Kyoto Animation: Studio discussion, speculation, and whatnot.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Konakaga

First, K-On was focused on a 5 girls ensemble

You're both wrong, Azusa isn't promoted to main character until episode 9, meaning season one is about approximately 4.43 cute girls doing cute things.

Originally Posted by acejem

If you want to be nitpicky about the number of girls in an ensemble go ahead, but doesn't change the fact that its still "cute girls doing cute things". I would still count shows like Azumanga Daioh and Pani Poni Dash as "cute girls doing cute things", just in those cases, it also has a "lulrandom" element. I don't have a problem with studios going for cashcow series once in a while, but when they devote nearly all their energy into it, it is seriously asking for it to be criticized.

While I see your point, I'd also argue that KyoAni isn't given enough credit for the fact it does actually vary things from 4koma adaptation to 4koma adaptation. Even the two K-On! seasons felt noticeably different to me in a number of respects, and the fact that the second season was clearly the better of the two because of it is to Kyoto's credit in my eyes.

Of course, given that a) I have a weakness for cute slice of life and b) I feel that EF and True Tears proved that Shaft and PA Works can do VN style works just as well as the Key-KyoAni combo, I freely admit that I also just really don't care that much.

Originally Posted by acejem

And I would love to see KyoAni do something different other than Key adpations or 4koma adaptions, but the problem they do not. Other than Key adaptations or 4 koma adaptations, they are riding the success of their Haruhi franchise. I think it's fairly safe to say they ditched FMP at this point.

I'm a bit surprised FMP hasn't gone to someone else by now, but then again, the episode count needed do the post-TSR storyline from the novels without having to end the series at an unsatisfying point would be quite high by modern standards, making the project high risk.

Originally Posted by acejem

@0utf0xZer0: At the current rate, I'm fairly sure Madoka Magica is going to beat Bakemonogatari in terms of TV DVD/Blu-ray sales. I forgot where it was, but I remember cited facts that Madoka Magica is the most discussed series ever on 2chan aside from Haruhi Suzumiya. And the series hasn't even finished.

I'm aware that Madoka Magica is going to sell unreal numbers of discs, I just think that it may also create an opening for a "back to basics" moe show to really clean up sales wise in its wake.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

But the worst thing is that it worked. So Kadokawa was right. After all, the fans won't mind being crapped on, as long as you put an effort every now and then.

Eh, I'm actually a supporter of the theory that the biggest beneficiary of endless eight was actually Akiyuki Shinbo and Shaft. Endless Eight did not sell nearly as well as the other Haruhi products and all that otaku spending money had to go somewhere.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Eh, I'm actually a supporter of the theory that the biggest beneficiary of endless eight was actually Akiyuki Shinbo and Shaft. Endless Eight did not sell nearly as well as the other Haruhi products and all that otaku spending money had to go somewhere.

It sold well (10000+) for what's basically the same episode, lol. Sure it's bad for compared to the franchise, but the first season was actually better (well it had more content) and the second season wasn't even a season as much as it was a reairing.

I mean, what other franchise could get away with a gimmick like that? I mean how can it sell as much as Kanon 2006? (which at least, had content)

[brocko]

Well Haruhi had always revolved around one gimmick or another so Endless Eight stayed true to nature of the series at the very least

But you're right i don't think any other franchise could get away with something like that except bar another juggernaut franchise of equal or greater size.

Also i wonder how much of the Season 2 sales were blind-sales. I mean wasn't that the whole purpose of keeping quiet about the new episodes in the 09 reairring?

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

It sold well (10000+) for what's basically the same episode, lol. Sure it's bad for compared to the franchise, but the first season was actually better (well it had more content) and the second season wasn't even a season as much as it was a reairing.

I mean, what other franchise could get away with a gimmick like that? I mean how can it sell as much as Kanon 2006? (which at least, had content)

Endless Eight didn't sell as well as Kanon 2006 did... Haruhi season 2 as a whole did, but that's mainly because Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody (which I thought was great) seriously skews the average.

Now if you're asking how E8 sold 15K, I credit that more to "need it to complete my collection" than rational buying.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Endless Eight didn't sell as well as Kanon 2006 did... Haruhi season 2 as a whole did, but that's mainly because Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody (which I thought was great) seriously skews the average.

Now if you're asking how E8 sold 15K, I credit that more to "need it to complete my collection" than rational buying.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...92#post1348992
has Kanon selling around 18k; 15k's pretty close.

And if people are buying it for the sake of collecting, I guess content really doesn't matter then.

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...92#post1348992
has Kanon selling around 18k; 15k's pretty close.

And if people are buying it for the sake of collecting, I guess content really doesn't matter then.

"Sake of Collection" reason only works for sequels if the original's content is/was good enough to cause such passion for the series really .

