[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

However, if EP6 continued the events of EP5, it would still fit with the red truth about Erika only being involved on the fifth gameboard.

Red truth isn't absolute truth and can change though.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

However, if EP6 continued the events of EP5, it would still fit with the red truth about Erika only being involved on the fifth gameboard.

Which red texts were you referring to? All red texts referring to Erika seemed to be only about her inexistence and no-influence in previous Beatrice's games,

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Marion

Red truth isn't absolute truth and can change though.

If by this you mean that red truths range of effectiveness is limited to the places and times where they are pronounced yes. Unless it is stated otherwise, like for example "this applies to all the games". However it looks like red truths do not encompass future events, so in that "this applies to all the games" there's an implicit "so far".

[chounokoe]

In the end Episode 5 leaves an equally open space as Higurashi's Tsumihoroboshi-hen did.

Spoiler for Higurashi:

We believed up to a certain point that fate was beaten by avoiding all of the friends becoming murderers, but it turned out that another rule was in effect and killed them.

We know from Episode 4 that Battler is 'completely alone' at the end of the game, yet Beatrice' will kill him in exactly that moment. So I think it is safe to assume, that whatever killed Battler, should also be able to kill the remaining survivors of the 5th game.

And somehow I don't think that the 5th game is as unfair as many people like to make it sound. Of course we have the direct involvement of two high strata witches, but that does not confirm that, apart from a different perspective on events, things really were THAT different for the 5th game.

Of course it was stated that Furudo Erika had no influence unto Beato's game so far and that Up to this world she neither existed nor had she any influence. But this only proves something for Furudo Erika, yet this person never stated in red that she is and always was Furudo Erika.
I somehow noticed how pushy Erika was, when it came to Battler helping her solve the Epitaph, almost like she alone wouldn't be enough to solve it. I mean, come on, if she really was such a genius, why would she need to take Battler along? That reminded me of another instance, namely when Eva was pushed by her 'younger self' into solving the Epitaph.

If Furudo Erika, Eva-Beatrice and the schooluniform wearing Beatrice were to be considered a clear spot on the gameboard, that changes depending on how the game develops (who solves the Epitaph, who is accused, what is discovered, etc.) it wouldn't colide with any of the Red Truth's told so far.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

In the end Episode 5 leaves an equally open space as Higurashi's Tsumihoroboshi-hen did.

Spoiler for Higurashi:

We believed up to a certain point that fate was beaten by avoiding all of the friends becoming murderers, but it turned out that another rule was in effect and killed them.

We know from Episode 4 that Battler is 'completely alone' at the end of the game, yet Beatrice' will kill him in exactly that moment. So I think it is safe to assume, that whatever killed Battler, should also be able to kill the remaining survivors of the 5th game.

Ryukishi07 probably knows that we would link events from Higurashi to Umineko. So it is better not to assume that the same trick would be played again in Umineko. There could be another conspirator or not in Umineko. Stopping the EP5 game in the middle is to make you think whether it was necessary for all people to die at the end of 5th Oct (unless you were hiding in somewhere 2km away from the mansion). If whatever killed Battler in the end of EP4 was triggered by some of the 17 people we knew (17 because if the trigger was done by Kinzo then it must happen in all episodes), then in EP5 that mass-killing would not happen if the initial culprits in EP4 have stopped to start the trigger or were killed before he or she could start it.

And in fact what killed Battler may be something utterly different from what makes people missing in EP1 and 2, we do not know the status of Battler's body.

Originally Posted by chounokoe

If Furudo Erika, Eva-Beatrice and the schooluniform wearing Beatrice were to be considered a clear spot on the gameboard, that changes depending on how the game develops (who solves the Epitaph, who is accused, what is discovered, etc.) it wouldn't colide with any of the Red Truth's told so far.

I think one decisive difference between Erika and Eva-Beatrice as well as Meta Beatrice is that Erika did have a distinct physical body apart from all the 17 people we know, Furudo Erika was not a mere title or personality embodiment. She was a distinct human like you and me. In Eva-Beatrice's case, she and Eva could only be distinguished in fantasy and metaphysical world, but they were indistinguishable in real world, since they share the same body.

So I think you were thinking too much that someone we know from EP1-4 created became Erika in EP5. No. Erika was a distinct human in the beginning.

[Goldsmith]

Hey guys. Episode six will be released on the 30th of December.
http://07th-expansion.net/Main.htm

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by ijriims

And in fact what killed Battler may be something utterly different from what makes people missing in EP1 and 2, we do not know the status of Battler's body.

