Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

however instead stepping into the Grail war mess, he should have first told Tokiomi what is happening.

I agree. He was screwed from the second he made that decision.

[mAc Chaos]

Well, it's not like Tokiomi would have listened. And he probably would have approved of it anyway to give Sakura all her powers as the heir. Every mage's path is supposed to be a difficult one.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

Well, it's not like Tokiomi would have listened. And he probably would have approved of it anyway to give Sakura all her powers as the heir. Every mage's path is supposed to be a difficult one.

actually we don't know if Tokiomi would have listen. The major reason Tokiomi sent Sakura to Matou was to protect her. The stuff he talk about regarding reaching the root and pride of a Magi was important but secondary to protecting his daughter.

Kariya never try.

[sento]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

Well, it's not like Tokiomi would have listened. And he probably would have approved of it anyway to give Sakura all her powers as the heir. Every mage's path is supposed to be a difficult one.

Nah, by giving her to the Matou family Tokiomi was specifically trying to avoid what happened to Sakura at the end. He just never understood Zouken true nature, same as he did with Kirei.

[Archer]

Originally Posted by sento

Nah, by giving her to the Matou family Tokiomi was specifically trying to avoid what happened to Sakura at the end. He just never understood Zouken true nature, same as he did with Kirei.

Tokiomi always looked at things from a perspective of a magus, rather than a perspective of a normal being. He's a man so detached from reality that it's completely expected that he would absolutely fail at understanding people. Like any magus, he would think that the pain that would occur during the process is normal, so Kariya would have no grounds to complain.

The only way that Kariya would've managed to get through to Tokiomi would be to tell him that the Matou way of magical inheritance would destroy Sakura's potential. But Kariya doesn't know and doesn't care about such things, he just abhors magi in general due to his circumstances. They have completely different mental processes.

It was never going to work at all.

[hero147]

Tokiomi reminds me of King Lear. Kariya, like all tragic heroes seems to have taken the plunge this episode, losing his moral attributes.

[sento]

Originally Posted by Archer

Tokiomi always looked at things from a perspective of a magus, rather than a perspective of a normal being. He's a man so detached from reality that it's completely expected that he would absolutely fail at understanding people. Like any magus, he would think that the pain that would occur during the process is normal, so Kariya would have no grounds to complain.

The only way that Kariya would've managed to get through to Tokiomi would be to tell him that the Matou way of magical inheritance would destroy Sakura's potential. But Kariya doesn't know and doesn't care about such things, he just abhors magi in general due to his circumstances. They have completely different mental processes.

It was never going to work at all.

The anime just went over it, but in the novel you see what he was thinking when he was with Rin, and he was thinking as a father too as the narration even pinpoints it. He considered that the greatest gift his father gave him was the possibility to choose a magus life or a normal life, but he regretted how he wasn't able to give that to his daughters due their potentials. What he didn't wanted was to see his daughter as a guinea pig, and that was what Zouken did at the end.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

actually we don't know if Tokiomi would have listen. The major reason Tokiomi sent Sakura to Matou was to protect her. The stuff he talk about regarding reaching the root and pride of a Magi was important but secondary to protecting his daughter.

Kariya never try.

You know, I am starting to think that Zouken have already been using his crest worms on every members of the Matou family so they will never be able to tell about the crest worms.

Seriously, those things are perfect tools to keep them in control. I mean, we never know we have tape worms inside us until we start showing the symptoms or have a doctor checking for us.

[Awrya]

Rider really has the best lines, 'Eat my dust, Saber!' 'We'll have to walk back.'
Aoi seems to have memory loss, the Matou only offered to adopt Sakura, while Tokiomi accepted their offer. Sakura wasn't 'taken' away, rather she was 'given' away. Am I the only one who sees it this way?

[Sheba]

Aoi likely sees Sakura's situation as Kariya's fault. Had he accepted his magus heritage and not run away, the Matou would not have turned to the Tohsaka.

[HandofFate]

lol Kariya's role sucks. He seems to have the least impact in anything he tried to attempt the whole battle. Don't get why Sabre just turns and leave...how about questioning Rider where Ilyavestil is...

Aoi is pretty dumb. I think she wanted to be choked to death. I thought Kariya told her he was gonna kill Tokiomi in the first season already anyway..

lol @ Archer's line "That was a terrible play"

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

actually we don't know if Tokiomi would have listen. The major reason Tokiomi sent Sakura to Matou was to protect her. The stuff he talk about regarding reaching the root and pride of a Magi was important but secondary to protecting his daughter.

Kariya never try.

Tokiomi wouldn't have cared about the rape, IMO. It might have made him uncomfortable, but a magus' path is justified in his eyes. Tokiomi told Kariya:

Spoiler for length:

"The only thing to do in order to preserve both sisters' talents is to give one away for adoption. Old man Matō's request was a godsend. As a house that knows of the Holy Grail's existence, the possibility of reaching 'Akasha' is even higher. Even if I can't complete it, there's still Rin, and if Rin fails there's still Sakura; someone will always inherit the Tōsaka family's wish."

"You bastard..."

How can he speak of such a despairing truth with a still expression?

If they both walk the road leading to 'Akasha', then －

"...You want them to fight each other? Sister against sister?!"

Faced with Kariya's accusation, Tokiomi gave an unbidden laugh and nodded with a cold expression.

"Even if such a situation is to result, it is still happiness to the remnants of my house. If we succeed, the glory will be in our own hands; even if we fail, the glory will belong to our ancestral name. There is no such thing as a confrontation without sorrow."

