Common mistakes made by fansubbers

[Ryuudou]

Originally Posted by CC

Why does every "dos and don'ts in fansubbing" conversation somehow plunge into the honorifics argument? ( ；ω； )

It's probably the only thing people who don't speak Japanese can truly comment on.

[Cyprene]

Ooh, this is an interesting thread. I've been doing translation for... a while, and here's some tips I usually share with new translators that cover some of the common mistakes:

For translators:

1.) Not double-checking any number greater than 4. It is incredibly easy to write down the wrong number, and you look like a dumbass when you do it. All you have to do is accidentally press the key one over to the left of what you meant to hit, and your editor/QC will never catch it. There's nothing worse than writing down "The King's Guard has twelve ultra-mechs." and having mechs 13 and 14 show up and start trashing the heroes in the next episode.


2.) Not reading the show's website/wiki. In 2012, every show, no matter how small, will have a website and Japanese wikipedia article. These include story summaries, character profiles, and most importantly, vocabulary lists. They're also particularly helpful for in media res first episodes, where it's expected that the viewer won't know the meaning of every word or the significance of what's going on. As the translator, you have to have make sure you have as solid an understanding as possible or you're going to make a mess of things. And if you're working off an established property, there are often ENGLISH wikis devoted to the show like this one or this one. I don't know how I would've made it through the third season of Shakugan no Shana without that latter.

3.) Not double-checking when something doesn't make sense. This is very important, and unfortunately it's a skill you either have or you don't. If something seems strange, if the heroine says something totally out of character or that totally contradicts the plot up to this point, DOUBLE-CHECK IT. More often than not, you've messed something up.


For editors:

If you ever find yourself saying the words "I don't think this character would say this, so I'm going to rewrite it," then hit yourself in the face with a ball-peen hammer and save your translator the trouble. Particularly if it's in episode 3 of a show.

[DarkCntry]

My specific issues are pretty simple...

- Overuse of profanity when it's really not necessary, even if it's to 'spice' up a scene.
- Overuse of super-stylized fonts.
- Incorrect grammatical usage.
- Unabashedly literal translations that create structure issues.

Beyond that, my issue with things like honorifics is simple and not overly a big deal, just use them when it makes sense. Sama is a common offender in this. While most understand the usage of -sama to be that of respect in my areas, putting -sama in subtitles for minute interactions between business and customer is really just not needed and would probably be better flow (in English) as Mr., Mrs., Miss, Ms., sir, ma'am, etc.

[sudolicious]

Originally Posted by DarkCntry

putting -sama in subtitles for minute interactions between business and customer is really just not needed and would probably be better flow (in English) as Mr., Mrs., Miss, Ms., sir, ma'am, etc.

Yeah, I suggest "Mr. Customer" for okyaku-sama because of the great flow...

Only thing that bothers me are trollsubs, or the way some groups think "localization" is an excuse to basically come up with anything you like for the subtitles. I completely avoid Commie for example because of that, I never download anything from them. I even went with Hadena for Kore wa Zombie S2, and would do so again.

[DarkCntry]

Originally Posted by sudolicious

Yeah, I suggest "Mr. Customer" for okyaku-sama because of the great flow...

Not sure if serious here...okyaku-sama could easily be translated logically to "sir" or "ma'am" when we're talking about English flow of the situation.

But hey, this is a po-tay-toe, po-tot-toe situation in my opinion.

[Snuffle]

Okay... The title of this thread is very misleading. I'll admit I haven't read all the posts because they just seemed off topic but... I thought I was going to read something about common translation errors and such... But instead _mostly_ what I see here is just:

"I don't like how this group does this and that, I want it this way so I will write this hoping they will see it and will make it that way "

Come on... those things are not "mistakes" It's that group's preference verses your own.

However a common mistake that I continue to see these days is this (pointed out by Mystique):

"Good balance on length of lines and time on screen"

It was only yesterday that I've encountered this problem... Taking a proper English sentence and breaking it up when there is no delay when the character speaks it? Sure sometimes it's acceptable if it's cut at a proper point in the sentence.

Acceptable sentence breaking (but still should be presented all at once):
"Let's go to the store,"
"I need to buy some books."

Not Proper:
"Let's go to the store, I need to"
"buy some books."