[winhlp32]

A big problem(?) with Kyoani is this:

Full Metal Panic - Kadokawa
Air - Key
Haruhi - Kadokawa
Kanon - Key
Lucky Star - Kadokawa,
Clannad - Key
Munto - Original
K-on! - Honbunsha
Nichijou - Kadokawa

Kadokawa Shoten and Key/Visual Arts are big Otaku-centric companies within the anime business. They have a deal with Kyoani: They pay lots of money to Kyoani, who in return animate their products to a high(subjective) standard. How much money? Well, high enough for there to be a clear difference between the first season of K-On! and any Kadokawa or Key production with regards to presentation.

Since Key has apparently gone over to PA works, if you want Kyoto to animate something with more substance, tell Kadokawa to stop throwing otaku mascots at them, or ask them to switch business partners(unlikely since the partnership is clearly profit mutualism).

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Konakaga

"Sake of Collection" reason only works for sequels if the original's content is/was good enough to cause such passion for the series really .

I guess, but comparing the 2 numbers still makes me want to cry.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by winhlp32

Since Key has apparently gone over to PA works, if you want Kyoto to animate something with more substance, tell Kadokawa to stop throwing otaku mascots at them, or ask them to switch business partners(unlikely since the partnership is clearly profit mutualism).

Too early to say at this point as Angels Beats was P A Works' first and only Key adaptation so far. Not to mention it was an anime original piece and not based off one of Key's VNs. I think the only reason it got the label "Key" was they pretty much "own" Jun Maeda .

[Ithekro]

We might see what or where Key decideds to go after Rewrite is released.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by acejem

Firstly, I said they nearly devote all their energy and secondly I said it was for both Key and 4koma adaptations. Let's have a look:

I think listing them as separate works does a disservice to the amount of work each project had--for instance, do you really think the Lucky Star or Nichijou OVAs took the same level of effort as the Disappearance movie or a run of Clannad? Your criticisms can also be applied to the studios you listed--studios that produce anime from hot blooded shonen manga, studios that produce from fanservice material, etc. Will you criticize JC staff for spending most of their energy on shonen manga and seinen light novels? Will you criticize Bones for spending most of their energy on original properties and shonen manga? It would help if you were more specific, because using Key or 4koma as a basis for comparison don't really allow one to qualitatively describe their contents.

I also agree with 0utf0xZer0's point that they do different approaches with the 4koma series they have adapted. If you look at Lucky Star it really indulges in the otaku subculture much further than the source material's jokes and integrates a level of storytelling to fill in character relations. Their adaptation of K-on (a manga I find vapid enough to not buy despite owning K-on DVDs, BRs, and other merchandise...) turned a series of plain 4 koma jokes that occasionally had something to do with music into an after school special that idealized the high school experience and coming of age.

[blooglah24]

Originally Posted by acejem

Nichijou - 4koma

This is a false statement. Nichijou is drawn as a traditional manga, not a 4koma. It does however make use of the 4koma format very rarely and for special short chapters, as many other manga do. Looking over my copy of the latest volume I see maybe 10 pages in the 4koma format out of a total of 150+ pages.

Have a look at what other studios such as Madhouse, J C Staff, Bones, Gainax, Gonzo, Pierrot etc have produced. Their list and history is MUCH more diverse.

This comparison is kind of pointless considering that all those studios and Kyoani work quite differently. JC Staff was the main studio behind 5 series in one season alone a little while ago. It's the same deal with those other studios.

Kyoani on the other hand has only been the main studio behind a grand total of 9 franchises in their 30 year history. When other studios are producing more series in 1 year than you have in 9 years (2003, which is when they made the jump from subcontractor to full fledged studio), then of course those other studios are gonna have more diverse portfolio's.

Originally Posted by Konakaga

Studios such as Bones, J.C. staff, Madhoue, or such simply have more variety because they're able to make more series per year, look at any given year and they'll each have made at least 5 series generally, compared to Kyo-ani doing at most 5 a year, which tells me they probably don't[or didn't in the past] have the resources to produce that many series a year....

Not quite. The reason why Kyoani produces so few series isn't because of a lack of resources. In fact, they are one of the biggest studios in the industry as far as staff count goes. They produce so few series compared to other studios simply because of the way they work.

While other studios divide their staff members and manpower into as many projects as they can (making up for the rest of the staff through freelancers, subcontracting studios, and outsourcing), Kyoani devotes all of it's resources into a single series (or 2, as in the case with 2009, which was an extremely hectic year by Kyoani's standards).

If Kyoani really wanted to, they could easily produce anywhere from 3-5 shows in a season with the amount of staff members they have.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Endless Eight didn't sell as well as Kanon 2006 did... Haruhi season 2 as a whole did, but that's mainly because Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody (which I thought was great) seriously skews the average.

