AnimeSuki Forums

Znozzy · 2011-12-23, 07:33

The attackers are special Ops given the latest marine Mobile suits, Durandal being surprised Lacus was at orb in the later episodes (imo, i assumed that he thought she was dead/Missing)

Durandal's talk with Athrun about her whereabouts

Meer's creation

Durandal knows Lacus can't be controlled, so he decided to create Meer to take her place, Meer would be easier to handle than Lacus.

Create perfect copy > Eliminate original

winter45 · 2011-12-23, 07:46

IVe said my piece years ago about those special ops with skills of 8 year olds playing cod.. which im not going go over again.

Those special ops are unamarked meaning could of been anyone. Since none of the operatives were captured we wont know who sent them if successfully interrogated. It does point at Durrandal but still not solid facts. For all we know those suits may have been stolen like nearly everything else in this show has. (perhaps a recovery of a black box or similar could even tells us their flight path where it came from etc)

Now with meer and lacus in a neutral standpoint i see it as circumstantial. But everyone is allowed to make an opinion. But im kinda wanting evidence which is nothing less than durrandal himself either stating or shown animated that he gave the order.

Znozzy · 2011-12-23, 08:05

with all the evidence pointing towards him, i'm surprised you don't suspect him being behind it, but that's your opinion, i respect that

Specials ops having skills of 8 year olds though, that goes for pretty much everyone in Destiny, so that point would pretty much be moot.

Them blowing themselfs up instead of being captured pretty much prooves they had connections to Plant/Zaft/Durandal, or another hidden agenda.

Seeing how noone else was after Öacus other than Durandal points towards him aswell, if there was other fractions looking for her it would've been mentioned in the show.

winter45 · 2011-12-23, 08:16

Znozzy i have said numerous time it does point at durrandal which in turn means i do agree. But im also looking at a neutral stand point here, which applies im looking for reason why it wouldn't be him. After considering pro's and cons, its not conclusive. So now asking for the original poster if he has other form of facts to support his/her claim.

But if were going to use in *show logic* then lets go by this... Kira good side.. durrandal bad side... so since durrandal is bad it had to be him. This is a very simplified way of looking at it and im guessing its target audience would be thinking in a very similar fashion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Them blowing themselfs up instead of being captured pretty much prooves they had connections to Plant/Zaft/Durandal, or another hidden agenda.

This doesn't prove anything in regards to their source.. what it does prove is that they failed their mission and now forced to eliminate any evidence that will lead back to their faction.

Znozzy · 2011-12-23, 08:21

Then present fact from the anime that points towards the opposite? sofar you havn't really done so, the Newest Marine Mobile suits being stolen doesn't really add up since it wasnt shown in the actual anime, when all the points i've presented sofar do point towards Durandal targetting her.

i am looking at it from a Neutral stand point, but all the evidence points towards Durandal, while nothing points towards anyone else

winter45 · 2011-12-23, 08:36

Evidence does not equate as facts, even tho i agree the evidence is pointing at Durrandal, im still looking for facts. This is what im aiming for.

But now i think we are spiraling out of topic.. there is a lacus assassination thread somewhere....

Znozzy i do apologize i went back re-reading our posts and i made a major error, i used the word *evidence* when i should of used the word *fact* which triggered the whole back and forth and could of saved us time doing other fun things to do.

Znozzy · 2011-12-23, 08:57

oh, its fine, don't worry about it, i love debating, i hold no ill feelings

XFreedom · 2011-12-23, 12:43

1. if Durandal wanted to bring true peace to PLants and Earth, why didn't he invited the real Lacus back but instead chose to make a fake Lacus. That somehow show he was a bad dude although he might be nice on the outside.

2. The first speech settle things down, but the true purpose of it is to make the people believed in this fake Lacus and from that gain the trust from them. But later into the war, the chairman use this fake Lacus to spread out the climate of hate among the people on Plants and Earths, causing them to rise up and fight against the Earth Force. Or simply what he want to say is " Even the peace lover like Lacus had to fight back "

3. After the 1st speech of fLacus which bring a short length peace to Plants & Earth, the only possible resistance group that got effected is Patrick Zala's loyalists - people who wanted to start war again. Now, if they aim to kill Lacus, they would had go for the fake one. That knock out the chances of "someone else" try to assassinate Lacus.

4. Through out 2/3 of GSD episodes, only Durandal, Meer and Athrun knew about the fake Lacus (3 ship Alliance does not count as they support the real one anyway). Coordinators special force, ZAFT new marine mobile suit models, who got the power to control all of those => DURANDAL

5. Why did the chairman want to kill the real one. Simply because soon or later, the real one will appear and make it hard for Durandal to proceed his plans. Only choice -> eliminate her.

6. Bringing up the lack of shooting skills of the coordinators who wanted to assassinate real Lacus does not prove anything at all. Simply because if Lacus died, everything will be over (as Arthrun said when he was recovering from the injuries in the Archangle medic room). So in order to bring a good ending to this serie, they just have to make Lacus survive.

winter45 · 2011-12-23, 17:49

@xfreedom

Im looking for *facts* not circumstantial evidence. If you re-read my posts with znozzy ive already made it clear that i am aware and agreed upon where the *evidence* is pointing at. FYI evidence isnt foolproof either.

