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Old 2015-05-21, 20:09   Link #41
marvelB
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^It was already kinda hinted when Zoro finished off Pica, but I think the strength of one's CoA depends on the person, more or less. So while Zoro was superior to Pica, Dofla is just THAT much stronger than either of them. But also notice that the strings, as tough and resilient at they are, were still unable to slice apart the sea stone-coated factory (a fact that Franky is currently taking advantage of). So as powerful as Dofla is, he still isn't at the level to slice through something as hard as diamond, either.


....Actually, in retrospect, this makes me all the more curious about Mihawk. When Jozu blocked the attack that was meant for Whitebeard at Marineford, I sorta thought he still wasn't going all-out at that time. But now this really makes me wonder if even the current world's strongest swordsman is incapable of cutting through a substance as hard as diamond? If true, then I think the point when Zoro is able to slash through those ultra-hard substances is the point where he'll finally surpass the hawk eyes.....
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Old 2015-05-21, 22:11   Link #42
itachi-san314
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....Actually, in retrospect, this makes me all the more curious about Mihawk. When Jozu blocked the attack that was meant for Whitebeard at Marineford, I sorta thought he still wasn't going all-out at that time. But now this really makes me wonder if even the current world's strongest swordsman is incapable of cutting through a substance as hard as diamond? If true, then I think the point when Zoro is able to slash through those ultra-hard substances is the point where he'll finally surpass the hawk eyes.....
actually, that makes a lot of sense story-wise so I believe it to be true. if Mihawk has a limit to his power, then Zoro being able to break that barrier would prove that his character surpassed Mihawk and achieved his goal of being the best swordsman, possibly ever.
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Old 2015-05-21, 23:30   Link #43
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In reference to the long debates that took place last chapter in these forums concerning Luffy's and Doflamingo's relative power levels (not going to go through them all again), I wonder how the revelation about Doflamingo being on his last legs this chapter is going to be seen by those who took part in it and if it changes their views at all.

Also the inability of Zoro to cut through the birdcage despite using haki should hopefully put to rest any notion of him being considered a top tier fighter, and a match for even an admiral like Fujitora, let alone Doflamingo himself.
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Old 2015-05-22, 00:05   Link #44
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^It was already kinda hinted when Zoro finished off Pica, but I think the strength of one's CoA depends on the person, more or less. So while Zoro was superior to Pica, Dofla is just THAT much stronger than either of them.
I totally agree that the strength of one's Haki is determined by the strength of the person and that they aren't equal amounts between people, but the disparity here could be really huge. the sheer size of the Birdcage is daunting. We now know that Haki is a finite amount of energy right? so Mingo infused Haki into his strings covering a massive distance/surface area while Zoro is only infusing his swords. I would think that Zoro's Haki should be denser (more powerful) since it's spread over such a smaller area, but apparently Mingo is just that strong and his Haki is still more powerful even stretched so thin. Or Haki might not work that way I suppose.
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Old 2015-05-22, 05:17   Link #45
solidguy
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
Stopping the Birdcage and freeing people are side-effects of him winning the fight. To think that Luffy would be fine with escaping Mingo as long as the birdcage was destroyed and the people are somehow safe is to not know Luffy's character. He's too prideful and hard-headed to give up on a declaration of beating someone. For reference, just refer to every boss fight he's had in the story. His primary objective is always knocking them out.
I fundamentally disagree with you on this point. Although we've had instances of Luffy fighting out of vengeance (Arlong) by and large Luffy has fought out of a sense of justice for the people and to protect them. From Don Krieg to Crocodile to rescuing Robin right down to Caesar Clown, each time Luffy fights as a means to another goal not as the end condition. Eneru was about to destroy Sky Island, Luffy defeated him to prevent that. Hody Jones wanted to kill the merman king, Luffy defeated him to prevent that.

