[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Marion]

Something to note: What if solving the epitaph isn't enough to stop the murders.

Think back to EP 3: Eva solved it and only Rosa knew. But the murders still occurred. Why? Because Eva and Rosa didn't tell anybody else about it. Then Rosa dies and Eva still keeps her mouth shut. It's not enough to just solve the epitaph, you need to state it loud and clear that you did. In this episode Battler and Erika did just that, leading all the adults down to the gold room itself, and because of that the murders didn't go according to the epitaph at all: only 5 people died first twilight, no second twilight occurred and Hideyoshi and Krauss were basically random deaths in a way.

[Renall]

Isn't it far more likely that solving it doesn't stop the killings because the killings have nothing whatsoever to do with the epitaph?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Renall

Isn't it far more likely that solving it doesn't stop the killings because the killings have nothing whatsoever to do with the epitaph?

But the killer is obviously trying to make it look like it does relate to the epitaph. So when the epitaph was solved they stopped making it look like it.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Marion

But the killer is obviously trying to make it look like it does relate to the epitaph. So when the epitaph was solved they stopped making it look like it.

Ep4 isn't really like the epitaph either. Honestly, half the bodies that were supposed to be staked weren't. It seems like an afterthought. Which means it's either a different killer or the killer had something happen to them to make them stop pretending to be Beatrice.

Oh, idea.

I remember a plot device from one of the Poirot books: It involved a serial killer, and several deaths, one after the other, blah blah, usual plot.

Turns out the guy they thought was the serial killer actually hadn't killed anybody, and that all but one of the deaths were absolutely meaningless; they were just random people that were killed to make it look like the work of some crazed lunatic, so that no one would pay much attention to the one victim that mattered. This way, no one would suspect the real killer, and he would get off, scot-free.

I wonder if something similar is going on here.

There's only one death that's of any importance, and everyone else is just to throw us off the scent.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Marion

But the killer is obviously trying to make it look like it does relate to the epitaph. So when the epitaph was solved they stopped making it look like it.

No, someone is trying to make it look like it does relate. If that person dies, or doesn't know about the death (Rosa/Maria in ep3, possibly), or has some other reason not to do anything, they might not try to make it relate. They might just run around staking corpses and not actually killing anyone.

And the killer or killers not following the epitaph have a better reason to stop in ep5: Someone has halfway solved the crime and accused someone of it. This is an excellent time to stop killing and hope the accusation sticks, as you then get away with it. Plus, the epitaph was solved before the murders this time, and they still happened.

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

There's only one death that's of any importance, and everyone else is just to throw us off the scent.

If this is true, it's probably someone from the first or second twilights.

Spoiler for Let's Look at this, niipa~!:

Let's look and who is the most common to be one of the first eight killed off:

EP1: Rudolf, Kyrie, Gohda, Rosa, Shannon, Krauss, Eva, Hideyoshi
EP2: Natsuhi, Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva, Hideyoshi, Jessica, Kanon
EP3: Kanon, Shannon, Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda, Kinzo(?), Rosa, Maria
EP4: Rudolf, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Eva, Rosa, Genji, George, Jessica
EP5: (only seven) George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Krauss, Hideyoshi

Okay, so here are the people killed off at least three times: Rudolf, Rosa, Krauss, Eva, Hideyoshi, Genji, and Jessica. With the exceptions of EP3 and EP4, there's always five of these people.

L:JFHFHSIFHAIFH WHOA.

Okay, first of all: All the siblings are on this list. That's definitely informative, and they're obvious targets, as the first four heirs and Kinzo's children.

The next three: Hideyoshi, Genji and Jessica.

Jessica is the next heir after the siblings. I doubt she's involved with the murders, but she's another obvious target.

Genji is VERY loyal to Kinzo and "Beatrice." This might be more important than we think.

As for Hideyoshi? We know too little about the guy, But he's probably much smarter than he looks. I'm sure of that.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Renall

And the killer or killers not following the epitaph have a better reason to stop in ep5: Someone has halfway solved the crime and accused someone of it. This is an excellent time to stop killing and hope the accusation sticks, as you then get away with it. Plus, the epitaph was solved before the murders this time, and they still happened.

If you combine this with my above theory, then the one person intended to be killed must be someone who died in the first twilight.

Originally Posted by Volcanic

If this is true, it's probably someone from the first or second twilights.

Spoiler for Let's Look at this, niipa~!:

Let's look and who is the most common to be one of the first eight killed off:

EP1: Rudolf, Kyrie, Gohda, Rosa, Shannon, Krauss, Eva, Hideyoshi
EP2: Natsuhi, Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva, Hideyoshi, Jessica, Kanon
EP3: Kanon, Shannon, Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda, Kinzo(?), Rosa, Maria
EP4: Rudolf, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Eva, Rosa, Genji, George, Jessica
EP5: (only seven) George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Krauss, Hideyoshi

Okay, so here are the people killed off at least three times: Rudolf, Rosa, Krauss, Eva, Hideyoshi, Genji, and Jessica. With the exception of EP3, there's always five of these people.

