[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Marion]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

However, the "corpses" were discovered by the adults a little after 6:00am. That became the basis for the adults' alibis, because they were all together in the conference room up until 6:00. If you can push the actual time of death to sometime between 6:00 and 7:00 after the closed rooms were broken into, then suddenly all of the adults' alibis evaporate, and additionally the construction of the closed rooms becomes easier to explain.

But what purpose would all 7 of them have to collaborate and kill them? Kinzo doesn't really count, since he has dead for a long time and all, but what about the five servants. Why would they just go and start killing them?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Marion

But what purpose would all 7 of them have to collaborate and kill them? Kinzo doesn't really count, since he has dead for a long time and all, but what about the five servants. Why would they just go and start killing them?

Who has to collaborate? We don't know that they always stayed together when they moved from room to room. For instance, Nanjo could have hung back to "finish the autopsy" or something, and then stabbed each body after everyone else left for the next room. Not to mention Kyrie and Rosa weren't with the search party at all, so it would be even easier for one of them.

There was also evidently a point where some of the adults went up to Kinzo's study to get the guns, so they might have split up at that time.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Who has to collaborate? We don't know that they always stayed together when they moved from room to room. For instance, Nanjo could have hung back to "finish the autopsy" or something, and then stabbed each body after everyone else left for the next room. Not to mention Kyrie and Rosa weren't with the search party at all, so it would be even easier for one of them.

There was also evidently a point where some of the adults went up to Kinzo's study to get the guns, so they might have split up at that time.

This is starting to sound like my theory for episode 1 where Kanon kills Eva and Hideyoshi after removing the chain. That means the closed room murders can be consistent. I like this idea.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Who has to collaborate? We don't know that they always stayed together when they moved from room to room. For instance, Nanjo could have hung back to "finish the autopsy" or something, and then stabbed each body after everyone else left for the next room. Not to mention Kyrie and Rosa weren't with the search party at all, so it would be even easier for one of them.

There was also evidently a point where some of the adults went up to Kinzo's study to get the guns, so they might have split up at that time.

How do you get around the red truth from episode 4?

マスターキー５本は全て、５人の使用人の懐よりそれぞれ発見された！ 個別の鍵は死体の傍らの封筒の中に！ つまり、連鎖密室にかかわる全ての鍵が、連鎖密室内に閉じ込められていたわけだ！！ ドアの隙間だの窓の隙間だの通気口だのッ、そんなところを使って密室外から鍵を戻すことなど出 来ぬぞ！！
All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants! The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses! In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!! The keys cannot be returned from outside the room using the crack of the door, the crack of the window, vents or any place of the sort!!

[Judoh]

Actually didn't the parents get in the closed rooms by breaking the windows?

In that case this red prevents them from being the murderers of the servants after they're discovered right?

Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normal.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normal.

Yeah, I’ve wondering about that line. I may have to redo my theory for the first twilight of episode 3 because of it but who knows.

Originally Posted by Episode 1

<scene: They just found Kanon and are inside the boiler room>
Battler: “Natsuhi oba-san, where does that door go?!”
Natsuhi: “G, Genji! Where does that door lead to?!”
Genji: “...The, the courtyard!”

“The courtyard of the mansion had been built strictly for lighting purposes, so it wasn’t a very elegant place. Because it was surrounded on all sides, the air was calm and completely undisturbed, even though they could hear the sound of strong winds...”

“...Furthermore, there were two entrances into the mansion from the courtyard, and neither of them were locked. Because the courtyard couldn’t be entered from outside the mansion, the doors had been built without locks.”

“...He didn’t know which one they had left through! He had to give up. Battler pounded the wall with his fist swearing...”

So from the courtyard, you can enter the mansion through the door to the boiler room. However, according to that narration, the courtyard doors were built without locks.
In order for the boiler room to be part of the closed room chain of episode 3, the door that leads to the boiler room from the courtyard probably cannot be opened from the courtyard when it is closed if the door does not have lock.