Although Luffy may fight with pride and 'hard-headedness' it is not what motivates him. What motivates him is his inclination to do the right thing and see justice done in the world which is why he would make a fantastic pirate king. I'm sure if Crocodile lost hope and left Alabasta alone Luffy wouldn't chase him down to the ends of the earth to knock him out...thus his primary objective is not to knock someone out it's to neutralize the threat.
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Old 2015-05-22, 05:51   Link #46
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
I totally agree that the strength of one's Haki is determined by the strength of the person and that they aren't equal amounts between people, but the disparity here could be really huge. the sheer size of the Birdcage is daunting. We now know that Haki is a finite amount of energy right? so Mingo infused Haki into his strings covering a massive distance/surface area while Zoro is only infusing his swords. I would think that Zoro's Haki should be denser (more powerful) since it's spread over such a smaller area, but apparently Mingo is just that strong and his Haki is still more powerful even stretched so thin. Or Haki might not work that way I suppose.
That seems unlikely as that would mean even Fuji's haki is considerably weaker than Doffy's. Surely an admiral can concentrate his haki on Doffy's haki strings and cut them even if Zoro couldn't.
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Old 2015-05-22, 06:40   Link #47
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
I totally agree that the strength of one's Haki is determined by the strength of the person and that they aren't equal amounts between people, but the disparity here could be really huge. the sheer size of the Birdcage is daunting. We now know that Haki is a finite amount of energy right? so Mingo infused Haki into his strings covering a massive distance/surface area while Zoro is only infusing his swords. I would think that Zoro's Haki should be denser (more powerful) since it's spread over such a smaller area, but apparently Mingo is just that strong and his Haki is still more powerful even stretched so thin. Or Haki might not work that way I suppose.
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That seems unlikely as that would mean even Fuji's haki is considerably weaker than Doffy's. Surely an admiral can concentrate his haki on Doffy's haki strings and cut them even if Zoro couldn't.
Considering your agruments I've come with a solution . If for Haki's density it doesn't matter if its used on huge area(as DD's birdcage) or something smaller(like Zoro's swords) it will be understandable for Zoro and Fujitora not being able to cut through birdcage's strings if DD's haki is stronger. Otherwise atleast one of them should be able to cut it if itachi-san314 is right about haki and its density. And btw I think if Fujitora could've cut through them as imza said he would've done it long time ago but who knows maybe he wants to see innocent people dying.
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Old 2015-05-22, 08:57   Link #48
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In reference to the long debates that took place last chapter in these forums concerning Luffy's and Doflamingo's relative power levels (not going to go through them all again), I wonder how the revelation about Doflamingo being on his last legs this chapter is going to be seen by those who took part in it and if it changes their views at all.

Also the inability of Zoro to cut through the birdcage despite using haki should hopefully put to rest any notion of him being considered a top tier fighter, and a match for even an admiral like Fujitora, let alone Doflamingo himself.
Zoro
I think he is considered top tier. He just needs a chance to fight one that's all. Luffy's gear 4 put him ahead of Daflamingo for a few mins. Just think what zoro's trump card can do. I personally don't think Vice Admiral Bastilla can defeat zoro. If he can't then Admiral admiral rank is the only one. I wonder if Bartolomeo's devil fruit can stand up to the cage? Nothing seems to be able break hi barrier. Just a shame he can't make bigger. If I were Bartolomeo I would shield luffy for the remaining time. I don't think even Daflamingo can cut it.

Chapter 787
Luffy kicked some serious ass. Daflamingo is wobbling the whole time. Usually his string ability can recover from anything but he weak this time. Has for Zoro his haki looks weird when he he covering his sword. It kind a looks like it is liquid.

