the Destiny Peace will disintegrate over time. It might take a few years, or a few decades, but it's doomed to failure because of the way human beings are wired.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

So you're basically saying the whole world should have been forced into the Destiny Plan or die? That makes Durandal no different from any other villian who had a plan that would generally benefit the world except from the fact that they were forcing it on the world with no choice and killing anyone who disagreed. Like Schinziel from Code Geass (who also had the director say his plan would work perfectly, just that a minority of people would suffer because of it) or Light from DN.

That's supposed to be the point of Durandal's character. He's supposed to be an idealist who wishes that the world be more perfect (a laudable goal, mind you), but is willing to go to extremes of ruthlessness to deliver that vision. As long as he had people who believed in his vision, he was capable of deceiving himself that it'd work out despite all of the destruction he wrought. That's why, at the very end when Rey shot him, he realized the limits of what he could do, and gave up.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

... I am back, I guess.
And that's where I found it impossible to reconcile with your idea.

What is the purpose of Destiny Plan? To bring about world Peace.

How could Destiny Plan be implemented? By global control and manipulation of the entire population.

And here's the crunch; once global control of the population is complete, the Destiny Plan becomes pointless. A "domestic management system" does not stop wars, because wars are not domestic affairs. As soon as a war start, Destiny Plan stops. There would be no war for Destiny Plan to prevent, because all opposition has to be eradicated to begin with.

If Destiny Plan doesn't work unless everyone cooperate, then it can't foster cooperation. If an on-going war prevents Destiny Plan, then Destiny Plan can't stop wars.

In short, how the Destiny Plan is brought about is NOT separate or distinct from the plan itself, because the Plan itself can't be maintained without keeping the draconian enforcement that starts it.

Those are good points; and I'd to particularly emphasize that last bit. People who wonder whether the ends justify the means are missing the point: the means are an end unto themselves, and so all of the consequences of the action have to be counted into the equation.

[Neku]

Ah haa.

I always come at a right timing - the end.
Agreeing with 4Tran, those are really good points, Vallen Chaos Valiant. You've actually made this all worth reading (although I skipped the most part where there were constant repetition; I've had my amount of personal experience, too).

To keep myself on-topic, GSD didn't fail, really, if there are still people around to discuss about how it failed and whether Destiny Plan was a masterpiece or not.

As of now, it's been a few years, and even I am already in university... turning into a student who doesn't watch as many anime as I used to. But I do remember, that the Destiny Plan from SEED Destiny will never work.. mainly because it never did in the anime.

The ending....

Durandal, the saint is dead. Kira and Lacus succeeded in their hidden tyranny. Shinn has been brainwashed by Kira. Rey will not be there anymore to snap him out of it because Kira accidentally, evilly, indirectly rendered him to kill Durandal and suicide. Athrun continues to being a puppet by Kira, making him new Tori(s) and Lacus new Haro(s) every day.

That's what happened, right?

[blitz1/2]

wait, so we're now discussing about why Destiny Plan will/will not fail now? How is this related to "what caused GSD to fail?"

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It's more than just my verdict per se. It's also that the Astray manga is a subordinate work to Destiny. Hence if there are any contradictions between the two, it would speak poorly of Astray, not the parent work. As such any discussion regarding the Destiny version of the Destiny Plan should be done solely with facts from the show itself, and not the manga.

Except that ignores a fundamental aspect of side and subordinate material: to flesh out and explain things that aren't fully addressed in the series. While subordinate material points should be ignored if they directly contradict the parent work (unless the material is a ret con, in which case it takes presidence), the points that are not in contradiction should also be acknowledged. That's how we know such things as the origins of the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice, or the junk guild and how Lowe saved Kira (which itself explains how Kira survived his last big fight with Athrun in Seed). Does in-series facts trump contradictory subordinate facts? Yes, unless subordinate material is supposed to set the record straight. But that does not mean inconvenient side material can be ignored.

Well, no. That wouldn't be because the Destiny Plan works; it'd be because everyone is coerced into cooperating. But what history teaches us is that such coercion cannot last, and the Destiny Peace will disintegrate over time. It might take a few years, or a few decades, but it's doomed to failure because of the way human beings are wired.

Except, by fictional fiat, that won't happen with the Destiny Plan. Reality, history, sociology, and political record is irrelevant when a fictional series says 'this works.'

Edit: I don't think anyone here actually thinks the Destiny Plan could ever really work in anything resembling reality. But it's part of a fictional setting, and so it has to be treated as if it does, just like anyone who reads Dune has to accept a inter-galactic caste/aristocracy based on a unique drug that can't be synthesized, or anyone into Starwars has to accept the Force, and fantasy readers often have to accept noble monarchs and monarchies who, despite being replete with Enlightenment concepts, never have to face the consequences that the Enlightenment brought about (the end of Monarchies).

