[Manga] Naruto Chapter 615 Discussion Thread

[Shining Celebi]

Orochimaru has been a complete joke throughout Part 2.

I wouldn't hope for much.

I really like his character as a villain in Part 1, especially in the beginning - remember how he paralyzed Kakashi with fear?

Ever since he's been a total loser...the Naruto battle was just a monster battle, Sasuke killed him in bed without a fight, then Sharingan'd him, then Itachi one-shotted him and now he's Sasuke's pet.

I think Kishimoto has been trying to "undo" this with the recent revelations about Orochimaru's super genius knowing everyone's secret and something about some power that can control the world...

...but dude, he got murdered by a teenager while he was lying in bed crying about being sick.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

If Chouji [...]

Chouji has displayed considerably more power in his last intervention than everything Sakura ever did put together -and then multiplied by ten- in the last 615 chapters. Truthfully the very fact that the author devoted more time to Chouji than to Sakura in this war says it all about Sakura's importance plot wise.

[iBeast]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

Orochimaru has been a complete joke throughout Part 2.

I wouldn't hope for much.

I really like his character as a villain in Part 1, especially in the beginning - remember how he paralyzed Kakashi with fear?

Ever since he's been a total loser...the Naruto battle was just a monster battle, Sasuke killed him in bed without a fight, then Sharingan'd him, then Itachi one-shotted him and now he's Sasuke's pet.

I think Kishimoto has been trying to "undo" this with the recent revelations about Orochimaru's super genius knowing everyone's secret and something about some power that can control the world...

...but dude, he got murdered by a teenager while he was lying in bed crying about being sick.

Oro has been a clown ever since it was revealed Itachi handled him in less than 10 seconds...

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Chouji has displayed considerably more power in his last intervention than everything Sakura ever did put together -and then multiplied by ten- in the last 615 chapters. Truthfully the very fact that the author devoted more time to Chouji than to Sakura in this war says it all about Sakura's importance plot wise.

Power is meaningless against characters of little to no importance. For example, Naruto taking down a slew of 'named' big bad zombies is, on paper, impressive, but none of the zombies had any real relevance (and many of them did little of consequence since they only killed no name fodder), so besides some name recognition and impressive displays of power the battles were pointless.

That being said, I do agree that Chouji (and even Tenten and Temari) has been painted as being more important than Sakura in this war, that is why I expressed the belief that Sakura is being saved for Sasuke's reemergence. She's on the battlefield, Sasuke will get their eventually, now Kishimoto just has to connect the dots and add the figures and hopefully not get the wrong conclusion...

[iBeast]

Originally Posted by james0246

Power is meaningless against characters of little to no importance. For example, Naruto taking down a slew of 'named' big bad zombies is, on paper, impressive, but none of the zombies had any real relevance (and many of them did little of consequence since they only killed no name fodder), so besides some name recognition and impressive displays of power the battles were pointless.

That being said, I do agree that Chouji (and even Tenten and Temari) has been painted as being more important than Sakura in this war, that is why I expressed the belief that Sakura is being saved for Sasuke's reemergence. She's on the battlefield, Sasuke will get their eventually, now Kishimoto just has to connect the dots and add the figures and hopefully not get the wrong conclusion...

Are you expecting Sakura to try and poison Sasuke again?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by iBeast

Are you expecting Sakura to try and poison Sasuke again?

I'm not expecting anything, but I am hoping Kishimoto will have Sakura live up to the basic potential he has already shown her to have...then again, considering how easily Kishimoto threw under the bus during the last encounter with Sasuke, my hopes are probably unjustified.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

Power is meaningless against characters of little to no importance. For example, Naruto taking down a slew of 'named' big bad zombies is, on paper, impressive, but none of the zombies had any real relevance (and many of them did little of consequence since they only killed no name fodder), so besides some name recognition and impressive displays of power the battles were pointless.

Sasori had no relevance either in the grand scheme of things but her participation in his demise was the best thing that ever happened to her character. The reason characters like Gaara or Shikamaru stay more relevant is precisely because they can take on some of those meaningless enemies and be impressive about it.
Because she has done nothing and worse wasn't shown doing anything Sakura taking on Orochimaru at this point would be even more stupid than Chouji and Tenten. She is become a nobody both power and plot-wise.