L:JFHFHSIFHAIFH WHOA.

Okay, first of all: All the siblings are on this list. That's definitely informative, and they're obvious targets, as the first four heirs and Kinzo's children.

The next three: Hideyoshi, Genji and Jessica.

Jessica is the next heir after the siblings. I doubt she's involved with the murders, but she's another obvious target.

Genji is VERY loyal to Kinzo and "Beatrice." This might be more important than we think.

As for Hideyoshi? We know too little about the guy, But he's probably much smarter than he looks. I'm sure of that.

This is VERY useful. Thank you.

Hmm. Hideyoshi and Rosa both die four times. Furthermore, Rosa dies in the first twilight in Ep5.

I doubt it's Hideyoshi, he hasn't been developed enough to be important at this point.

So... who on the island would have a grudge against Rosa? ...Beatrice?

>_>

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

This is VERY useful. Thank you.

Hmm. Hideyoshi and Rosa both die four times. Furthermore, Rosa dies in the first twilight in Ep5.

I doubt it's Hideyoshi, he hasn't been developed enough to be important at this point.

So... who on the island would have a grudge against Rosa? ...Beatrice?

>_>

You're welcome, Kaisos-san.

Anyway, when you compile the evidence, Hideyoshi is just too underdeveloped to be completely unimportant. Think Tommy, Takano and Irie, who were much more important than they came off. (At least in my opinion) It's mentioned his family was killed in some war, but it's never stated how he met Eva or how rich his family is\was or anything.

Rosa...? Hmm. Quick theory: the Beato Rosa met as a child is not the daughter of Beatrice (Kinzo's lover) she just looks kinda like her (ie Jessica- which explains why she was killed so much, in a sense) and is the daughter of some other woman. Woman's family wants revenge. They somehow found out that Rosa saw their Beato die, and the shit hits the fan from there.

...Kinda crackish, but whatever.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Volcanic

If this is true, it's probably someone from the first or second twilights.

Spoiler for Let's Look at this, niipa~!:

Let's look and who is the most common to be one of the first eight killed off:

EP1: Rudolf, Kyrie, Gohda, Rosa, Shannon, Krauss, Eva, Hideyoshi
EP2: Natsuhi, Krauss, Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva, Hideyoshi, Jessica, Kanon
EP3: Kanon, Shannon, Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda, Kinzo(?), Rosa, Maria
EP4: Rudolf, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Eva, Rosa, Genji, George, Jessica
EP5: (only seven) George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Krauss, Hideyoshi

Okay, so here are the people killed off at least three times: Rudolf, Rosa, Krauss, Eva, Hideyoshi, Genji, and Jessica. With the exception of EP3, there's always five of these people.

L:JFHFHSIFHAIFH WHOA.

Okay, first of all: All the siblings are on this list. That's definitely informative, and they're obvious targets, as the first four heirs and Kinzo's children.

The next three: Hideyoshi, Genji and Jessica.

Jessica is the next heir after the siblings. I doubt she's involved with the murders, but she's another obvious target.

Genji is VERY loyal to Kinzo and "Beatrice." This might be more important than we think.

As for Hideyoshi? We know too little about the guy, But he's probably much smarter than he looks. I'm sure of that.

So Nanjo and Battler never die early, that's important too...

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Ssol

So Nanjo and Battler never die early, that's important too...

Not only are Nanjo and Battler never in First Twilight, they're never in Second Twilight either. Nanjo is definitely 1. suspicious or 2. a red herring.

...

Nanjo scares me now.

[Tyabann]

Nanjo has to be around to identify the bodies for the first twilight, and there's no one he's close to on the island other than Kinzo, who's dead, so he can't qualify for the second.

I seem to remember a red declaration that Nanjo isn't a murderer, either...

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Nanjo has to be around to identify the bodies for the first twilight, and there's no one he's close to on the island other than Kinzo, who's dead, so he can't qualify for the second.

I seem to remember a red declaration that Nanjo isn't a murderer, either...

Not a murderer, but is he the one orchestrating the mass murders?

He's Kinzo's closest friend (or was it Genji?) and we have very little background info about him from episode 4.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Volcanic

You're welcome, Kaisos-san.

Anyway, when you compile the evidence, Hideyoshi is just too underdeveloped to be completely unimportant. Think Tommy, Takano and Irie, who were much more important than they came off. (At least in my opinion) It's mentioned his family was killed in some war, but it's never stated how he met Eva or how rich his family is\was or anything.

It's stated in EP 1 that Hideyoshi didn't come from a lavish background like Eva at all and built his corporation from the ground up without help.