Double edit: Or the Star Trek transporters being treated as shiny elevators rather than effective tools for immortality, cloning, and an end to material shortages, or Terminator's complete lack of timeline continuity, or...

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

wait, so we're now discussing about why Destiny Plan will/will not fail now? How is this related to "what caused GSD to fail?"

Well, since GSD's finale depended on a showdown between a logically impossible system and other, similar hypocritical idealists without a plan to peace, that counts as total failure for political thriller villain in my book.

[aeriolewinters]

GSD was a failure, only because the writer, and director were not consistent with whether Kira and co. did the right thing. At one time, they say that Kira and co. have been corrupted, but months after that statement, they say otherwise. Now if they made this clear, we wouldn't have trouble defining what GSD achieved.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Except that ignores a fundamental aspect of side and subordinate material: to flesh out and explain things that aren't fully addressed in the series. While subordinate material points should be ignored if they directly contradict the parent work (unless the material is a ret con, in which case it takes presidence), the points that are not in contradiction should also be acknowledged. That's how we know such things as the origins of the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice, or the junk guild and how Lowe saved Kira (which itself explains how Kira survived his last big fight with Athrun in Seed). Does in-series facts trump contradictory subordinate facts? Yes, unless subordinate material is supposed to set the record straight. But that does not mean inconvenient side material can be ignored.

Note that my statement was talking about a contradiction between the primary and secondary works.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Except, by fictional fiat, that won't happen with the Destiny Plan. Reality, history, sociology, and political record is irrelevant when a fictional series says 'this works.'

That isn't true at all. If a work of fiction proposes something particularly egregious, then we can pin it down to bad writing. If this is present in the primary work, then we'd still have to deal with it, but if it's only present in a secondary work, then it can be safely ignored (or ridiculed, as the case may be).

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Well, since GSD's finale depended on a showdown between a logically impossible system and other, similar hypocritical idealists without a plan to peace, that counts as total failure for political thriller villain in my book.

Who are these hypocritical idealists that you speak of? Durandal was both hypocritical and idealistic, but he's sort of by himself there .

Originally Posted by midnightlumina

GSD was a failure, only because the writer, and director were not consistent with whether Kira and co. did the right thing. At one time, they say that Kira and co. have been corrupted, but months after that statement, they say otherwise. Now if they made this clear, we wouldn't have trouble defining what GSD achieved.

Hint: pay little attention to what Fukuda and company say. That should always be the standard when dealing with creative staff interviews anyways: their main points should have been in the show to begin with, and any other statements can only supplement those points. Besides, given how uncertain Fukuda's statements are to begin with, anything he says is very vulnerable to misleading translation (mostly in terms of how much to weigh any statement).

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Note that my statement was talking about a contradiction between the primary and secondary works.

And then you said to ignore the secondary works entirely, without doing any more than alluding to possible contradictions.

That isn't true at all. If a work of fiction proposes something particularly egregious, then we can pin it down to bad writing. If this is present in the primary work, then we'd still have to deal with it, but if it's only present in a secondary work, then it can be safely ignored (or ridiculed, as the case may be).

Then I guess GSD had bad writing, because offering impossible political/operational setups is a plot creation device as common as dirt, going back as far as the incest paradox of the Book of Genesis. Most works of fiction have only a passing acquantance with plausibility and common sense if you nitpick the details, but that's how it's always been. Or rather, unless you want to rule the vast majority of literature (and quite large swarths of human history: I'm looking at you, economic communism) as bad writing. And you'd also have to condemn the fundamental setting of Gundam Seed and Destiny as bad from the get go: it's all based on make believe genetics, laughable political setups (Orb? PLANTS? Heh.), and so on.

The Destiny Plan is offered out of the blue towards the end of the series as a means to ensure peace. Lacus and company don't deny it, but deny that it's worth the cost of freedom and happiness and rainbows from the blood of the world and all that. The side material merely expands on the plot device by confirming that it actually would work if enacted. Call it bad writing if you want (I don't mind: I consider GSD bad writing anyway, but not for impossible political machinations), but it is the writing you have.

Who are these hypocritical idealists that you speak of? Durandal was both hypocritical and idealistic, but he's sort of by himself there .