Now if you're asking how E8 sold 15K, I credit that more to "need it to complete my collection" than rational buying.

Haruhi's sales figures are a bit tricky to interpret:

Haruhi S1 (2006): on average 43,000 DVD's per volume

Haruhi S2 (2009): on average 18,000 DVD's per volume

Haruhi Blu-ray box S1+2 (2010): 33,000 BR (extreme sales for a boxed set)

The transition from DVD to BR makes it hard to compare Haruhi to anime that got an BR release from the get go, like Bakemonogatari and K-on. Many fans seem to have held out for a BR release. If you add up the totals Haruhi averages at 61k copies for a 28ep combined season.

In comparison combined for DVD and BR, K-on S1 sold 43K , K-on S2 is now averaging at 37k (vast majority BR). Bakemonogatari is still quite a bit ahead with 78k (bit odd as it had both high DVD and BR sales at the same time).

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by blooglah24

This is a false statement. Nichijou is drawn as a traditional manga, not a 4koma. It does however make use of the 4koma format very rarely and for special short chapters, as many other manga do. Looking over my copy of the latest volume I see maybe 10 pages in the 4koma format out of a total of 150+ pages.

Fair enough. I'll admit that I have not read any of the original Nichijou source material so I'm not familiar with the format. The content of Nichijou on the other hand based off the OVA and episode 1 seems like a slice of life/comedy series that is similar in style to Azumanga Daoih and Pani Poni Dash, which is something KyoAni is very familiar with.

This comparison is kind of pointless considering that all those studios and Kyoani work quite differently. JC Staff was the main studio behind 5 series in one season alone a little while ago. It's the same deal with those other studios.

Kyoani on the other hand has only been the main studio behind a grand total of 9 franchises in their 30 year history. When other studios are producing more series in 1 year than you have in 9 years (2003, which is when they made the jump from subcontractor to full fledged studio), then of course those other studios are gonna have more diverse portfolio's.

I know that all studios work differently, but that doesn't mean a studio should be pigeonholed into specific genres, source formats, styles etc. I respect KyoAni in that they have high production values and they put in a lot of effort into whatever they do (despite producing limited amounts of anime). I just wish they would use that talent elsewhere.

I think listing them as separate works does a disservice to the amount of work each project had--for instance, do you really think the Lucky Star or Nichijou OVAs took the same level of effort as the Disappearance movie or a run of Clannad? Your criticisms can also be applied to the studios you listed--studios that produce anime from hot blooded shonen manga, studios that produce from fanservice material, etc. Will you criticize JC staff for spending most of their energy on shonen manga and seinen light novels? Will you criticize Bones for spending most of their energy on original properties and shonen manga? It would help if you were more specific, because using Key or 4koma as a basis for comparison don't really allow one to qualitatively describe their contents.

No, of course not. Clannad and Haruhi definately took more effort and production time compared to Lucky Star, K-on or Nichijou. As for the two studios you mentioned:

J. C. Staff has been responsible for two highly acclaimed noitaminA series - Honey & Clover and Nodame Cantabile, which are josei mangas. They are responsible for producing the popular Kugimiya Rie series (Shana, Zero no Tsukaima, Hayate Combat Butler, Toradora). They also did some oddball series that you wouldn't expect such as Shigofumi and Otome Yōkai Zakuro. They also have several shojos in their belt such as Kaichou wa Maid Sama and Uragiri wa Boku. Hence, they adapt from various demographies and source material forms. I do admit that J C has been downhill in quality lately, and animation quality can differ from series to series.

As for Bones, apart from shonen manga adaptations, they've done a very popular shojo (Ouran High School), a western-cartoon like anime called Heroman, mystery series Gosick, natural disaster anime Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 and they have a notamina series called No. 6 scheduled to air next season. Like with J.C., its portfolio is much more diverse.

Even if you take away the type of source material KyoAni's adapts from, the content from KyoAni shows are very similar. They are either slice of life/4-koma like comedies or the "one guy helps with lots of girls with their problems" style, which I acknowledge is due to Key. Not much variance in content either.

[Random32]

1. I think we'll see some FMP eventually. A lot of the KyoAni staff seem to be big fans of it.

2. Nichijou just feels a lot like KyoAni's 4koma adaptations. I think instead of 4koma, a better term would be cute girls doing cute things.