Of course, I could be reading this all wrong. Maybe he’s only talking about the two doors besides the one from the boiler room only. It’s not very clear right?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Ssol

How do you get around the red truth from episode 4?

マスターキー５本は全て、５人の使用人の懐よりそれぞれ発見された！ 個別の鍵は死体の傍らの封筒の中に！ つまり、連鎖密室にかかわる全ての鍵が、連鎖密室内に閉じ込められていたわけだ！！ ドアの隙間だの窓の隙間だの通気口だのッ、そんなところを使って密室外から鍵を戻すことなど出 来ぬぞ！！
All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants! The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses! In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!! The keys cannot be returned from outside the room using the crack of the door, the crack of the window, vents or any place of the sort!!

It was established by Beatrice in EP2 that the word "corpse" can be used to refer to things that appear to be corpses, regardless of whether they actually are corpses or not. That was reinforced in EP5 by Dlanor, who said that those corpses were witnessed by a large number of people regarding "corpses" who were playing dead.

Originally Posted by Judoh

Actually didn't the parents get in the closed rooms by breaking the windows?

In that case this red prevents them from being the murderers of the servants after they're discovered right?

Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normal.

I don't think I follow. Why would that conflict with someone killing the victims after the doors were opened?

[Renall]

Yeah, the closed room can be constructed perfectly fine with all victims alive, it's even much easier to do it that way (though I don't know if I believe it). Shannon could pass her key through a window and close it up behind herself, etc.

However, let's look at Suit-Beato in ep2 for a second. We do see a scene of Beatrice talking to the adults in the chapel. Rosa's there too. Next we see of them, Rosa's alive, the rest are dead, and Suit-Beato is nowhere to be found. They were all agreeing to something, too. What were they agreeing to? Is it someone's MO to convince people to fake their deaths, then actually kill them? That would make constructing scenarios much easier, since people would be helping you out.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

I don't think I follow. Why would that conflict with someone killing the victims after the doors were opened?

For the room Shannon was in, at least, the people entered by breaking the window not by opening the door. And the windows were all normal at the time right?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Judoh

For the room Shannon was in, at least, the people entered by breaking the window not by opening the door. And the windows were all normal at the time right?

The full line is: By the way, each of the doors and windows of the six rooms are normal. There is no device that can lock it without a key, such as an autolock. She's saying that the doors and windows are typical ones, and don't have any weird contraptions attached.

[GolfFan]

At the end of the 4th game people seem hung over about the bomb theory to me. That seems a little strange to me, isn't it a bit more likely that Battler was killed by poison?

It specifically goes over how after everyone died that Battler went to the kitchen and ate some ham and wine. These weren't canned so it had no protection of poison(unlike the sub plot in about getting canned food previously). It might explain why the author decided to have a scene where Battler eats some ham.... and well it seems a lot more likely then a bomb.

I think that would fulfill the requirements that 'Beatrice' is going to kill Battler. The poison is just taking its time to affect him. 12-24 hours seems to be a reasonable amount of time that poison needs to take affect.

Am I missing something?

[Judoh]

Battler said himself that guys like to embellish things. That's why I think a disaster or a bomb would be more likely than poison. Especially since only Maria's jaw is found in 1998 (suggesting fire). Poison just seems like a copout to me .

As for that canned food though I've been thinking that's canned Kinzo. If you've read Higurashi you'll get where that joke comes from.

[Marion]

Well Battler was probably hungry and he was clearly getting drunk due to his despair (this happened in EP 2 after all).

My problem with the poison is that what kind of poison would be used that wouldn't violate the Knox. Plus poisons are normally very fast acting - majority of them can kill you from anywhere between 2 minutes to 2 hours normally. Unless this is a very slow acting poison, I can't find it likely. There aren't any hints of such poisons existing either.

However with the bomb theory you have some evidence.