Don't even get me started in very basic translation errors >_>;;;
Even with me knowing minimal Japanese (took only the intro course, had no time to pursue higher levels), even I could spot the errors. >_<

[SinsI]

From Kingdom and Code Geass: changing spoken names to their "Chinese equivalent" just because the person happens to be Chinese. One should always stick to what you hear, not to some arbitrary source of chinese readings for the person's name. Only the titles or places should be changed to their common English translation from the Chinese.

[Utsuro no Hako]

This isn't really a translation error per se, but I wish translators would realize they don't have to subtitle every last bit of text and background conversation.

If there's an insert shot of a text message, and then a voice-over reading the text aloud, you don't have to sub both -- the audience can figure out that they're the same.

If there's a conversation important to the plot, some unnamed characters in the background discussing what they did last weekend, an insert song, and a shot of a sign saying "Restroom," pick the important parts to translate instead of covering the screen with a wall of text that can't be read without pausing the show.

And if there is a scene were two characters are talking at the same time, and they're both saying important things, make it clear who's saying what. I've seen some subs where there are two lines of text in identical fonts, and they switch places with every line, so that one moment Person A is on top and the next he's on the bottom.

[Kokujin-kun]

Originally Posted by SinsI

From Kingdom and Code Geass: changing spoken names to their "Chinese equivalent" just because the person happens to be Chinese. One should always stick to what you hear, not to some arbitrary source of chinese readings for the person's name. Only the titles or places should be changed to their common English translation from the Chinese.

I really don't agree with that. What if you're watching an English subtitled Spanish biblical drama but you keep seeing the names "Maria," "Pedro," "Juan," "Pilato," etc in the subs? You'd think the subtitlers are off their meds. Hell, why don't we adopt Japanese pronunciation of English names, so instead of Jesus, we have "Iyesu", for example?

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Kokujin-kun

I really don't agree with that. What if you're watching an English subtitled Spanish biblical drama but you keep seeing the names "Maria," "Pedro," "Juan," "Pilato," etc in the subs? You'd think the subtitlers are off their meds. Hell, why don't we adopt Japanese pronunciation of English names, so instead of Jesus, we have "Iyesu", for example?

Well, a reason for sticking to Japanese pronunciation of chinese names/words is just because it prevents internal inconsistency (sometimes).

A good example of this is mahjong terminology.... When I used the Chinese spellings for terms like "pon" = pung, etc, that was fine for a while, until I came across terminology that had no chinese equivalent and were Japanese inventions....
Then you end up mixing chinese with japanese and everything gets confused.

On the other hand in Sket Dance I make sure to call Yamanabe-sensei's master "Master Wong" since it's totally funnier than "Master Won".

[Kokujin-kun]

You're right that there are exceptions, and there are definitely times when the original dialogue uses the Chinese pronunciation of names and objects instead of the Japanese pronunciation, and vice-versa, so some discretion may be needed.

However, I don't agree that we should automatically default to Japanese pronunciations, especially when dealing with things like RotTK adaptations. When I see people using Chinese names, I'm impressed because it shows that they did their homework. Besides, I think it might send a wrong message to the viewers who might want to learn more about the events of that novel and they tried looking up "Sou Sou" instead of "Cao Cao."

[Cyprene]

However, I don't agree that we should automatically default to Japanese pronunciations, especially when dealing with things like RotTK adaptations. When I see people using Chinese names, I'm impressed because it shows that they did their homework. Besides, I think it might send a wrong message to the viewers who might want to learn more about the events of that novel and they tried looking up "Sou Sou" instead of "Cao Cao."

I assure you that your opinion is the minority one. I did this ONCE on a sub of Ikkitousen and the reaction was so negative I vowed to never, ever do it again.

[Kokujin-kun]

I guess people don't watch Ikkitousen for the RotTK references ( ¬‿¬). While it's perfectly fine to use Japanese names, I'd rather not cater to anime fans' general lack of literacy, historical or otherwise.

[SinsI]

Originally Posted by Kokujin-kun

I guess people don't watch Ikkitousen for the RotTK references ( ¬‿¬). While it's perfectly fine to use Japanese names, I'd rather not cater to anime fans' general lack of literacy, historical or otherwise.

It's not "lack of literacy", it is better viewing experience for the viewers.