Admiral Larsen · 2013-05-04, 23:21

She is definitely a plot hole character of the worst order. Without any showing of her gradual transition, we're supposed to believe that she, a pop singer at 16 years old and with very bad hair can become an effective leader.

(shakes head at the insanity).

monster · 2013-05-05, 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen

She is definitely a plot hole character of the worst order. Without any showing of her gradual transition, we're supposed to believe that she, a pop singer at 16 years old and with very bad hair can become an effective leader.

(shakes head at the insanity).

Well, she has idea of what she wants, she has the resources and people who agree with her, and she's not afraid of talking in public.

I don't see any problem with the idea of Lacus being an effective leader.

At worst, you might say her being able to lead is a plot device. But a plot hole? I don't see it. Where's the hole in the plot?

Destined_Fate · 2013-05-05, 00:42

Well to be fair he didn't know where Lacus was til Destiny and by than he was already using Meer. Thus Lacus was a liability and unpredictable at that.

Aquaman OS · 2013-05-05, 01:48

I doubt Durandal ever wanted the real one. He thinks she's a troublesome anomaly that makes people think for themselves, which he apparantly views as bad (she broke Kira and Athrun out of their "my side is the only one right" mentality). She'd never endorse his plans, and he knows it. At best he might have been able to convince her to calm the plants down, but she'd never support his Logos hunt and Destiny Plan.

monster · 2013-05-05, 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

she'd never support his Logos hunt and Destiny Plan.

I think Lacus would've preferred that the LOGOS members be brought to official trial rather than be left at the mercy of the people, or lack thereof.

But, yeah, she definitely didn't agree with the Destiny Plan.

kaito-kid · 2013-05-05, 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen

She is definitely a plot hole character of the worst order. Without any showing of her gradual transition, we're supposed to believe that she, a pop singer at 16 years old and with very bad hair can become an effective leader.

(shakes head at the insanity).

*insert record scratch stop sound effect*
I was kind of with you up until this point.. Dawg u serious!? Or are you perhaps jealous?

Admiral Larsen · 2013-05-05, 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

*insert record scratch stop sound effect*
I was kind of with you up until this point.. Dawg u serious!? Or are you perhaps jealous?

Its mainly because in the shows that I've seen, it usually indicates a ditz or such. Looking at her initial presentation, it reminded me way too much of Lynn Minmay of Macross fame (which is not a good thing in my book).

S.Freedom · 2013-05-05, 11:32

Which was the whole point. Lacus was smart enough to play on the stereotypes of a ditzy idol singer so that nobody would suspect anything. And it worked, though her interaction with Rau early in Seed should be a clue.

Rising Dragon · 2013-05-05, 11:34

That moment felt more like the wrath of someone whose job had been impugned on. Lacus could've used better presentation, because as it stands she mostly came off as ditzy idol in one part of the story, guerilla combatant in the second. It was jarring for some.

monster · 2013-05-05, 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

That moment felt more like the wrath of someone whose job had been impugned on. Lacus could've used better presentation, because as it stands she mostly came off as ditzy idol in one part of the story, guerilla combatant in the second. It was jarring for some.

Regardless, it still showed that Lacus could be serious and firm when she needed to be early on.

Rising Dragon · 2013-05-05, 13:11

True. It just doesn't convey properly that she can be a proper leader in a time of war. That's what lacked buildup and comes across as a plothole. A few more scenes spread across earlier episodes before her whole guerrilla escape with the Eternal could've fixed that.

2011-12-23, 07:46	Link #582
winter45 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Australia Age: 41	IVe said my piece years ago about those special ops with skills of 8 year olds playing cod.. which im not going go over again. Those special ops are unamarked meaning could of been anyone. Since none of the operatives were captured we wont know who sent them if successfully interrogated. It does point at Durrandal but still not solid facts. For all we know those suits may have been stolen like nearly everything else in this show has. (perhaps a recovery of a black box or similar could even tells us their flight path where it came from etc) Now with meer and lacus in a neutral standpoint i see it as circumstantial. But everyone is allowed to make an opinion. But im kinda wanting evidence which is nothing less than durrandal himself either stating or shown animated that he gave the order. Last edited by winter45; 2011-12-23 at 08:37. Reason: Major typo

2011-12-23, 08:36	Link #586
winter45 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Australia Age: 41	Evidence does not equate as facts, even tho i agree the evidence is pointing at Durrandal, im still looking for facts. This is what im aiming for. But now i think we are spiraling out of topic.. there is a lacus assassination thread somewhere.... Znozzy i do apologize i went back re-reading our posts and i made a major error, i used the word evidence when i should of used the word fact which triggered the whole back and forth and could of saved us time doing other fun things to do. Last edited by winter45; 2011-12-23 at 08:49.