Last edited by grey_1960; 2015-05-22 at 09:14.
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Old 2015-05-22, 09:15   Link #49
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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I personally don't think Vice Admiral Bastilla can defeat zoro. If he can't then Admiral admiral rank is the only one.
Let's be honest here, with the exception of Garp, the vice admirals suck. They've been nothing more than hype tools. So saying that Zoro can beat Bastille doesn't say much. The gap between vice admirals and admirals is ridiculously big.
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Old 2015-05-22, 09:25   Link #50
grey_1960
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^
True. But Luffy proved with the gear 4 that they can fight it out with the top. Daflamingo is in bad condition. Daflamingo has shown his willingness to strike and conspire to kill an admiral in the past. He struck admiral at the palace. That could gone different direction if admiral fujitori decided to meet that challenge. That would have been interesting. I think Admiral fujitori is stronger the Daflamingo. But that was a bold move from Daflamingo to challenge fujitori like that.
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Old 2015-05-22, 10:30   Link #51
itachi-san314
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I fundamentally disagree with you on this point. Although we've had instances of Luffy fighting out of vengeance (Arlong) by and large Luffy has fought out of a sense of justice for the people and to protect them.
you missed my point. of course there are always reasons Luffy gets into fights. He doesn't usually just go looking for them after all. But once a fight starts, winning becomes his primary goal. There is no chance he would turn tail and run away if it meant accomplishing whatever his goals were before the fight started. That is the notion I was responding to and that isn't in Luffy's character.

^also, aren't you quoting me from a different thread here?

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That seems unlikely as that would mean even Fuji's haki is considerably weaker than Doffy's. Surely an admiral can concentrate his haki on Doffy's haki strings and cut them even if Zoro couldn't.
then what is the reason he hasn't ended the Birdcage? He's a Navy Admiral just watching an island get massacred?

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Zoro
Luffy's gear 4 put him ahead of Daflamingo for a few mins.
no it didn't. fighting consists of offense of defense. as was said over and over last chapter thread, a hyper-powered offense is useless if you can't break someone's defense and you just get tired out.
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Old 2015-05-22, 10:31   Link #52
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Ok, Zoro can't slice through the strings, i'm somewhat surprised about it, but it's not unreasonable.
Personally i would have made him able to slice through few of them, but have them instantly regenerate instead.

But, the strings can't cut through Zoro's haki coated swords either, so it's kinda of a draw in that front.
Though it is impressive that Dolfy can keep the bird cage going, coated in Haki, and still not go down from the gear 4th barrage.
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Old 2015-05-22, 13:40   Link #53
imza
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then what is the reason he hasn't ended the Birdcage? He's a Navy Admiral just watching an island get massacred?
That's exactly my point, Fuji would not just be standing there if he could do something about the cage.

That to me indicates that the strings are not strong because they are covered in Haki but more just strong by themselves.

If the theory that Doffy's haki, even widely distributed around the whole cage, is still stronger than Zoro's concentrated Haki, than the same would be true for Fuji. However, considering that Fuji is probably stronger than Doffy, it's highly unlikely that Fuji has such a drastically weaker Haki than him.
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Old 2015-05-22, 15:14   Link #54
itachi-san314
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That's exactly my point, Fuji would not just be standing there if he could do something about the cage.

That to me indicates that the strings are not strong because they are covered in Haki but more just strong by themselves.

If the theory that Doffy's haki, even widely distributed around the whole cage, is still stronger than Zoro's concentrated Haki, than the same would be true for Fuji. However, considering that Fuji is probably stronger than Doffy, it's highly unlikely that Fuji has such a drastically weaker Haki than him.
aren't you saying that Doffy's strings alone are stronger than Fuji, but also that Fuji is probably stronger than Doffy? If Fuji is not breaking the Birdcage because he can't do it physically then Doffy is certainly stronger than Fuji. He could just crush him in a Birdcage and beat him. But...

I agree that Fuji is probably stronger than Doffy since he's an Admiral, which is why I'm trying to make sense of this Birdcage issue. Fuji is either weaker than Doffy which isn't likely, or he's letting a massacre happen for some reason. And this is after he's already said how much he disagrees with the Warlord system.
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Old 2015-05-22, 21:45   Link #55
imza
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aren't you saying that Doffy's strings alone are stronger than Fuji, but also that Fuji is probably stronger than Doffy? If Fuji is not breaking the Birdcage because he can't do it physically then Doffy is certainly stronger than Fuji. He could just crush him in a Birdcage and beat him. But...

