Hayate no Gotoku manga (raw discussion only)

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Except that, by your own statement, there's a way for her to recover her original age and power, and implied continue aging, which would be trying to indicate that there's a way around the curse, if that's what it actually does, and not erase after a certain age.

Good point. She, perhaps, might not able to break the curse so far. I was just trying to come a with a possible scenario here although it may be somewhat shallow.

[mitsuganae]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Did she... Named the dog [Armageddon] ?

I know of a great white shark named Snookums.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by mitsuganae

I know of a great white shark named Snookums.

And this is Fumi we're talking about.
(Notice that a large dog is one of the things the page image depicts XD)

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by mitsuganae

I know of a great white shark named Snookums.

I know of a giant shark named [Epicus Maximus]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

And this is Fumi we're talking about.
(Notice that a large dog is one of the things the page image depicts XD)

Well she certainly doesn't disappoint

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Well she certainly doesn't disappoint

The only thing that makes that frightening.. I think she's implied to be the next student council president.

Athena, Maria, Hinagiku, Fumi

Which one of these doesn't fit?

[GDB]

Hina, obviously! She's of normal height compared to those around her.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by GDB

Hina, obviously! She's of normal height compared to those around her.

While she was probably president, Athena was equal height to Hina.

It's only in her 6-y-o/Alice form that she's significantly smaller.

[GDB]

I figured that, like Maria, Athena flew through school at a ridiculous pace. She was already a chairman by the time Hina came along, wasn't she? We know Hina's been the president for at least a year+, and Maria was the president when she was 13-graduation (assume 1-3 years max), and she's 17 now. That doesn't give Athena much room to be the president if not when she was ridiculously young.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by GDB

I figured that, like Maria, Athena flew through school at a ridiculous pace. She was already a chairman by the time Hina came along, wasn't she? We know Hina's been the president for at least a year+, and Maria was the president when she was 13-graduation (assume 1-3 years max), and she's 17 now. That doesn't give Athena much room to be the president if not when she was ridiculously young.

We were only given hints that Athena even was president I think, but I think she was still a student, and thus president, earlier in the year, but when she graduated early, Hinagiku took over for her mid-year, which would imply that Hina has been president for less than a fully year at this point.
Alternately, Hinagiku could have taken over during her freshman year and Athena had just given up the position for her senior year, since it wasn't going to be a full year anyway.

I think Athena's head chairman by inheritance and hasn't actually taken over the post yet. Though she is apparently able to make decisions at that level already.

[zodanhko]

I don't think there is anything mentioned on Athena being the student council president. I believe that Athena already held the title Board Chairman when she was 6 or 7 years old after she re-obtained the inheritance, but the actual administration was done by Kiraka, the acting board chairman, since Athena was too young. She'll take over Kiraka soon though. So, I doubt that Athena became the student council president at all.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

I don't think there is anything mentioned on Athena being the student council president. I believe that Athena already held the title Board Chairman when she was 6 or 7 years old after she re-obtained the inheritance, but the actual administration was done by Kiraka, the acting board chairman, since Athena was too young. She'll take over Kiraka soon though. So, I doubt that Athena became the student council president at all.

Athena was the one who decided Hayate could be admitted, and she's supposedly 16, which many would see as still to young to make such a decision.

Re-obtaining the inheritance of the Tennos was probably more troublesome than simply asking for it (Mikado was implied to be holding it, and he's not the giving type), I wouldn't think she'd actually had accomplished it until at least 10, rather than right after escaping the RG.

Being the board chairman she's implied to have had 'waiting' for her though, so even while she was a student, she held the post in name only.
It's the governance implications that make me think she held the student council president role somewhere along the line, an in-between role of not old enough to be board chairman, but still having that waiting for her.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Athena was the one who decided Hayate could be admitted, and she's supposedly 16, which many would see as still to young to make such a decision.

Re-obtaining the inheritance of the Tennos was probably more troublesome than simply asking for it (Mikado was implied to be holding it, and he's not the giving type), I wouldn't think she'd actually had accomplished it until at least 10, rather than right after escaping the RG.

Being the board chairman she's implied to have had 'waiting' for her though, so even while she was a student, she held the post in name only.
It's the governance implications that make me think she held the student council president role somewhere along the line, an in-between role of not old enough to be board chairman, but still having that waiting for her.