If the one watching recognizes the names with his ears he spends less time reading subtitles and more time actually enjoying the action. Using names that have nothing in common with what you hear distracts and confuses the viewers.

And that's also the reason your ""Maria," "Pedro," "Juan," "Pilato" comparisons are moot - they are close enough to be recognized, but "Eisei" and "Zhào Zhèng" are miles apart.

[Kokujin-kun]

Originally Posted by SinsI

It's not "lack of literacy", it is better viewing experience for the viewers.

Believe me, the mileages can vary on that. Some of us may place their concerns in a few words matching what the characters say letter for letter, cadence by cadence. Others, not so much. However, saying that Chinese names should not allowed by default or that they are a "mistake" is as bemusing of an argument as railing against western name orders.

And yes, blackballing the use of Chinese names in Ikkitousen despite how relevant they are to the plot is a sad example of the alarming lack of literacy and awareness among anime viewers. It's almost as if you can't make scripts that is beyond 8th-grade level anymore or else you'll get complaints about the subs "not flowing well."

[Cyprene]

I know for a fact that one of the early projects to sub that old Rot3K anime (The one with the opening by Fence of Defense) died because the fansubbers got overwhelmed trying to cross-reference the Chinese and Japanese terms. 'cause once you decide to go down that route you have to do it for EVERYTHING, including place names and obscure generals who may or may not have made it into the translation you're reading. They were a solid, experienced team who did a great job on the two or so episodes that got out, but they just couldn't keep it up.

[SinsI]

Originally Posted by Kokujin-kun

Believe me, the mileages can vary on that. Some of us may place their concerns in a few words matching what the characters say letter for letter, cadence by cadence. Others, not so much. However, saying that Chinese names should not allowed by default or that they are a "mistake" is as bemusing of an argument as railing against western name orders.

And yes, blackballing the use of Chinese names in Ikkitousen despite how relevant they are to the plot is a sad example of the alarming lack of literacy and awareness among anime viewers. It's almost as if you can't make scripts that is beyond 8th-grade level anymore or else you'll get complaints about the subs "not flowing well."

Word choices and cadences are subjective criteria, so the translators are free to do as they wish.
Amount of text you have to read and its complexity are objective criteria. Anything that increases the amount of time one have to spend on reading and understanding the subtitles is an objective flow - be it honorifics or names that differ from what one hears.

[Kokujin-kun]

Originally Posted by Cyprene

I know for a fact that one of the early projects to sub that old Rot3K anime (The one with the opening by Fence of Defense) died because the fansubbers got overwhelmed trying to cross-reference the Chinese and Japanese terms.

Well, I say they could have gotten help from a Chinese translator in those cases.

Originally Posted by SinsI

Anything that increases the amount of time one have to spend on reading and understanding the subtitles is an objective flow - be it honorifics or names that differ from what one hears.

And I still say that's taking another step closer to just writing out the entire dialogue in romanji just to satisfy the purists. There are many names and proper nouns that are translated differently from what you hear anyways, so why are Chinese names verboten?

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Kokujin-kun

Well, I say they could have gotten help from a Chinese translator in those cases.




And I still say that's taking another step closer to just writing out the entire dialogue in romanji just to satisfy the purists. There are many names and proper nouns that are translated differently from what you hear anyways, so why are Chinese names verboten?

I think the issue here stems from how ubiquitous that the story has become in Japanese culture that it's almost taken on its own identity. Yes, it's based off a story from China, but that's the _secondary_ reference. Most Rot3K animes is based off the ingrained Japanese versions of the story.

As a different example, why is Goku named Son Goku?
Shouldn't the original Dragonball translators have used the spelling "Sun Wukong"? You're making essentially the same argument.

Now when the original "neta" is chinese directly, and not indirectly, using the Chinese spelling might be more appropriate.
For example if I had translated Night Raid I would have tried to use correct Chinese spellings.

[IndustrialClef]

My only compliant is when sometimes they stop subbing at particular points like if it is side conversations or when they start speaking another language. It frustrates me because I get muddled as the subbing just halts and you start wondering why......then you loose track. I think when a certain part doesn't have subbing it should say so. Just to warn viewers. It really bugged me in this one badly subbed anime.

Yet, I really appreciate the effort these fansub groups do.