Character Discussion - Lelouch

[GundamFan0083]

I believe Sunrise has made it clear that Lelouch isn't dead...he's just unavailable.

Spoiler for Where this quote comes from;:

That's a quote from the movie "Swimming with Sharks" where Kevin Spacey's character refers to a director David Lean as being "unavailable" (even tho he's dead).

[Zetsubou Bunny]

Well, this is kind of a complicated question really, and I have to get kind of backwards in order to answer it.

Before even attempting to discuss this I have to first point out that Lelouch doesn't think through his heart as the rest of us might. With a few exceptions, his heart is extremely selfish and consists pretty much solely of Nunnally and occasionally Suzaku. Lelouch's heart doesn't regard things like common decency, fairness, or love for your neighbour. Just a small inner circle of relationships. His heart is a little askew..

With that in mind, his actions are guided almost solely by his heart. There are situations in which he makes decisions that are more logic-driven than emotional, but that's arguable because again his 'heart' doesn't go very far. It kind of marries with the concepts of logic in those situations. Then of course there are the situations in which he blatantly thinks with his heart instead of logic, mainly when Nunnally is involved.

But THEN we get into Lelouch's mindset post-FLEIJA. Then it can be argued that he begins thinking almost solely with his mind instead of his heart. I don't think the poor guy knows an in-between. And this is where it gets tragic, and why he probably wound up hurting Nunnally more than making her happy.

Then on that note you can also argue that he was completely off-track (and probably more emotionally/ revenge-driven than we often give him credit for) right from the beginning, but that's a whole nother issue. x/

In short, I wouldn't say that he thinks with his heart as much as he thinks with his mind. I would just say that the two often unite and clash in awkward ways that would disallow us to completely label his actions one or the other.

[Zetsubou Bunny]

^^; Sometimes I feel like I may kill conversations with over-analysis..

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Wrong logic actually. The king is important for survival, the queen is important for victory.

And we all know that Lelouch only aims for victory in a battle. Without his queen, it is practically impossible that he can win battles, especially with his opponents being talented strategists in their own right. And this is not like a chess game, when he could promote any regular grunt and make him the new ace pilot..

I'll have to disagree with that. Losing the queen is merely a setback, victory is not impossible, unless you've already lost most of your other pieces in which case losing the queen is just the inevitability of having been outplayed by your opponent.

Lelouch loses Kallen in China, but he's still able to subdue the rebel factions and create the UFN, and then launch a direct assault on Area 11. He was merely at a disadvantage vs Schneizel without his #1 ace, it doesn't mean that he was automatically going to lose that game.

In the other hand, when the Black Knights lose their King because Lelouch has to go search for Nunnaly, everything goes to hell and results in total defeat for the black knights. Having the queen there did absolutely no good. Granted Kallen went after Suzaku, but it is doubtful that she'd make any difference if she had stayed with a sutherland arm and no Zero to call the shots.

[bladeofdarkness]

When lelouch loses kallen, he loses his most powerful weapon at the time
this puts him at a disadvantage in future battles, but doesnt completely destroys his chances of winning them
he effectively loses his most powerful pilot, while gaining an army that is large enough to rival that of britannia, so its not that big of a loss in the big picture
the only way to really understand the loss, and lelouch's subsequent actions in attempting to regain that loss
is to think outside the chessboard

[Revolutionist]

I don't think Lelouch goes after Kallen because he needs her as a chess piece in the grand scheme of things, but rather because he genuinely cares for her. You don't really jeopardize your entire force to save one person unless there are emotions in between, and that is something that pisses me off going back to the betrayal thing. The stupid black knights didn't stop think for a second why Lelouch would risk it all to save Kallen if they were just disposable pawns to him.

[Sol Falling]

Still, Lelouch caring for Kallen isn't necessarily the same as Lelouch caring for the Black Knights--Lelouch's "I'll find a replacement for him later" attitude towards Ougi back in S1, which Minamoto witnessed, being an example of this.

[Revolutionist]

Well, Lelouch did use them as pawns from the very start, but he eventually got attached to his pawns in a way. I mean, if they were disposable he wouldn't have gone to great lengths to rescue them, he'd just replace them.

[gaffer7]

Nice thing about Lelouch is to see the way he changes as the series progresses, originally childish, naive, and completely selfish but slowly becoming more mature and conscious of others. I don't think I've met another character yet who shows as promising a development in a series as him.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Still, Lelouch caring for Kallen isn't necessarily the same as Lelouch caring for the Black Knights--Lelouch's "I'll find a replacement for him later" attitude towards Ougi back in S1, which Minamoto witnessed, being an example of this.

Except that Ougi was incapacitated. Bit of a difference. Ougi's position needed a replacement.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Still, Lelouch caring for Kallen isn't necessarily the same as Lelouch caring for the Black Knights--Lelouch's "I'll find a replacement for him later" attitude towards Ougi back in S1, which Minamoto witnessed, being an example of this.

Well, technically, finding another pilot on Kallen's skill level is about a one-in-6-billion shot. The person being Kururugi Suzaku. And even that is arguable.

[GundamFan0083]

Considering that Kallen was handing Suzaku his ass on a silver platter during their main fight at the end of R2 (even with Suzaku's "Live" Geass upon him) I'd say Kallen is the better pilot and Kururugi is below her in skill...but that's just my opinion.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Still, Lelouch caring for Kallen isn't necessarily the same as Lelouch caring for the Black Knights--Lelouch's "I'll find a replacement for him later" attitude towards Ougi back in S1, which Minamoto witnessed, being an example of this.