-Kinzo's body being burned can be done to disguise a boiler room explosion through some bomb.
-The fact that in 1998 the entire incident is dismissed as an accident, rather than a massacre. If the mansion still existed then they could easily look at the bodies and with some DNA testing figure out a lot of information. However if all the bodies were burned up to a crisp then that wouldn't happen.
-With all the missing 10th twilight bodies being so crazily disfigured you have to wonder how that happened. In EP 4 especially with Battler being the last person alive by Oct 5th midnight, who could possibly disfigure his body like that?
-A big reason for Eva living in EP 3 seems to be the fact that she ran into the forest and found the Kuwadorian. Yet Jessica, who seems to have just went and hide behind a curtain, went missing and got disfigured. I can't imagine Eva being able to do something like that in her clearly delirious state of mind.

[GolfFan]

Well, what are the ways to kills a person while you are already dead?

I think we can ignore a lighting strike or a 'natural' disaster because that would be an act of god rather than a murder. The same can be said with an accident.

Wired Trap x ---> A trap that Battler set off by doing action X. Like tripping a wire that was connected to a gun.

Poison --> When he ate some food or drank the wine. (Actually did that wine in episode 2 have anything in it? He did die directly after that scene, because the scene he 'saw' Kinzo was definitely fake...)

Timed Trap X ---> A bomb or a man made disaster.

Suicide ---> I'm not sure if this technically should be here, but if Battler realized something that Beatrice showed him, and this caused him to commit Suicide. It can be argued both way if this is considered 'Beatrice' killing him.

I think these are the ways that he could have been murdered. I might have missed something.

Edit: I didn't get to read you post while writing this Marion, but you do have the point of Knox's rule on poisons. I know I could name a few bacterial which would kill him in a few days, but then again Knox's rule. I'm pretty sure there are some poison which take 24 hours plus to work, but I would have to think about it, but those would indeed be violating Knox's rule about uknown poisons.

[Marion]

Well, remember the last red.

Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you. And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere. You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.

Suicide is ruled because of the "I am not you". A death like lightning strike would be pretty amazing, since the last time we saw Battler he was in the mansion and its suggested that he stood there the entire time. It doesn't seem like there were any wire gun trips, since that sounds a little bit cheesy.

[Judoh]

How do you poison ham anyway? The only type of poisoning I can think of for that would be salmonella and that's not lethal at all. That and I think the whole thing with the poisoned food was just them being paranoid. I don't beleive anyone really had the chance to poison all the food in Gohda's kitchen. Also I think the wine would be safe from poison since it's bottled right? So it should be as fresh as the canned food.

@Marion: Just to make things clear. Would you beleive that small bombs in the ham would satisfy Knox's 4th more than an unmentioned poison?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Judoh

How do you poison ham anyway? The only type of poisoning I can think of for that would be salmonella and that's not lethal at all. That and I think the whole thing with the poisoned food was just them being paranoid. I don't beleive anyone really had the chance to poison all the food in Gohda's kitchen. Also I think the wine would be safe from poison since it's bottled right? So it should be as fresh as the canned food.

@Marion: Just to make things clear. Would you beleive that small bombs in the ham would satisfy Knox's 4th more than an unmentioned poison?

I...don't even know how you could put small bombs in ham without Battler noticing them

[GolfFan]

Originally Posted by Marion

However with the bomb theory you have some evidence.

-Kinzo's body being burned can be done to disguise a boiler room explosion through some bomb.
-The fact that in 1998 the entire incident is dismissed as an accident, rather than a massacre. If the mansion still existed then they could easily look at the bodies and with some DNA testing figure out a lot of information. However if all the bodies were burned up to a crisp then that wouldn't happen.
-With all the missing 10th twilight bodies being so crazily disfigured you have to wonder how that happened. In EP 4 especially with Battler being the last person alive by Oct 5th midnight, who could possibly disfigure his body like that?
-A big reason for Eva living in EP 3 seems to be the fact that she ran into the forest and found the Kuwadorian. Yet Jessica, who seems to have just went and hide behind a curtain, went missing and got disfigured. I can't imagine Eva being able to do something like that in her clearly delirious state of mind.