I agree that Fuji is probably stronger than Doffy since he's an Admiral, which is why I'm trying to make sense of this Birdcage issue. Fuji is either weaker than Doffy which isn't likely, or he's letting a massacre happen for some reason. And this is after he's already said how much he disagrees with the Warlord system.
Well it makes more sense that Doffy's strings are indestructible than the fact that Doffy's very spread apart Haki is stronger than Zoro or Fuji's concentrated Haki. And the fact that his strings are indestructible doesn't mean he is stronger than Fuji, I'd imagine if Fuji did not put his faith in Luffy right now, he would killed Doffy if he needed to before the birdcage fully closed in.
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Old 2015-05-23, 05:40   Link #56
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Fujitora will not try to oppose Doflamingo's move, meaning he won't do anything regarding the birdcage.
He'll just try his best saving the civilians, and not try to get into Doflamingo's way.

Fujitora already made his intensions clear with DD, in the place:

"From this point onward, no matter which of its flaws come to bear light...I am nothing but a blind man. Which means I will not be able to see them. So do not worry."

Also, it won't be far fetch that no one in Dressrosa can break the cage, without destroying the whole country. Even an admiral has their limitations, just like WB failing to destroy those fortified walls at marineford.
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Old 2015-05-23, 11:56   Link #57
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no it didn't. fighting consists of offense of defense. as was said over and over last chapter thread, a hyper-powered offense is useless if you can't break someone's defense and you just get tired out.
Yes It did
That's interesting tell me did Daflamingo ever once have the advantage over luffy, like Luffy did when he was in gear 4? It only the gear 4's weakness that has given Daflamingo a chance to kill luffy. What defense does an individual like daflamingo have if luffy can finish him on the next run? The defense was broke that's why he is wobbling, his fruit is barely holding him together.
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Old 2015-05-23, 12:53   Link #58
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Listen. How can you not see this. Luffy's attacks did not affect Doflamingo. Gear 2nd was too weak, Gear 3rd was too slow. He got in a couple of good hits on Doflamingo, but they had no effect, because they were too weak to hurt him. Doflamingo can bee seen with crossed arms and smiling directly after being sent flying by Luffy, because he doesn't care. The only hit pre Gear 4th, that had an effect, was the Red Hawk, which only hit because Law helped Luffy set it up. So yes, Doflamingo did have the advantage over Luffy. Luffy did not have the means to beat Doflamingo without Gear 4th. While in Gear 4th, he gave him a good fight. In fact, he dominated him, but he wasn't able to defeat his opponent in the time he was able to hold up Gear 4th. And the mode hurt him more than it did his opponent. Now, he is dependant on the help of Sabo and the colosseum fighters to protect him from Doflamingo. Why? Because he lost the fight and would be killed if it weren't for the support he's receiving.

This fight is over and Doflamingo won. Luffy will win the battle for Dressrosa (with help), but he lost the (1 on 1) fight.
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Old 2015-05-23, 14:57   Link #59
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Yes It did
That's interesting tell me did Daflamingo ever once have the advantage over luffy, like Luffy did when he was in gear 4? It only the gear 4's weakness that has given Daflamingo a chance to kill luffy. What defense does an individual like daflamingo have if luffy can finish him on the next run? The defense was broke that's why he is wobbling, his fruit is barely holding him together.
seriously, it didn't

it's funny how you reference that Mingo is wobbly, but ignore that Luffy can barely move...

I can imagine you watching a boxing match where one guy gets knocked out and you proclaim him to be the winner because he got more hits in
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Old 2015-05-24, 04:00   Link #60
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Getting away from the Luffy and Doflamingo power level debate for a bit, anyone care to speculate as to why Burgess decided to use non haki attacks against Sabo when they fought? Surely he knew they would have been ineffective, considering what happened earlier at the coliseum right?
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