I think I already tried to explain this without much success to Dengar but a character who doesn't fight in a shounen fighting story is simply irrelevant. What this fight entail isn't important, the author could have made a couple of chapters with Sakura fighting against a Zetsu-spore based disease killing thousands within the Alliance and her struggle to save them all in time and it would work too. On screen display of fighting spirit is what keep a character relevant if not important. Without that you're just part of the scenery.

That being said, I do agree that Chouji (and even Tenten and Temari) has been painted as being more important than Sakura in this war, that is why I expressed the belief that Sakura is being saved for Sasuke's reemergence. She's on the battlefield, Sasuke will get their eventually, now Kishimoto just has to connect the dots and add the figures and hopefully not get the wrong conclusion...

I get what you're saying, I really do but I think you're willfully ignoring a few dots because they don't paint a picture you like to look at. Mainly the fact that Sakura flatly admitted to herself that she wouldn't intervene in the Sasuke/Naruto situation anymore because she couldn't say or do anything of importance about it. The only thing that remained for her was to believe in them (sic).

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Sasori had no relevance either in the grand scheme of things but her participation in his demise was the best thing that ever happened to her character. The reason characters like Gaara or Shikamaru stay more relevant is precisely because they can take on some of those meaningless enemies and be impressive about it.

Sasori helped capture a bijuu. That instantly makes him important (instantly more important than anything any of the zombies have done). Of the Konoha characters, her one battle easily outranks all other characters save for Shikimaru no matter their amount of battles.

Originally Posted by Hunter

I think I already tried to explain this without much success to Dengar but a character who doesn't fight in a shounen fighting story is simply irrelevant.

That is a fair point, and I do not disagree with the generality of the statement. Sakura is in a unique situation though, because she was an actual main character that has been foisted off to the background. I do expect Kishimoto to simply cast her aside (I'm more than willing to acknowledge that Kishimoto doesn't care anymore), but in a short time all of Team 7 will be on the battlefield, and that could be (and I hope it is) the moment Sakura becomes relevant again.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Sasori had no relevance either in the grand scheme of things but her participation in his demise was the best thing that ever happened to her character. The reason characters like Gaara or Shikamaru stay more relevant is precisely because they can take on some of those meaningless enemies and be impressive about it.
Because she has done nothing and worse wasn't shown doing anything Sakura taking on Orochimaru at this point would be even more stupid than Chouji and Tenten. She is become a nobody both power and plot-wise.

I think I already tried to explain this without much success to Dengar but a character who doesn't fight in a shounen fighting story is simply irrelevant. What this fight entail isn't important, the author could have made a couple of chapters with Sakura fighting against a Zetsu-spore based disease killing thousands within the Alliance and her struggle to save them all in time and it would work too. On screen display of fighting spirit is what keep a character relevant if not important. Without that you're just part of the scenery.


I get what you're saying, I really do but I think you're willfully ignoring a few dots because they don't paint a picture you like to look at. Mainly the fact that Sakura flatly admitted to herself that she wouldn't intervene in the Sasuke/Naruto situation anymore because she couldn't say or do anything of importance about it. The only thing that remained for her was to believe in them (sic).

Uhhh, I just don't feel any frustration at the fact that Sakura isn't fighting. Really, to me there just isn't any problem here.

[winteragain]

So anyone think the Hokages..minus Tsunade, are going to come back rejuvenated for round 2? If they do, how will they play a part in the fight?

How will the dynamic of Madara and Obito shift as Obito starts to lose against alliance and jeopardizing the moons eye objective ?

I mean the Obito's vision will be false since the moon eye objective is incomplete anyway. People would not all be in the fantasy illusion world. This situation would have people that are not in the moons eye illusion and be awake in the painful ninja world...If that was the goal then it was really about being a dictator and not the noble goal of erasing all ninja humanities pain.

How do you think an uncontrolled juubi will act? Just for giggles, lets have Juubi go uncontrolled into chaos mode has revelation that the world is not worth saving ..sticks out both middle fingers (utilizing all elements combined to make monumental structure for all to see) to both Alliance and Madara + Obito. Then goes and blows up the entire world. "This plan in my honest opinion is the best see ya all." quote by 10 tails. 10 Tails then goes and hits the "that was easy button" at his new home on another planet where ninjas don't exist.