According to Hinagiku, Athena (16) will start doing the administration soon so the 'young' had to be referred to an (much?) earlier age. Athena was able to admit Hayate demonstrated that she had the power to make the decision even before she begins doing the administration.

If it took 4 years to regain the inheritance, where did she get the money to survive during all those time with her 6 year old body? So, that's very unlikely.
Trying to regain the inheritance would be difficult, especially without help, but it's a matter of knowledge and intelligence, and it definitely won't take long if you know your stuff and have the necessary evidences to support your claims.

I think the "waiting" period you mentioned reflects Athena's until recent status, which she could not officially doing the administration because of her young age. However, she was still referred to as the Board Chairman even a year ago although Kiraka was still in charge even now. I don't think there was no need for a waiting for her to get the Board Chairman title since Athena owns the school.

Although Athena easily qualified for the SCP spot, I don't think she became one because I believe she wouldn't wanted it, and with her status as the Board Chairman (or the owner of the school).

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

If it took 4 years to regain the inheritance, where did she get the money to survive during all those time with her 6 year old body? So, that's very unlikely.
Trying to regain the inheritance would be difficult, especially without help, but it's a matter of knowledge and intelligence, and it definitely won't take long if you know your stuff and have the necessary evidences to support your claims.

Nagi had access to the inheritance, but not the title, and she seemed to do fine without actually having it. Mikado provided for her a place to live and servants to handle the 'hard work' of having the title, and there's no reason not to believe that he wouldn't have done the same for Athena, since they'd worked together in the past. He's even doing it now while Nagi is clearly being antagonistic towards him, and it's implied (rather heavy-handedly) that he and Nagi never really saw eye-to-eye before.
It's not unlikely that he's played a part in Wataru's business functioning as well as it's doing, since it wouldn't do to have his heir be betrothed to a commoner.

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Although Athena easily qualified for the SCP spot, I don't think she became one because I believe she wouldn't wanted it, and with her status as the Board Chairman (or the owner of the school).

Why wouldn't she have wanted the position?
She wanted the Power of the Gods, so being power-hungry is a possible motive, and, not being able to directly be the Board Chairman, the SCP would be the next closest position of power.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Nagi had access to the inheritance, but not the title, and she seemed to do fine without actually having it. Mikado provided for her a place to live and servants to handle the 'hard work' of having the title, and there's no reason not to believe that he wouldn't have done the same for Athena, since they'd worked together in the past. He's even doing it now while Nagi is clearly being antagonistic towards him, and it's implied (rather heavy-handedly) that he and Nagi never really saw eye-to-eye before.
It's not unlikely that he's played a part in Wataru's business functioning as well as it's doing, since it wouldn't do to have his heir be betrothed to a commoner.

Athena didn't want Mikado's help. She wanted to regain the inheritance with her own hands for her late parents and as a punishment for leaving her home. And, I don't think Athena and Mikado are even in that good of a relationship for her to ask for help from him.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Why wouldn't she have wanted the position?
She wanted the Power of the Gods, so being power-hungry is a possible motive, and, not being able to directly be the Board Chairman, the SCP would be the next closest position of power.

If it's power, there's no need to be the SCP, who deals with students and school activities only, if she already owns the school. There's really no power in being a SCP except having loads of work to be done.

I believe she wouldn't wanted it because her status was already far beyond the SCP position. Moreover, she's not really a socialize person to be working with the others. And, it's hard to imagine Athena doing something like planning activities for school events and solving problems for the students, which are tasks for the students, with her mental level.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Athena didn't want Mikado's help. She wanted to regain the inheritance with her own hands for her late parents and as a punishment for leaving her home. And, I don't think Athena and Mikado are even in that good of a relationship for her to ask for help from him.

Nagi doesn't/didn't want Mikado's help either, he still provided it to her and she grudgingly accepts it.
Mikado does things for his own reasons at his own time, he doesn't need to be asked to help out, he does so so that he can manipulate things.

Originally Posted by zodanhko

If it's power, there's no need to be the SCP, who deals with students and school activities only, if she already owns the school. There's really no power in being a SCP except having loads of work to be done.

I believe she wouldn't wanted it because her status was already far beyond the SCP position. Moreover, she's not really a socialize person to be working with the others. And, it's hard to imagine Athena doing something like planning activities for school events and solving problems for the students, which are tasks for the students, with her mental level.