3. KyoAni occasionally makes series outside their usual cute girls do cute things or Key, FMP would be an example. It's just they dont make that many series total so it doesn't seem like they made a lot of series outside their usual. Looking at your prior post, 2/9 of KyoAni franchises are something different. 22% of what Kyo Ani makes is not what they usually make. I'm not willing to find the percentage of other studios since they have a lot of franchises, but I would guess that they would be around the same.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by acejem

No, of course not. Clannad and Haruhi definately took more effort and production time compared to Lucky Star, K-on or Nichijou. As for the two studios you mentioned:

J. C. Staff has been responsible for two highly acclaimed noitaminA series - Honey & Clover and Nodame Cantabile, which are josei mangas. They are responsible for producing the popular Kugimiya Rie series (Shana, Zero no Tsukaima, Hayate Combat Butler, Toradora). They also did some oddball series that you wouldn't expect such as Shigofumi and Otome Yōkai Zakuro. They also have several shojos in their belt such as Kaichou wa Maid Sama and Uragiri wa Boku. Hence, they adapt from various demographies and source material forms. I do admit that J C has been downhill in quality lately, and animation quality can differ from series to series.

As for Bones, apart from shonen manga adaptations, they've done a very popular shojo (Ouran High School), a western-cartoon like anime called Heroman, mystery series Gosick, natural disaster anime Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 and they have a notamina series called No. 6 scheduled to air next season. Like with J.C., its portfolio is much more diverse.

Even if you take away the type of source material KyoAni's adapts from, the content from KyoAni shows are very similar. They are either slice of life/4-koma like comedies or the "one guy helps with lots of girls with their problems" style, which I acknowledge is due to Key. Not much variance in content either.

I still don't understand this arbitrary metric you use to qualify what a studio produces. You don't even mention the direction style or adaptation method they take with a series, but you'll group rather unrelated series under Kugyuu? You separate Otome Yokai Zakuro and Shigofumi as oddball but don't distinguish between the Key series or manga series Kyoani has adapted?

Kanon was a story about fulfilling promises and creating miracles. Clannad was a story about family relations and finding family. Air was about transience of interpersonal relations. FMP contrasted warfare and turmoil with the peace of school life and the occasional light hearted side story. Lucky Star was a playful criticism and indulgence of otaku subculture supported by a cast of almost by the book moe archetypes. Haruhi is a supernatural work that touches on mysteries and conspiracies with dry humor narration. K-on was a slice of life comedy with coming of age subthemes. I don't understand how this variety of themes and stories could be boxed in as similar.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Decagon

Kanon was a story about fulfilling promises and creating miracles. Clannad was a story about family relations and finding family. Air was about transience of interpersonal relations. FMP contrasted warfare and turmoil with the peace of school life and the occasional light hearted side story. Lucky Star was a playful criticism and indulgence of otaku subculture supported by a cast of almost by the book moe archetypes. Haruhi is a supernatural work that touches on mysteries and conspiracies with dry humor narration. K-on was a slice of life comedy with coming of age subthemes. I don't understand how this variety of themes and stories could be boxed in as similar.

To argue that Air, Kanon, and Clannad didn't have similar setups and themes, is well, stretching it greatly. They were all dramas in a harem setup with many characters who represented various sorts of moe archetypes. Sure they may have gained some depth from back stories or what not, and each one was a little bit varied (Air had parent child relationship, Kanon was more about friendship, Clannad was more about family), but really these stories were all too similar.

The same goes for animes like Lucky Star, K-on!, and now nichijou. They all rely on playful fun and randomness. They try to get the audience to laugh with them, and celebrate the cuteness of each anime. Again, all too similar.

FMP and Haruhi are the most unique titles they've released, which is not surprising considering they are both LN adaptations in comparison to KEY VN adaptations.

Basically people are tired of the lucky star/k-on!/nichijou formula and want a little more of their earlier formulas, or something completely new and refreshing, like FMP and Haruhi was for many people. They could even stretch it further and do something they've never done before.

I didn't mention Munto, because as everybody knows, that anime was garbage.

[Archon_Wing]

What the hell is Munto?

[Ithekro]

Perhaps they aren't tired of it at all yet which is why they can still make money off such titles.

As for Haruhi, they just did the movie and the 10th novel should be out within two months, thus giving them a good reason to tie in a third season in the not to distant future.

FMP was GONZO first, then a collection of anime studios where KyoAni gets the majority credit. It did not sell all that well compared to anything else KyoAni has done (aside from Munto) if I recall. Add to this the nature of those novels after TSR and we have high risk verse sales. Who wins that one generally if you can't justify sales verses a very long anime?

Munto was their original product...their first anime (shown online in 2003). It did well enough to get them FMP and Air. The remake and continuation of it in 2009 seems to have been mostly lost because no one cared anymore...and it was mostly a copy of the original at first (unlike the Kanon remake of 2006 which was reportedly better overall than the Toei 2002 version). I don't know how its movie (also in 2009, KyoAni's first movie) went.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Perhaps they aren't tired of it at all yet which is why they can still make money off such titles.

Well I more or less was talking from the perspective of some of the critical people in the last few pages, not for everybody in general. Of course, things like K-ON! have enjoyed considerable success and KyoAni can laugh all the way to the bank.