Before this you gave some pretty compelling evidence why it can't suicide. I would agree the a wired trap is a little cheesy

But let's explore you're evidence.

1. I think you have a point with Kinzo's corpse.

2. They were a little vague about the murders, but that could have been out of politeness sake. (It not really convincing, but it wouldn't be that strange if they just said it out of politeness sake.) Also it's 1980's they didn't have DNA testing. I think DNA was first used in court in 1989. So we can exclude the DNA reason.

3. You could be right here, I'm a little fuzzy, but can you tell me where it was said that that bodies were disfigured? I know in episode 1 it said that the only piece they found was Maria's Jaw, but besides that episode, do we have proof they disfigured the bodies?

This one would bring a long ways to proof that it was a bomb.

4. Again Jessica being disfigured, I might just be missing this part, but could you point out where they said they were disfigured besides episode one with Maria's Jaw?

Did i miss anything with my 4 postulates on how to kill a person without being there? Input would be appreciated?

What type of poison is allowed and what type of poison isn't allowed by Knox? My thought was that the poison couldn't doing anything special, like mind control, before the death. If he died in 5 minutes would that be allowed? 2 Hours? 8 hours? 24 hours? What is the time limit?

Crack theory about the poisoning:
He is already unconscious when everything happened after eating the ham and drinking the wine and it was just made up, like what happened in episode 2. So he is about to 'die' when 'Beatrice' says her statement in red.

Originally Posted by Judoh

How do you poison ham anyway? The only type of poisoning I can think of for that would be salmonella and that's not lethal at all. That and I think the whole thing with the poisoned food was just them being paranoid. I don't beleive anyone really had the chance to poison all the food in Gohda's kitchen. Also I think the wine would be safe from poison since it's bottled right? So it should be as fresh as the canned food.

@Marion: Just to make things clear. Would you beleive that small bombs in the ham would satisfy Knox's 4th more than an unmentioned poison?

I've never spent a whole lot of time poisoning people, but i don't believe it would take that long to do it the day everyone arrived. I'm not sure about the wine. It depends on the status of the wine bottles. If there are 100, yeah it impossible to poison them all. If there was only one, it is possible to poison it.

Depending on the conditions, a lot of microbial are lethal. Given his absolute shock at what just happened his body isn't in the best shape. Like you mention Salmonella or Cholera would be an okay guess in being lethal, but there are others like bacillus anthracis (spores), and maybe even Legionella could have done the job. Most of these probably fall under Knox's 4th.

I'm not sure about what type of chemical poison would take a full day to go into effect? Intense radiation? Dehydration with some strong ass diuretic and alcohol so he couldn't take care of himself and too far away from the hospital? An intense dose of a mutagen? I'm not all that familiar with chemical poisons, but I'm sure somebody else is or doing some research one could figure out a whole list.

BTW: He ate the small bombs by taking big bites. He's a man, men don't chew, also it goddamn Battler, he just stares at it and the food goes inside of him. Or the poison mind controlled him into thinking the small bomb was a ham.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by GolfFan

Depending on the conditions, a lot of microbial are lethal. Given his absolute shock at what just happened his body isn't in the best shape. Like you mention Salmonella or Cholera would be an okay guess in being lethal, but there are others like bacillus anthracis (spores), and maybe even Legionella could have done the job. Most of these probably fall under Knox's 4th.

Um...I said salmonella IS NOT lethal...

Originally Posted by Judoh

How do you poison ham anyway? The only type of poisoning I can think of for that would be salmonella and that's not lethal at all.

and neither is cholera. Both of them would upset your stomach and that would be great comedic material, but it wouldn't kill you. The problem with spores is more with Knox's 8th. There are no hints for it. whereas there are numerous hints for a boiler explosion or a gas leak.

[LyricalAura]

Poison or disease also wouldn't cause seventeen bodies to vanish, which is what happened at the end of EP3 (as reported by Ootsuki in 1998).