Athena didn't have the power to do anything that affected how the school was run outside of such a position because of her age and society, so she might have taken the job because it was the best position of power she could have held at the time.
The SCP has a group of officers supporting them, but I don't believe we've ever seen anyone in the position working alongside anyone else, in this story or in many others, at best they're usually heads of the council, which is exactly the position she'd be in as head chairman.

Wasn't it the Sanzenin name on the placard for the building site that Hayate saw when he was trying to get back to the RG. I believe that the school was part of the inheritance that she was attempting to reclaim from the Sanzenin fortune.

Both Maria and Hinagiku are Athena's equals in intelligence and we know that both of them have been student council presidents.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Nagi doesn't/didn't want Mikado's help either, he still provided it to her and she grudgingly accepts it.
Mikado does things for his own reasons at his own time, he doesn't need to be asked to help out, he does so so that he can manipulate things..

Mikado did offered help to Athena, but she immediately refused it, and there's no indication otherwise. I don't think it's accurate to compare Athena to Nagi because their mentalily is extremely different.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Athena didn't have the power to do anything that affected how the school was run outside of such a position because of her age and society, so she might have taken the job because it was the best position of power she could have held at the time..

It seems Athena can make decisions even before she officially starts doing the administrations as the Board Chairman, like when she admitted Hayate into the school. so, she does have the power as the owner of the school.

Positions: Students<Student Council members (only overseer student's activities) <teacher <vice-principle <principle < superintendent (usually a member of board of directors) < board chairman (usually the owner of the school).

No matter what, even as a student, Athena's position was still there.

I find it somewhat funny for her (or anyone) to seek the student council president position in order to gain "power." I think it's too a childish play especially for someone who is the owner of the school and tried to gain the Power of God before.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

The SCP has a group of officers supporting them, but I don't believe we've ever seen anyone in the position working alongside anyone else, in this story or in many others, at best they're usually heads of the council, which is exactly the position she'd be in as head chairman

The officers were guarding the school ground, not for supporting the student council members.

Student council members consist of four members. Aika, Hinagiku, Miki, Chiharu, and they have to socialize with the other students quite frequently, unlike being a Board Chairman.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Both Maria and Hinagiku are Athena's equals in intelligence and we know that both of them have been student council presidents.

Intelligence and mentality are different. Both Maria and Hinagiku had the mentality of typical students so they had no problem becoming the SCP, whereas Athena, who owned the school and sought for the Power of God, does not really seem to be the type of person interested in the SCP position, especially when she already held the Board Chairman title. (FYI: Athena>=Maria>Hinagiku in intellect)

Like I said before, there is not a single piece of information indicating Athena being the student council president, but only on her being the Board Chairman.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Mikado did offered help to Athena, but she immediately refused it, and there's no indication otherwise. I don't think it's accurate to compare Athena to Nagi because their mentalily is extremely different.

Nagi has also refused Mikado's help, he even cries to Maria when she does early on in the story.
In what way is Nagi's mentality different from Athena's?
They have both laid claim to Hayate, and he to them. They have both attacked Hayate, potentially lethally if not for his Made of Iron(t) form.
The only real difference in their mentality is what era they think from, after all, Nagi and Athena both have the same base character.

Originally Posted by zodanhko

It seems Athena can make decisions even before she officially starts doing the administrations as the Board Chairman, like when she admitted Hayate into the school. so, she does have the power as the owner of the school.

She had likely already graduated when she made that decision, thus would be (possibly grudgingly) seen as an adult then. I don't believe we were given any indication that she was allowed to make the final say in any similar decision before she had graduated.

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Positions: Students<Student Council members (only overseer student's activities) <teacher <vice-principle <principle < superintendent (usually a member of board of directors) < board chairman (usually the owner of the school).

Each class has it's own representatives as well, which Risa and Izumi occupy (although I can't figure out if Risa's job is only class, or part of the council?), which would fit between students and student council.

Originally Posted by zodanhko

I find it somewhat funny for her (or anyone) to seek the student council president position in order to gain "power." I think it's too a childish play especially for someone who is the owner of the school and tried to gain the Power of God before.

If it was the highest seat she could conceivably claim at the time, she would have gone for the power of it.

Originally Posted by zodanhko

No matter what, even as a student, Athena's position was still there.

Intelligence and mentality are different. Both Maria and Hinagiku had the mentality of typical students so they had no problem becoming the SCP, whereas Athena, who owned the school and sought for the Power of God, does not really seem to be the type of person interested in the SCP position, especially when she already held the Board Chairman title.