Of course it still remains a question how exactly Battler died in especially Episode 1 and 4, yet I think it is safe to assume that he was wether killed by boobytraps nor by accident, because the sentence clearly states that the person speaking will kill him...and as long as Beatrice is not the embodiment of some natural force (which of course can't be ruled out) we still have to assume that a person killed him, just as much as Nanjo was killed by a 'human with his feet on the ground' that was none of the survivors and in a similar manner like the letter that could be placed in front of the dining room and the knocking on the door which was executed by a living person who could not exist.

I think one decisive difference between Erika and Eva-Beatrice as well as Meta Beatrice is that Erika did have a distinct physical body apart from all the 17 people we know, Furudo Erika was not a mere title or personality embodiment. She was a distinct human like you and me. In Eva-Beatrice's case, she and Eva could only be distinguished in fantasy and metaphysical world, but they were indistinguishable in real world, since they share the same body.

So I think you were thinking too much that someone we know from EP1-4 created became Erika in EP5. No. Erika was a distinct human in the beginning.

And I think that is the thing we have to draw in question.
We were told that Eva-Beatrice started from Eva, but she was clearly a being on her own from a certain point onward, because she showed us how she killed Nanjo, yet she insisted that it was commited by 'a human with the feet on the ground and readied weapon' and NOT Eva.
While I believe that the PERSONA of Eva Beatrice clearly started from Eva, I think the person using that persona and running around Rokkenjima is clearly human and not some kind of metaphysical collection of Evas hatred against her family.
Rather I believe that Eva joined forces with someone (人物Ｘ who could be anyone including presented and unpresented characters) and was given help in solving the Epitaph...yet this person betrayed her and went of on her own, which would still be in logical connection to Eva saying that she lost controll of what she created.
People on the island are clearly conversing with Eva Beatrice, while it is known to us that she is at another spot. Of course her alibi of being in her room could be forged, but making the distance between the mansion and the guesthouse during the killings of Rudolph, Kyrie and Hideyoshi without it being noticed by Krauss and Natsuhi is rather improbable.
Yet Kyrie and Rudolph clearly met someone who they could not directly identify as Eva.
People also met with Schooluniform Beatrice, Kyrie and later the parents in the church in Episode 2 and Battler in Episode 4. And if we don't want to assume that half of each Episode is completely made up nonsense, people were clearly talking to somebody there, just like Hideyoshi talked to somebody in Episode 5 before being killed...the only difference is, the scene from the wardrobe seems more real to us, because it was presented without magic.

I am still reluctant to completely dismiss anything we have seen during magic scenes as pure fabrication, I would rather see them as a metaphorical arangement of what really happened.

And I never doubted that Erika was a real human to begin with. I am just doubting that she really is only that what she claims to be, a little girl detective who was washed ashore by chance and is only interested in solving mysteries that have not yet presented themselves.
For that she is just to involved in stiring up conflicts within the group.

[ameskitty]

I can very well imagine the beginning of EP6 continuing the end of EP5...there's just too many things not to explore with an ending like that.

On the other hand that's also one of the main reasons I don't think the beginning of EP6 will continue EP5, knowing Ryukishi . (especially if it turns out we've got something like Higurashi where everybody dies anyways)

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Goldsmith

Hey guys. Episode six will be released on the 30th of December.
http://07th-expansion.net/Main.htm

Seriously? Holy crap Ryukishi is gonna kill himself He has so many other projects I mean seriously damn.

[Marion]

As far as EP 4 goes with "whatever killed Battler in the end will kill everyone else at EP 5" isn't affirmed.

Remember EP 3? Eva didn't die or go missing, but Jessica did.

[Ithekro]

Eva was found on the other side of the island from where the "Tenth Twilight" crown usually is before they go missing/end up dead.

Also Ep4 states that what happened in Ep3 was an "accident", and never called a crime....officially. Could there be something to that, so just something Eva managed to pull of with time and money?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Eva was found on the other side of the island from where the "Tenth Twilight" crown usually is before they go missing/end up dead.

Also Ep4 states that what happened in Ep3 was an "accident", and never called a crime....officially. Could there be something to that, so just something Eva managed to pull of with time and money?

Whole thing is that all the bodies were missing, excluding Nanjo's body IIRC. They also only found Mammon's stake.