"Stop Fighting!" Kira and Lacus count in my book, Lacus on multiple counts. Then there's the nation of Orb (neutral Orb aiding the AF, then not even retaliating after ZAFT destroys a colony? And then throws the country into the fire in the name of ideals?), which implicates Cagelli's father, and Cagelli let herself be led to ally with the EF in Destiny. I also love how the entire cast just sort of turns a blind eye to Mu's war crimes as Neo and how they're never mentioned again by anyone.

You can make a case for other characters as well (Rau saying everyone should die but sought to extend his own life), but those are the big ones in my memory.

Hint: pay little attention to what Fukuda and company say. That should always be the standard when dealing with creative staff interviews anyways: their main points should have been in the show to begin with, and any other statements can only supplement those points. Besides, given how uncertain Fukuda's statements are to begin with, anything he says is very vulnerable to misleading translation (mostly in terms of how much to weigh any statement).

So ignore supplementary material and interviews unless they supplements pre-existing points, unless that pre-existing point was a major plot element about the possibility for a disutopian future?

But yeah, I agree that Destiny should have clearly addressed a number of things in Destiny, but that it fell well short due to bad writing. One reason why I consider it to have failed.

[4Tran]

It's also that the Astray manga is a subordinate work to Destiny. Hence if there are any contradictions between the two, it would speak poorly of Astray, not the parent work. As such any discussion regarding the Destiny version of the Destiny Plan should be done solely with facts from the show itself, and not the manga.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

And then you said to ignore the secondary works entirely, without doing any more than alluding to possible contradictions.

Really?

It's also that the Astray manga is a subordinate work to Destiny. Hence if there are any contradictions between the two, it would speak poorly of Astray, not the parent work. As such any discussion regarding the Destiny version of the Destiny Plan should be done solely with facts from the show itself, and not the manga.

I thought that I did just that. I also brought up that if the Mars stuff in Astray were important, then they would have been brought up in Destiny itself.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Then I guess GSD had bad writing, because offering impossible political/operational setups is a plot creation device as common as dirt, going back as far as the incest paradox of the Book of Genesis. Most works of fiction have only a passing acquantance with plausibility and common sense if you nitpick the details, but that's how it's always been. Or rather, unless you want to rule the vast majority of literature (and quite large swarths of human history: I'm looking at you, economic communism) as bad writing. And you'd also have to condemn the fundamental setting of Gundam Seed and Destiny as bad from the get go: it's all based on make believe genetics, laughable political setups (Orb? PLANTS? Heh.), and so on.

While Destiny's writing is hardly something to write home about, it's failing in terms of the Destiny Plan is in not explaining how it was supposed to work enough. Otherwise, it posited it as a bad idea in terms of cost/results, and that's the way it's answered in terms of theme as well. That's actually not too bad when it comes to anime.

The other side of the equation is how much an idea is implausible, and how the plausibility of the idea is treated. In the former case, the Destiny Plan is exceedingly implausible (well, outright impossible) because it ignores all lessons of history and human nature. In some cases, this wouldn't be that much of an issue (depending on the viewer's experience), but it really stands out because the show itself begs the question of whther implementing will solve anything. The rest of the points you bring up in terms of setting are nowhere nearly as egregious, and are relatively solid for that matter.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

The Destiny Plan is offered out of the blue towards the end of the series as a means to ensure peace. Lacus and company don't deny it, but deny that it's worth the cost of freedom and happiness and rainbows from the blood of the world and all that.

That's the incorrect way to view the potency of any new idea. It's not a matter of who denies it, but of who supports it and what kind of arguments they use to do so. In the defense of the Destiny Plan, we had just Durandal, and he never even bothered to give it more than a cursory description of what it would accomplish. If this were anything like the real world, this would be a sign that the plan offers precisely squat.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

The side material merely expands on the plot device by confirming that it actually would work if enacted.

By all I've heard of the side material, that doesn't sound like it's the case at all.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

"Stop Fighting!" Kira and Lacus count in my book, Lacus on multiple counts. Then there's the nation of Orb (neutral Orb aiding the AF, then not even retaliating after ZAFT destroys a colony? And then throws the country into the fire in the name of ideals?), which implicates Cagelli's father, and Cagelli let herself be led to ally with the EF in Destiny. I also love how the entire cast just sort of turns a blind eye to Mu's war crimes as Neo and how they're never mentioned again by anyone.

What is "Stop fighting! supposed to count as? It can be an eminently rational request if the alternative is the escalation of a conflict, but Lacus never said it in Destiny at all. Kira did say it, but only on a personal level, not as advice or as a demand for nations; and certainly not as an instrument of policy. In Destiny, Orb wasn't fighting for ideals at all - they were fighting for fairly specific and limited goals.

As for Mwu's war crimes, what do you posit them as being?