Athena's position would only have been there if it wasn't part of the inheritance, which we're given no indication of when she actually reclaimed.
Additionally, having the mentality of a student is a rather different animal than the mentality of a businessperson. That's something they're supposed to teach us students in high school and college-level courses.

Originally Posted by zodanhko

The officers were guarding the school ground, not for supporting the student council members.

The 'officers' I was talking about are the members of the student council, not the security officers guarding the school grounds.

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Student council members consist of four members. Aika, Hinagiku, Miki, Chiharu, and they have to socialize with the other students quite frequently, unlike being a Board Chairman.

I don't believe I've often seen Student Council Members interacting with other students unless it's by choice, and then it's as students, and they are still students themselves, so they have to do normal student things like go to class, study, probably participate in school clubs, etc.
A board chairman would probably interact with the other board members at least in a similar fashion to the President's interaction with the rest of the school board.

Originally Posted by zodanhko

FYI: Athena>=Maria>Hinagiku in intellect

You wanna provide proof of that? Hayate seems to believe they are about equals (placing Hinagiku above Maria, I wanna say that Maria thinks of Hina-tan as her own intellectual superior as well), and Athena and Hinagiku were compared in all aspects by the trio when they talked about the two during the Athens arc.

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Like I said before, there is not a single piece of information indicating Athena being the student council president, but only on her being the Board Chairman.

There is only implication that Athena held the SCP office, but if she hadn't, we're left with a gap between when Maria graduated (at 13) and when Hinagiku took over (at 15) that Athena would fill in perfectly, including having the storyline imply that she was a student in the intervening years, without having to add in another character.

[zodanhko]

All of the speculations isn't getting anywhere. Each man his own.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

The only real difference in their mentality is what era they think from, after all, Nagi and Athena both have the same base character.

Let's use their 'usual' demeanor for comparison. Their mental processes, maturity, and behaviors are extremely different, and their actions are hardly alike beside hitting Hayate. That's why I, as a reader, liked Athena more than Nagi as a character because of those great differences.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

You wanna provide proof of that? Hayate seems to believe they are about equals (placing Hinagiku above Maria, I wanna say that Maria thinks of Hina-tan as her own intellectual superior as well), and Athena and Hinagiku were compared in all aspects by the trio when they talked about the two during the Athens arc.

There was a chapter where Hayate placed Maria (much) above Hinagiku. Also, there was a chapter (232) where Miki, an information gathering specialist who has been at the Hakuou since pre-school, said that "she's (Athena) most likely the greatest genius of all students who had gone to Hakuou." This, of course, meant that Miki believes that Athena is above both Maria and Hinagiku.


For my point of view, let's see.

Hinagiku: At 6 year old- was in pre-school with other kids. Crying and keeping questioned herself where her parents were after they left, but still going to school as any other typical kids. Entered her freshmen year at 15 without any grade skipped.

Maria: Entered her freshmen year at 10 and graduated at 13. Never lost in a game. A perfectionist in everything, except lacks street smart due to limited experience.

Athena: At 6 year old- worked with Mikado (an extraordinary old man with an extremely manipulative, mischievous side) to obtain the PoG after her parent died. Regained her inheritance at such young age while easily deal with adults and assassinations by herself. Mastered swordsmanship. Taught someone to become a butler, which included cleaning, cooking, manners, etc. Currently,work as a Board Chairman at 16 years old. (I don't know even know what kind of genius Athena is).


My perception is synonymous to Hayate and Miki's.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Athena: At 6 year old- worked with Mikado (an extraordinary old man with an extremely manipulative, mischievous side) to obtain the PoG after her parent died. Regained her inheritance at such young age while easily deal with adults and assassinations by herself. Mastered swordsmanship. Taught someone to become a butler, which included cleaning, cooking, manners, etc. Currently,work as a Board Chairman at 16 years old. (I don't know even know what kind of genius Athena is).

Shall I point out that we've never been given an age for Athena, and I wanna say several times it's been implied that she's far older than she appears to be, and every time her birth year has shown up, alongside others' birthdays including year, hers has been blacked out.

Being a six-year-old doing such things would be proof of a genius-level intelligence, but, given the fact that currently she is reinhabiting the body of a 6-y-o (and currently not even having the memories, but still having the intelligence of, what we believe is, a 16-y-o) gives the clue that she wasn't ever as young as anyone thinks.