2013-05-05, 11:34	Link #598
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	That moment felt more like the wrath of someone whose job had been impugned on. Lacus could've used better presentation, because as it stands she mostly came off as ditzy idol in one part of the story, guerilla combatant in the second. It was jarring for some. __________________

2013-05-05, 13:11	Link #600
Rising Dragon Goat Herder Author Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	True. It just doesn't convey properly that she can be a proper leader in a time of war. That's what lacked buildup and comes across as a plothole. A few more scenes spread across earlier episodes before her whole guerrilla escape with the Eternal could've fixed that. __________________

2011-12-23, 07:33	Link #581
Znozzy Praise the sun! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Sweden Age: 34	The attackers are special Ops given the latest marine Mobile suits, Durandal being surprised Lacus was at orb in the later episodes (imo, i assumed that he thought she was dead/Missing) Durandal's talk with Athrun about her whereabouts Meer's creation Durandal knows Lacus can't be controlled, so he decided to create Meer to take her place, Meer would be easier to handle than Lacus. Create perfect copy > Eliminate original

2011-12-23, 08:05	Link #583
Znozzy Praise the sun! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Sweden Age: 34	with all the evidence pointing towards him, i'm surprised you don't suspect him being behind it, but that's your opinion, i respect that Specials ops having skills of 8 year olds though, that goes for pretty much everyone in Destiny, so that point would pretty much be moot. Them blowing themselfs up instead of being captured pretty much prooves they had connections to Plant/Zaft/Durandal, or another hidden agenda. Seeing how noone else was after Öacus other than Durandal points towards him aswell, if there was other fractions looking for her it would've been mentioned in the show.

2011-12-23, 08:21	Link #585
Znozzy Praise the sun! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Sweden Age: 34	Then present fact from the anime that points towards the opposite? sofar you havn't really done so, the Newest Marine Mobile suits being stolen doesn't really add up since it wasnt shown in the actual anime, when all the points i've presented sofar do point towards Durandal targetting her. i am looking at it from a Neutral stand point, but all the evidence points towards Durandal, while nothing points towards anyone else

2011-12-23, 08:57	Link #587
Znozzy Praise the sun! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Sweden Age: 34	oh, its fine, don't worry about it, i love debating, i hold no ill feelings

2011-12-23, 12:43	Link #588
XFreedom Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2011	1. if Durandal wanted to bring true peace to PLants and Earth, why didn't he invited the real Lacus back but instead chose to make a fake Lacus. That somehow show he was a bad dude although he might be nice on the outside. 2. The first speech settle things down, but the true purpose of it is to make the people believed in this fake Lacus and from that gain the trust from them. But later into the war, the chairman use this fake Lacus to spread out the climate of hate among the people on Plants and Earths, causing them to rise up and fight against the Earth Force. Or simply what he want to say is " Even the peace lover like Lacus had to fight back " 3. After the 1st speech of fLacus which bring a short length peace to Plants & Earth, the only possible resistance group that got effected is Patrick Zala's loyalists - people who wanted to start war again. Now, if they aim to kill Lacus, they would had go for the fake one. That knock out the chances of "someone else" try to assassinate Lacus. 4. Through out 2/3 of GSD episodes, only Durandal, Meer and Athrun knew about the fake Lacus (3 ship Alliance does not count as they support the real one anyway). Coordinators special force, ZAFT new marine mobile suit models, who got the power to control all of those => DURANDAL 5. Why did the chairman want to kill the real one. Simply because soon or later, the real one will appear and make it hard for Durandal to proceed his plans. Only choice -> eliminate her. 6. Bringing up the lack of shooting skills of the coordinators who wanted to assassinate real Lacus does not prove anything at all. Simply because if Lacus died, everything will be over (as Arthrun said when he was recovering from the injuries in the Archangle medic room). So in order to bring a good ending to this serie, they just have to make Lacus survive.

2011-12-23, 17:49	Link #589
winter45 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Australia Age: 41	@xfreedom Im looking for facts not circumstantial evidence. If you re-read my posts with znozzy ive already made it clear that i am aware and agreed upon where the evidence is pointing at. FYI evidence isnt foolproof either.

2013-05-04, 23:21	Link #590
Admiral Larsen Member Join Date: Aug 2012	She is definitely a plot hole character of the worst order. Without any showing of her gradual transition, we're supposed to believe that she, a pop singer at 16 years old and with very bad hair can become an effective leader. (shakes head at the insanity).

2013-05-05, 00:42	Link #592
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	Well to be fair he didn't know where Lacus was til Destiny and by than he was already using Meer. Thus Lacus was a liability and unpredictable at that.

2013-05-05, 01:48	Link #593
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	I doubt Durandal ever wanted the real one. He thinks she's a troublesome anomaly that makes people think for themselves, which he apparantly views as bad (she broke Kira and Athrun out of their "my side is the only one right" mentality). She'd never endorse his plans, and he knows it. At best he might have been able to convince her to calm the plants down, but she'd never support his Logos hunt and Destiny Plan.

2013-05-05, 11:32	Link #597
S.Freedom Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: On the edge of insanity Age: 44	Which was the whole point. Lacus was smart enough to play on the stereotypes of a ditzy idol singer so that nobody would suspect anything. And it worked, though her interaction with Rau early in Seed should be a clue.