Minami was entirely overreacting about that statement. Ohgi wasn't in any condition to work, so he needed a replacement. It's just common sense.

[gaffer7]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Considering that Kallen was handing Suzaku his ass on a silver platter during their main fight at the end of R2 (even with Suzaku's "Live" Geass upon him) I'd say Kallen is the better pilot and Kururugi is below her in skill...but that's just my opinion.

Her mech was supposed to have higher specs than his though... I would go for saying they're equally skilled, although I'm not going to push my point on that too much.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by gaffer7

Her mech was supposed to have higher specs than his though... I would go for saying they're equally skilled, although I'm not going to push my point on that too much.

Whatever difference there is between them is minimal, and it doesn't change the fact that Suzaku's mech was built to his full potential. He fell short, even when cheating with Geass.

[gaffer7]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Whatever difference there is between them is minimal, and it doesn't change the fact that Suzaku's mech was built to his full potential. He fell short, even when cheating with Geass.

You have a point indeed, but I can't help feeling that Suzaku was looking for a way to end the fight so it would seem that he had died when he actually hadn't, and hence couldn't fully make use of his ability. Of course, this is just my speculation.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by azul120

Except that Ougi was incapacitated. Bit of a difference. Ougi's position needed a replacement.

Guys, don't choose the more convenient interpretation of my quote just because you don't remember Lelouch being such an asshole. Lelouch wasn't talking about filling the urgent need for somebody to occupy Ougi's 'position', he was completely discarding him as even a pawn on an individual level. Here is the full quote again for your benefit:

"Ougi? It's me."
"Zero? Thank goodness..."
"Minami? What happened to Ougi?" <-- indeed, I got the name wrong
"He was shot. He has lost consciousness and is currently undergoing treatment. In addition, the culprit is still..."
"I understand. You'll suffice then." <-- Minami is already assigned as a replacement for Ougi's 'duties'.
"Can you go find what the girl in the wheelchair is doing?"
"Well, before that, Ougi is..."
"I'll think of a replacement for him later! Right now, the girl in the wheelchair comes first!"
"Replacement...?"

As you can see, the 'disposable pawn' aspect comes from Lelouch's complete disinterest in ensuring his pawn will even stay alive, not a (reasonable) willingness to assign a substitute when said pawn is unable to fulfill its duties (because, in fact, Lelouch wasn't even willing to seriously do that at the moment).

[gaffer7]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Guys, don't choose the more convenient interpretation of my quote just because you don't remember Lelouch being such an asshole. Lelouch wasn't talking about filling the urgent need for somebody to occupy Ougi's 'position', he was completely discarding him as even a pawn on an individual level. Here is the full quote again for your benefit:

"Ougi? It's me."
"Zero? Thank goodness..."
"Minami? What happened to Ougi?" <-- indeed, I got the name wrong
"He was shot. He has lost consciousness and is currently undergoing treatment. In addition, the culprit is still..."
"I understand. You'll suffice then." <-- Minami is already assigned as a replacement for Ougi's 'duties'.
"Can you go find what the girl in the wheelchair is doing?"
"Well, before that, Ougi is..."
"I'll think of a replacement for him later! Right now, the girl in the wheelchair comes first!"
"Replacement...?"

As you can see, the 'disposable pawn' aspect comes from Lelouch's complete disinterest in ensuring his pawn will even stay alive, not a (reasonable) willingness to assign a substitute when said pawn is unable to fulfill its duties (because, in fact, Lelouch wasn't even willing to seriously do that at the moment).

I certainly agree with you that at that point of the story, they were completely second fiddle to Nunnally, individually not worth considering when compared to her possible danger. His mindset changes a bit as the series progresses in second season I think.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by gaffer7

You have a point indeed, but I can't help feeling that Suzaku was looking for a way to end the fight so it would seem that he had died when he actually hadn't, and hence couldn't fully make use of his ability. Of course, this is just my speculation.

this point has been made and claimed repeatedly
suzaku never shows any signs of giving it anything less then his best, and its doubtful he is even capable of holding back while using his live geass
he freaking ADMITS that he cant beat her even while using it

but this belongs on a different thread really

as for the black knights being disposable...
part of the reason he saves them in turn 4 is because, as guillford points out, "a zero who cant produce miracles wont inspire the public"
it was more then just saving his men, it was a way of showing that he IS zero, the "man of miracles"

[gaffer7]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

this point has been made and claimed repeatedly
suzaku never shows any signs of giving it anything less then his best, and its doubtful he is even capable of holding back while using his live geass
he freaking ADMITS that he cant beat her even while using it

Oh well, I won't argue too much about this, I'm willing to succede that I may be wrong. I just think that they didn't want to reveal too much so as not to spoil the surprise; also, Suzaku's line of "I can't make it decisive" seems less conclusive to me than "I can't beat her". Of course that's SS-Eclipse subs; since I don't know Japanese, the original meaning may be exactly the same, it just leaves things slightly ambiguous in English I guess.

Leaving that aside, I'm sure when he was rescuing the Black Knights in ep 4 he didn't care about them individually at all, he was just making use of them while simultaneously building up the reputation of Zero to them and the public as you said.