We also don't have knowledge of how old Maria is, since she was supposedly found as a baby, but has shown to have knowledge that a true 17-y-o Maria shouldn't have.

The only one we can safely say is actually the age we've been given is Hinagiku, who has shown to be perfectly above-normal in intelligence and highly regarded as a genius.

To be perfectly honest, comparing their intelligence is similar to comparing your grandmother, your mother and your sister. Of course they're going to have different levels, they've lived different amounts of time to gain different levels of knowledge.

Hayate rates Hinagiku above Maria when he needs to go after Nagi during the train trip, not wanting to leave Maria alone, but being comfortable with leaving Maria (and later Maria and Nagi) in Hinagiku's care.
Intelligence \=\ Wisdom but is often included under the heading of such, and Hayate clearly doubts Maria's wisdom, which we're given good reason to believe. Doubts of Athena's wisdom is brought up as well, while Hinagiku's is possibly not as smart as the other two, she has the wisdom to use what smarts she has to the best of her abilities, something the other two seem to be lacking in.
As an aside, Nagi is also said to be more intelligent than Hinagiku, but lacking in wisdom to the point where she isn't even on the same scale as the other three.

Also, using the school system as a means to judge a character's intelligence, I direct your attention to Baka no Test. Several of the main characters clearly have great intelligence, yet they are in the lowest class because of rules set by the school for testing.

[zodanhko]

Spoiler for ...:

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Shall I point out that we've never been given an age for Athena, and I wanna say several times it's been implied that she's far older than she appears to be, and every time her birth year has shown up, alongside other's birthdays including year, hers has been blacked out.

Being a six-year-old doing such things would be proof of a genius-level intelligence, but, given the fact that currently she is reinhabiting the body of a 6-y-o (and currently not even having the memories, but still having the intelligence of, what we believe is, a 16-y-o) gives the clue that she wasn't ever as young as anyone thinks.

We also don't have knowledge of how old Maria is, since she was supposedly found as a baby, but has shown knowledge that a true 17-y-o Maria shouldn't have.

The only one we can safely say is actually the age we've been given is Hinagiku, who has shown to be perfectly above-normal in intelligence and highly regarded as a genius.

Please realize this: The implications you are given Athena and Maria for being older than their appearance are only your speculations without any proof. There is nothing that said that their true age is not equivalent to their youth; thus, I can state things as the information are given.

---Memories lost is not equivalent to the lost of intellect because her intelligence is always with her. Genius is something are you born with; you can't gain it through studies or experience.

From what I have seen and understood, I can safely say that Athena and Maria's level of genius is superior to Hinagiku. And, I don't think Hinagiku was ever being referred to as a genius in this manga, only intelligence or smart.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

To be perfectly honest, comparing their intelligence is similar to comparing your grandmother, your mother and your sister. Of course they're going to have different levels, they've lived different amounts of time to gain different levels of knowledge.

Athena and Maria could both mature much faster than Hinagiku due to their superior intellect, including the intrapersonal and interpersonal intelligence, and personality. (It's rather void to state your speculations of 'their live time' as a fact.)

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Hayate rates Hinagiku above Maria when he needs to go after Nagi during the train trip, not wanting to leave Maria alone, but being comfortable with leaving Maria (and later Maria and Nagi) in Hinagiku's care.
Intelligence \=\ Wisdom but is often included under the heading of such, and Hayate clearly doubts Maria's wisdom, which we're given good reason to believe. Doubts of Athena's wisdom is brought up as well, while Hinagiku's is possibly not as smart as the other two, she has the wisdom to use what smarts she has to the best of her abilities, something the other two seem to be lacking in.
As an aside, Nagi is also said to be more intelligent than Hinagiku, but lacking in wisdom to the point where she isn't even on the same scale as the other three.

Hinagiku is more knowledgeable than Maria and Nagi regarding the train ticket, the train tunnels, more about trains departing time, etc. which are the things most people typically would know, would not indicate much of her "wisdom;" but, it's more like the typical knowledge she should know. Maria and Nagi didn't know because they haven't been on a train; it has nothing to do with their level of intelligence.

Knowing those simple things, trains, are much inferior than when Athena expressed her 'wisdom' by she was working with Mikado, dealt with adults, regain the Tennousu title.etc.

I don't see Nagi being inferior to Hinagiku at all, except in the physical department. Hinagiku may know more about trains but Nagi definitely knows more about manga.