"You're insane!"

He's so deep into that proper magus BS path he would have been fine if Rin or Sakura fought to death... for the Root. He would have definitely cared that Zouken wasn't training Sakura, only experimenting on her which was what he wanted to avoid. Although Kariya had no idea of this...

Anyway, the point is moot. Kariya didn't even know what was Sakura's state until after he volunteered to Zouken. Admist a pit of carnivorous worms with a taste for flesh, he wouldn't change his mind, now would he? After the worms are placed inside of him, he's basically Zouken's puppet.

Originally Posted by Awrya

Aoi seems to have memory loss, the Matou only offered to adopt Sakura, while Tokiomi accepted their offer. Sakura wasn't 'taken' away, rather she was 'given' away. Am I the only one who sees it this way?

Aoi is warm, nurturing and motherly. But she's also passive-aggressive, spineless who blamed Kariya for running away from his household without even understanding the real situation. Even if her husband decided this and she didn't raise objections. She half guilt trip him and dismissed him as none of his business in the beginning (clearer in the novels).

Kariya isn't a perfect angel (he's reckless and later maddened by the agony), but he totally put that woman into a pedestal and blamed Tokiomi because he couldn't take it out with Zouken (due to worms). When truly, it's her responsibility too. Although let's not be too harsh with Aoi, she was under emotional distress too. Funny how things are, Tokiomi "blames" Aoi (she's too bountiful), Aoi blames Kariya (he ran away!), Kariya blames Tokiomi (he gave his daughter away) for the Sakura situation.

Originally Posted by HandofFate

Don't get why Sabre just turns and leave...how about questioning Rider where Ilyavestil is...

She realized she wasn't in the chariot. Also, novel wise, she realized that it couldn't have been Rider a little too late. Rider was heading towards their castle to issue a challenge. It didn't make sense to return to their territory if they were running away. Which makes her realize that he didn't know where they lived now...

Also she understood his nature and how the underhandedness was so unlike his style (true, maybe he was forced by a command spell, but look at Waver).

[Kirito]

What a tragic episode, well near the end to say the least. So Kariya hatred for Tokiomi not only consisted of contempt but jealousy and envy as well regarding Aoi, the wife of the Tohsaka family. I understand that the Sakura thing truly is horrible, but in the end it's clear that the Tohsaka family truly loved her and deep down it was really hurting both said husband, wife, and mostly the daughter, Rin.

I can't really feel sorry for Kariya to be honest because I find him to be a pathetic wishy washy whiny bitch. Poor Rin, now both her daddy and mommy are gone. She needs a hug.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Deikan

I can't really feel sorry for Kariya to be honest because I find him to be a pathetic wishy washy whiny bitch. Poor Rin, now both her daddy and mommy are gone. She needs a hug.

If wasn't for Kariya, Rin would be processed prana for Caster. Mommy and daddy just suck to properly take care of their own children. At least she has a competent legal guardian now who can raise her properly... Kirei needs father of the year award.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Damn what an emotional blow this episode delivered with Kariya.

Everyhting else though...Bike+Saber=win.

[FlareKnight]

Well unfortunately you could see how this was going to turn out especially when Tokiomi was sitting there dead. It really was a crappy play put on by Kirei.

This whole mess is just frustrating. At least Tokiomi and Aoi aren't going to have anymore kids that they can screw up. Can run around in circles about how much everyone involved is to blame when thinking about this. How much would Tokiomi if he simply knew Sakura would go through hell? He was alright with sisters fighting to the death in a future war so....yeah. Either way if he couldn't figure out that Zouken was pure evil then he really was an idiot. The guy couldn't look more evil if he tried.

Aoi was really kind of stupid here for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately walked right into this and now has left Rin without parents and under the custody of Kirei...oh god.

Just feel bad for Kariya, no matter what he does it all goes to hell. In the end all he can do now is try to last long enough to save Sakura, it's all he's got now.

A nice small showdown with Rider and Saber. Of course I'm not sure how smart a plan it was to just charge in there. Was his plan seriously to get there right before she could unleash that attack and win? Well either way he lost a chariot so all he has is his trump card.

Guess Saber realized for a variety of reasons that it wasn't really Rider who took Irisviel. Probably hasn't figured out who truly is behind this since it even too Kiritsugu a wrong guess before he could figure things out. Now he can't escape going after Kirei.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

He was alright with sisters fighting to the death in a future war so....yeah.

if the 4th war was inconclusive again, the 5th war would take place 60yrs form the 4th. When before sisters would be in their 60s. The whole sisters fighting each other to death was just something Tokiomi said to rile up Kariya.

[rpgman1]

It really does feel like a crummy play that Kirei set up for the 4th Holy Grail War. Love Saber, motorcycle + Invisible Air on it. Kariya seems to suffer from the worst misfortune ever and he even killed Aoi for not believing him. Now we're down to 4 masters and 4 servants. Rider's chariot is no match for Saber's Excalibur anyway.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by rpgman1

It really does feel like a crummy play that Kirei set up for the 4th Holy Grail War. Love Saber, motorcycle + Invisible Air on it. Kariya seems to suffer from the worst misfortune ever and he even killed Aoi for not believing him. Now we're down to 4 masters and 4 servants. Rider's chariot is no match for Saber's Excalibur anyway.

worst then Lancer and his master?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by rpgman1

Rider's chariot is no match for Saber's Excalibur anyway.

Well, it wasn't supposed to be a power match between Ghordius Wheel and Excalibur. It was supposed to be a "race".