[LyricalAura]

Not only that, they didn't find any evidence that a crime had occurred at all, which implies that all of the blood from the victims went missing too (or at least, they weren't able to find any). If I remember correctly, there wasn't even any found on Mammon's stake, even though it was supposedly buried in Kyrie's chest.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Not only that, they didn't find any evidence that a crime had occurred at all, which implies that all of the blood from the victims went missing too (or at least, they weren't able to find any). If I remember correctly, there wasn't even any found on Mammon's stake, even though it was supposedly buried in Kyrie's chest.

In her stomach - Hideyoshi was gouged in the chest.

But the fact that only Mammon was found implies someone pulled it out of her - maybe even Kyrie herself. Or that it was never inside her to begin with, but I kinda find it hard to fake an injury like that.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Marion

Whole thing is that all the bodies were missing, excluding Nanjo's body IIRC. They also only found Mammon's stake.

Missing? I don't remember about that. Which part of EP4?

Or their bodies went missing because they were reduced to pieces...

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Marion

In her stomach - Hideyoshi was gouged in the chest.

But the fact that only Mammon was found implies someone pulled it out of her - maybe even Kyrie herself. Or that it was never inside her to begin with, but I kinda find it hard to fake an injury like that.

Don't forget that two stakes are missing. Battler definitely saw that Kyrie was gouged with a stake, but since Maria was dead at that point, nobody could confirm which stake that was. It's entirely possible that she was gouged with Belphegor or Leviathan instead. In that case, of course Mammon's stake doesn't have any blood on it -- it wasn't used to stab anybody.

But then we have to wonder why Beato was trying to cover that up. Given the gouging wounds that George and Nanjo had, it's possible that one of the loose stakes was being used as a murder weapon, but again because of the lack of blood, Mammon can't be that one either. So maybe we'll learn something if we can figure out why Mammon in particular wasn't used?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Don't forget that two stakes are missing. Battler definitely saw that Kyrie was gouged with a stake, but since Maria was dead at that point, nobody could confirm which stake that was. It's entirely possible that she was gouged with Belphegor or Leviathan instead. In that case, of course Mammon's stake doesn't have any blood on it -- it wasn't used to stab anybody.

But then we have to wonder why Beato was trying to cover that up. Given the gouging wounds that George and Nanjo had, it's possible that one of the loose stakes was being used as a murder weapon, but again because of the lack of blood, Mammon can't be that one either. So maybe we'll learn something if we can figure out why Mammon in particular wasn't used?

Someone could have just cleaned off the blood - not like there's no sinks in the mansion.

Maria never confirmed stakes though - we only ever know what stake is used for who through TIPs. I have little reason to believe TIPs lie as well, since they're there to help us more than not.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Marion

Someone could have just cleaned off the blood - not like there's no sinks in the mansion.

What purpose would cleaning the blood off just one stake serve, though? They could just bury it, or throw it in the ocean or something.

Originally Posted by Marion

Maria never confirmed stakes though - we only ever know what stake is used for who through TIPs. I have little reason to believe TIPs lie as well, since they're there to help us more than not.

Sorry, I worded that poorly. What I meant is, the only person who might have had a chance of identifying them was already dead, so how would we know if Beato was playing games with them? Like you said, there's absolutely no in-game confirmation of the identities of the stakes except for the magic scenes and the TIPS. And these are the TIPS that claim Kanon was killed at the fifth twilight in Episode 1, and that various people have been eaten by demons, you know?

EDIT:
Not to mention that they also list Kinzo as a mid-game victim in Episodes 1 and 3, even though we know that's impossible. The TIPS lie through their teeth.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Marion

Whole thing is that all the bodies were missing, excluding Nanjo's body IIRC. They also only found Mammon's stake.

I think you mixed it up. from the 1998 perspective we know nothing about what happened to the bodies except for Nanjo's. Nanjo's son said that his father's body was never found.

The Ep3 endscroll didn't say that Nanjo was missing. So it's either that the endscroll isn't reliable or the 1998 events are part of a different reality than the one shown in Ep3.

Until we have definitive proof that the 1998 we see is the continuation of the third game I won't give it for granted, and that means to me there isn't any info on what really happened to the bodies with the only exception of Nanjo's body.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Until we have definitive proof that the 1998 we see is the continuation of the third game I won't give it for granted, and that means to me there isn't any info on what really happened to the bodies with the only exception of Nanjo's body.

How can you think it's not. Eva is clearly alive there (well for a while) and there are multiple mentions of the massacre occurring.