Just kidding.

[gibits]

Hunter: I'm going to have to disagree with you. Hinata barely fights at all and yet she has been quite impactful in this shonen series. Sakura's uselessness isn't due to lack of fighting, it is due to lack of progression. She started part 2 strong with the killing of Sasori but then just withered on the vine. The few times she does do something it is to hinder Naruto and the Leaf 11 in some way.
At this point, most fans would just prefer she sit back and just save people (at least I would).

As for Chouji beating Oro? Why not? Kishi himself admitted that Chouji and Killer B were his favorites. Kishi's favorites usually go on to dominate the plot, just lOok at what happened with Sasuke.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by winteragain

So anyone think the Hokages..minus Tsunade, are going to come back rejuvenated for round 2? If they do, how will they play a part in the fight?

At this point i think the best they can do is to help Naruto in whatever he tries to do, either by buying him time or to protect a worn out Naruto from Madara after Obito already died and the 10-tails broke down.

Originally Posted by winteragain

How will the dynamic of Madara and Obito shift as Obito starts to lose against alliance and jeopardizing the moons eye objective ?

At this point if Obito doesn't betray Madara i don't see how could the alliance survive this. So i think Naruto will in the end turn Obito against Madara. As for Madara, i think he doesn't even want to go with Obito's plan now, he would rather want to capture the remaining 2 demons and create a perfect 10-tails. Of course there is a chance that if Obito is cornered by Shikaku's strategy then he will rather sacrifice himself to revive Madara just to prove that he is right to Naruto. But i think that won't happen because the author wants to give Kakashi a happy end here, and thus Obito will join the good guys just before he dies, and we will see an emotional scene with Kakashi and Obito as Obito dies (then maybe a scene where Obito meets Rin on the other side).

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

At this point if Obito doesn't betray Madara i don't see how could the alliance survive this.

....Doing pretty well so far.

Besides, Naruto winning due to the mercy of the villain? How lame would that be?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Dengar

....Doing pretty well so far.

Besides, Naruto winning due to the mercy of the villain? How lame would that be?

Let's ask Nagato sometime...

[gibits]

My predictions for the war: Obito sees the error of his ways and tries to turn on Madara. Madara uses genjutsu to force him to sacrifice himself and fully revive Madara. Creates AU/matrix, and we spend some chapters in there until Naruto inspires others to break out of the dream. Everyone wakes up, Naruto and B kill non zombie Madara juubi. The end.

I don't really get why Madara can't be a Jinchuriki as a zombie though. I mean, didn't B and Naruto just fight a bunch of zombie Jinchurikis? Kishi really dropping the ball on consistency.

[Eragon]

Or the kid with Zabuza

[gibits]

Originally Posted by james0246

Let's ask Nagato sometime...

Naruto kicked Pain's ass. No mercy was given to Naruto. Give credit where it is due.

[winteragain]

@ Dengar..it would be lame if it was mercy but for love..I mean wasn't obito just a misguided soul that saw only the aftermath of the death of Rin while knowing nothing of the circumstances .. If Obito knew the awesome Kishi backstory and turns betrayal mode on Madara it would be understandable I think.

@Ero-Senn1n..What if Shikaku knows that Obito must sacrafice himself so the alliance strategy was to kill Obito before he can fully revive Madara the right way. The alliance does a fake attack on Juubi but actually meant for Obito having all the alliance direct their forces on him..and Kakashi being the one to take him out too. Kakashi in his and Obito's last words by genitsu shows the backstory of why he killed Rin. Giving closure and making the ultimate year of Kakashi ending of two best friends that rekindled their differences. Then as a leaving message by Obito a secret of how to defeat the 10 tails or Madara.

[Dengar]

^I don't really think Obito actually cared much for the circumstances.

Originally Posted by james0246

Let's ask Nagato sometime...

What would you ask the guy who got completely obliterated by Naruto (and only Naruto)?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by gibits

Naruto kicked Pain's ass. No mercy was given to Naruto. Give credit where it is due.

Never said anything about the puppets. Nagato gave up. Whether it can be seen as an act of mercy or not is debatable, but he still gave up (and for stupid reasons).