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

You can make a case for other characters as well (Rau saying everyone should die but sought to extend his own life), but those are the big ones in my memory.

I don't recall Rau doing much in Destiny.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

So ignore supplementary material and interviews unless they supplements pre-existing points, unless that pre-existing point was a major plot element about the possibility for a disutopian future?

Incorrect. Supplemental material should be ignored unless it is consistent with the primary material. If the supplemental material is really poor, I don't really see the point of taking it into account either unless the creator insists that it's canonical.

[Aquaman OS]

The whole Kira and Lacus appear scream stop fighting and shoot everyone is a massive flanderization which is a result of people getting their portrayals in Seed and Destiny confused, watching CB in action in 00, and exagerating character traits in general. Games such as DWG2 and SRWZ seem have accepted these traits as fact when they really aren't.

In actuality in Destiny their goals in battle were as follows

13: Protect themselves from the Ash team.

23 and 28: Stop the Orb forces from waging war against while preventing them from getting wiped out. They placed priority on Zaft lives over Orb, but its not like Zaft wouldn't do the same thing in reverse. Kira only shot at people that were attacking him Cagalli or AA first he wasn't trying to pick a fight with everyone. Despite what haters say they were not in fact trying to stop the battle in general. In fact Kira and AA try to prevent Minerva from getting wiped out as well (though destroying their main gun to prevent Orb from getting totally destroyed because as I said Orb lives have priority) until Shinn starts shooting at them and basically ruins any chance of alliance (he also ruined any chance of Orb standing down as he pissed everyone off by shooting at Cagalli)

32: Save Berlin. Since they got there first halted Destroy's advance and conviently took out Neo and Sting for Shinn, he should have been a bit more grateful. Yeah Stellar died but she was a lost cause to begin with.

34: Defending themselves. Arugably had Zaft not attacked them here and damaged AA and destroying Freedom they could have taken back Orb earlier and prevented Djbril from getting there at all.

39: Saving Eternal from Zaft.

40-43: They were preventing a Zaft takeover of Orb while at the same trying to capture Djbril. They repeatedly asked for a ceasefire (which Zaft ignored as they wanted to take over Orb anyway) Had Zaft stopped their attack and let Cagalli's people try to deal with Djibril they might have stopped him but insisting on pressing the attack allowed him to get away.

Final Battle: They are attacking Requiem to destroy it and prevent it from destroying Orb or forcing it into accepting the DP.

At all points except when defending themselves they are fighting for Orb. They weren't trying to "Stop Fighting"

[Kirbyeggs]

^^ i agree

Kira is not trying to be like celestial being. But the War was caused for a stupid reason anyways just because of some aristocrats who wants moar money

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Really? I thought that I did just that.

You didn't. I asked for what the contradictions are, and you merely just said if there are contradictions, it speaks badly of the supplementary work. That isn't a contradiction between the works, it's a policy for judgement if contradictions do arise.

I also brought up that if the Mars stuff in Astray were important, then they would have been brought up in Destiny itself.

Just like if the story and main character was important, they wouldn't have let them crash so badly?

I'm not the writing cast, who were clearly struggling and weren't able to write the series as they intended. I'm not the Director, who's openly said that the series didn't go the way he wanted it to go. I'm not Bandai and those behind the franchise, who put out the Ashtray side stories. But I can think of a number of reasons why they would put something like that in a sidestory, ranging from that it didn't matter in that it wouldn't change the effect of the story (having disaffected witnesses say the Destiny Plan works really doesn't change Lacus's point and selfjustification for fighting) to they felt that the show badly presented it/audience misinterpreted what was presented and they felt that a sidestory manga was an acceptable place to put in their view.

It's fine to say that if it's important, it should have been included in a good writing. But Destiny isn't good writing, and whether the Destiny Plan is in anyway a workable technology/system isn't anymore important to the story than mecha or coordinators. Less so, actually, because what was important was that the Lacus faction wouldn't like the freedom tradeoff and Shinn (the protagonist) would lose everything but Luna. That the Destiny Plan is already successfully in place on Mars isn't important to the Destiny storyline (where Mars never even gets mentioned). But that doesn't mean that Mars and what the Destiny Plan is can be entirely ignored when the topic of discussion is the Destiny Plan.

While Destiny's writing is hardly something to write home about, it's failing in terms of the Destiny Plan is in not explaining how it was supposed to work enough. Otherwise, it posited it as a bad idea in terms of cost/results, and that's the way it's answered in terms of theme as well. That's actually not too bad when it comes to anime.