[Volcanic]

I'd like to think Nanjo is an accomplice myself xDD

And yeah, Genji is supposed to be Kinzo's closest friend. It would be nice to learn more about this supposed "connection" he has with Ronove. Maybe we'll have one of those EP4-esque scenes where he and Ronove just have some casual chat lol. "How's it been?" "Fine." "So...how's the weather?" "It's raining." "I knew that."

It's stated in EP 1 that Hideyoshi didn't come from a lavish background like Eva at all and built his corporation from the ground up without help.

Which makes the whole "How did Eva and Hideyoshi meet anyway" thing even more vague

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Volcanic

And yeah, Genji is supposed to be Kinzo's closest friend. It would be nice to learn more about this supposed "connection" he has with Ronove.

He's supposed to be Ronove's vessel, like Kuwasuma is for Virgilia and those rabbit toys are for the Siestias.

A bit off-topic, but I can't wait for the anime-viewers' reaction to Kuwasuma turning into Virgilia. That's going to be epic.

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

A bit off-topic, but I can't wait for the anime-viewers' reaction to Kuwasuma turning into Virgilia. That's going to be epic.

Well, I felt the reaction to zombie!Kanon was kinda light myself. xDD My anime-only friend totally freaked out, though. xD

Back on topic...my dreams of an epic Genji and Ronove conversation have been shattered! Still, it would be interesting to get more character development for the servants, now that I think about it. Gohda's notebook is all we have for the the gang besides Kanon and Shannon.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Volcanic

Well, I felt the reaction to zombie!Kanon was kinda light myself. xDD My anime-only friend totally freaked out, though. xD

Back on topic...my dreams of an epic Genji and Ronove conversation have been shattered! Still, it would be interesting to get more character development for the servants, now that I think about it. Gohda's notebook is all we have for the the gang besides Kanon and Shannon.

Well, Genji and Ronove... as well as Kumasawa and Virgilia all appeared at the end of EP3 together. So maybe it's not impossible for them to converse with their vessel?

So far though, that doesn't seem to be the case outside of the EP3 banquet.

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

Well, Genji and Ronove... as well as Kumasawa and Virgilia all appeared at the end of EP3 together. So maybe it's not impossible for them to converse with their vessel?

So far though, that doesn't seem to be the case outside of the EP3 banquet.

Ah, that's true. Still, my overwhelming desire to have a non-canon side story with the servants and Ronove, Gaap and Virgilla having a tea party\hanging out would just be awesome if it happened. xDD

While we're on the topic of the servants, I can't help but think there's more to them than just servants, in a Anti-Fantasy way of course. ...I was going to elaborate more, but I lost my train of thought lol.

[Rhysfel]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Nanjo has to be around to identify the bodies for the first twilight, and there's no one he's close to on the island other than Kinzo, who's dead, so he can't qualify for the second.

I seem to remember a red declaration that Nanjo isn't a murderer, either...

Well, we could say that Nanjo's role is similar to Dr. Armstrong's role in Agatha Christie's ''And then there Were None''.(Which is very similar to Umineko)

Spoiler for That Novel:

He's been used without knowing by the culprit and then betrayed and killed off for the sake of the nursery rhyme, in Umineko's case, of the epitaph.

Or maybe his just an accomplice after all...

[Raneh]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

A bit off-topic, but I can't wait for the anime-viewers' reaction to Kuwasuma turning into Virgilia. That's going to be epic.

I bet their reactions to most of that chapter are going to be hilarious to read.

Spoiler for EP3 stuff:

Beato's attitude, bunny girls, ghost, many/maniac witch(es)..

well, pretty much everything :P
Now that I think back, the whole series feels like a presentation of some nutcase's daydreams...

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Nanjo has to be around to identify the bodies for the first twilight, and there's no one he's close to on the island other than Kinzo, who's dead, so he can't qualify for the second.

I seem to remember a red declaration that Nanjo isn't a murderer, either...

One red truth declares that he's not a murderer in episode 1, I don't think it applies to other games. On the other hand he does spends his time in Kinzo's study or somewhere else (away from the others) so he probably has access to all kinds of things Kinzo was storing, he could help in the murders.
Genji has pretty good access to those rooms as well. He can always go in and out as he wishes and it really feels like he's involved in all this. He does die early a couple of times though, maybe someone wanted his key to the study

Spoiler for First twilights:

Each time in the first twilight a servant dies (with the exception of ep2) but do they ever actually check if their master keys have dissappeared? The first twilight usually happens in a place where special key (chapel key, storage key) is needed or no key at all (dining room, guest house's room?). After that it's easy to go anywhere with a master key. In episode 2 no servant was killed before the second twilight but Jessica's key was suspicious enough.
In ep5 Genji could've been killed just to get to guest house because everything's supposed to be locked up at night, right?
Arr, It would also help if I remembered where his room is supposed to be, main house or guest house. So many other things I would have to check again but I guess I'm just too lazy for that.

...As I wrote the last paragraph I came across so many dead ends that I'm not sure if it's even meaningful anymore