Since Destiny was undeniably mixed up in terms of theme once it started tossing aside the original protagonists and changing the roles of the Seed1 peeps, creating a supplementary material to give a more intended role makes sense on the part of the people who are behind the universe of Seed. The side material didn't challenge the theme of Seed (that the Destiny Plan would demand sacrifices), but mainly confirmed that the Destiny Plan itself would work. That it is also not a horrific distopia is only of interest in this discussion, not the anime series as a whole, where the rallying cry was "lack of freedom!!1!" and not "oppressive police state dictatorship oppression11!1!"

The other side of the equation is how much an idea is implausible, and how the plausibility of the idea is treated. In the former case, the Destiny Plan is exceedingly implausible (well, outright impossible) because it ignores all lessons of history and human nature. In some cases, this wouldn't be that much of an issue (depending on the viewer's experience), but it really stands out because the show itself begs the question of whther implementing will solve anything. The rest of the points you bring up in terms of setting are nowhere nearly as egregious, and are relatively solid for that matter.

With all do respect, yes they are. Seed-verse plot settings laugh in the face of rationality. The entire basis of conflict is based on the idea that marginal genetic modification would produce computer-speed thinking superment, and the huge basis for the importance of the Gundam is that they can ignore the laws relating mass, velocity, inertia, and impacts with a never-addressed, entirely unsupported technology called "phase shift." Then we are told a country of about 30 million rejected the laws of physics to disable nuclear fission and proceeded run rampant over an industrialized, technologically near-par planet over billions. And then, a year later, reversed its own reversal of physics to reallow nuclear power, which apparently now can provide unlimited power and thrust to a small machine while also still working as a backup nuclear bomb.

On another side, a tiny, newly formed volcanic island in the Pacific with no natural resources or prior settlement has become a major power, with infrastructure and technology matching or surpassing all the rich, established superpowers who have had centuries of development and actually have their own affordable natural resources. And that island country is ruled by a heriditary aristocracy which encourages marriages between cousins to keep their hand on power. Despite supposedly being the most politically enlightened people on the planet.

Yeah, Seed and Destiny are full of bunk, and it starts well before the Destiny Plan even was mentioned.

That's the incorrect way to view the potency of any new idea. It's not a matter of who denies it, but of who supports it and what kind of arguments they use to do so. In the defense of the Destiny Plan, we had just Durandal, and he never even bothered to give it more than a cursory description of what it would accomplish. If this were anything like the real world, this would be a sign that the plan offers precisely squat.

And in a subpar anime, that's just par for course because it isn't anything like the real world. Lacus and co never sat down to have a serious look and disection of the Plan either, simply passing on with "but it won't be happy/perfect." Lacus never even ever offered a plan or alternative or even told the world and her opponents what she was aiming for ever. She denounces Durandal's plan and then moves to overthrow him lickty split, and ends up ruling the PLANTS. If this were anything like the real world, that would be a sign of a power hungry politician running a military coup.

By all I've heard of the side material, that doesn't sound like it's the case at all.

You mean you heard that the martians who come to the Earth and who were the ones to tell Durandal of the Destiny Plan told him that it didn't work?

What is "Stop fighting! supposed to count as? It can be an eminently rational request if the alternative is the escalation of a conflict, but Lacus never said it in Destiny at all. Kira did say it, but only on a personal level, not as advice or as a demand for nations; and certainly not as an instrument of policy. In Destiny, Orb wasn't fighting for ideals at all - they were fighting for fairly specific and limited goals.

When a first strike is your idea for stopping fighting and dying, and then continuing to attack all sides and increasing the number of casualties is your idea of solving the problem, then yes. You are a hypocrite. A well meaning, naive hypocrite, but a hypocrite. Furthermore, shouting it out when the fighting has already escalated is even less productive.

As for Mwu's war crimes, what do you posit them as being?

Inciting a war by attacking a peaceful nation without provocation, use of mentally handicapped children as soldiers, controlling subordinates through drugs, hypnosis, and other conditioning methods.

Oh, and razing Berlin and other major European cities with the intent for massive civilian casualties. Can't forget that.

I don't recall Rau doing much in Destiny.

It was, like, his biggest scene of Destiny, which was more of a flashback to his character during Seed.

Incorrect. Supplemental material should be ignored unless it is consistent with the primary material. If the supplemental material is really poor, I don't really see the point of taking it into account either unless the creator insists that it's canonical.

Wrong. Supplementary material produced by the owners of the series should be accepted unless they are contradicted by the primary material. Even if one doesn't like the supplementary material, it is still made by the creators with the intention of telling another story and filling in more information of the universe. The people who own the franchise and have the supplementary material produced have a higher claim to the series than you.