[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Renall

You only quoted me. If you intended to quote somebody else, I don't see it in there, and I thought from the response you were suggesting it was my point. Sorry if I got the wrong idea.

Originally Posted by TehChron

Episode 7 called. It says it wants you to pay the medical bills for treating the concussion brought about by the epic facepalm it just did.

Check that post, which is what you initially responded to.

kthx

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by Renall

Bern appearing as a character on a "board" is actually a very unusual event. Did you notice that? Bern and Lambda almost never "descend" to the board. That doesn't mean they can't, mind you. But they usually don't. Will also doesn't seem to make a lot of sense as a board character, as we explicitly know from his provided backstory that he is not a normal human being. Yet everyone more or less treats him as if he were.

So that's weird.

Then the Claire stuff, which Lion clearly references at the Tea Party when Claire appears, yet which otherwise is relatively insulated from the other parts of the episode.

It's kind of a twisty mess, and what happens where and what it even means for something to happen in a "place" on the meta-fictional structure is really, really important. And I won't go lecturing you on that with respect to ep7 because I have no idea yet which parts go where.You apparently don't understand that I never made that claim. So... I agree?

Will doesn't make sense as a real person, but what if he is in fact, say, Battler?
Battler joined Scotland Yard(just go with it) to find out the truth behind Rokkenjima and cam back disguised as someone. Or something.

I know it has another explanation, but I just can't help but find Battler not being in Rokkenjima when Will is rather weird.

YASHKBATTLERWILLNONTRICE

I'm kidding, mostly, but I think that seeing Battler=Will would be interesting, even if it doesn't match the episodes so far.

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by TehChron

Let's start with the simplest one to prove, namely Will's investigation, which also happens to include the most glaring example of a change to past events. Namely the existence of Lion.

Bernkastel actively created it, guides Will along it, has set it up to include the normal cast of characters, and generally abide by similar rules as the preceding games. For all intents and purposes, it's the same game as the previous episodes, just on a different game board. The inclusion of Will and Lion, as well as the difference in the setup of the chapel, are all distortions from the other games, due to alterations of events prior to the game start itself.

I understand perfectly well. But the claim that "there are no changes to the events prior to the game in all episodes" is simply erroneous.

How is that erroneous? There is not one hint of history changing in 6 episodes, and when it is changed in episode 7 we have a different type of game almost incomparable to the others.
Also, if history were allowed to change then creating theories would be utterly futile.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

How is that erroneous? There is not one hint of history changing in 6 episodes, and when it is changed in episode 7 we have a different type of game almost incomparable to the others.
Also, if history were allowed to change then creating theories would be utterly futile.

Natsuhi wasn't aware of the baby from 19 years ago in episode 6 when it was mentioned. That could be one of those hints I think...

[40511]

The writing of Ep8 has started.

Spoiler for Blog:

本当にすみません、また日記を失念してました…。

今日はいよいよEP8の執筆を開始しました。
プロットはEP7の時に比べるとかなり緩めに作ってあります。
もっときつく作ってから執筆をしようと思ったのですが、そうするとプロットに縛られて、苦しくなることもあ ります。
この辺りで一歩踏み出すことにし、とりあえず、書けるところまで書いてみようと、執筆を開始し ました。

EP8とは、どういう位置づけなのか。
実は竜騎士07自身、色々と迷いました。

『うみねこのなく頃に』の第八話、最終話。
これは迷うまでもないことです。
『ひぐらし』の祭囃し編だったなら、迷わずそう断言できます。

しかし『うみねこ』の「散」は、各エピソードごとに、一つ一つ物語を終わらせています。
EP6では、戦人とベアトの二人の物語が紡がれ、結ばれ、
EP7では、ミステリー的な真相の解明が紡がれ、結ばれ。
実は、1986年の戦人とベアトを巡る物語は、それらの個別には描き終わっているのですよね。

なら、EP8とは何なのか。
色々なものが紡がれ、結ばれてきましたが、まだ最後にいくつか、残っているモノがあります。
それらに、本当の意味で終わりを告げるエピソード。

つまりそれは、エピソードであり、ある意味、エピローグであり。
その意味では、第八話ではなく、むしろ外伝なのかもしれない。

最終話だから、飛んだり跳ねたりと派手で、大団円のエンディング。……その先入観が抜け切るまで、今回のプ ロットはだいぶ苦しみました。

最終話というよりは、「最終話より、先の物語」みたいな雰囲気かもしれません。
……んーー、自分でもうまく説明できません。

そんな不思議な空気感の作品に出来たらなぁ、という意気込みです。
書き終わってみたら、普通に飛んだり跳ねたりなシナリオだったりして。そうだったらごめんなさ い（汗）

「最終話」というより。
「終わりにするお話」。
そんなものを、描き切ろうと思います。

Looks like ep8 will solve the remaining mysteries and its not a happy end either. 8(
and

Spoiler for NOOOOO~:

the story between beato and battler was finished.

[littlegal100]

Originally Posted by 40511

The writing of Ep8 has started.

Spoiler for Blog:

本当にすみません、また日記を失念してました…。

今日はいよいよEP8の執筆を開始しました。
プロットはEP7の時に比べるとかなり緩めに作ってあります。
もっときつく作ってから執筆をしようと思ったのですが、そうするとプロットに縛られて、苦しくなることもあ ります。
この辺りで一歩踏み出すことにし、とりあえず、書けるところまで書いてみようと、執筆を開始し ました。

EP8とは、どういう位置づけなのか。
実は竜騎士07自身、色々と迷いました。

『うみねこのなく頃に』の第八話、最終話。
これは迷うまでもないことです。
『ひぐらし』の祭囃し編だったなら、迷わずそう断言できます。

しかし『うみねこ』の「散」は、各エピソードごとに、一つ一つ物語を終わらせています。
EP6では、戦人とベアトの二人の物語が紡がれ、結ばれ、
EP7では、ミステリー的な真相の解明が紡がれ、結ばれ。
実は、1986年の戦人とベアトを巡る物語は、それらの個別には描き終わっているのですよね。

なら、EP8とは何なのか。
色々なものが紡がれ、結ばれてきましたが、まだ最後にいくつか、残っているモノがあります。
それらに、本当の意味で終わりを告げるエピソード。

つまりそれは、エピソードであり、ある意味、エピローグであり。
その意味では、第八話ではなく、むしろ外伝なのかもしれない。

最終話だから、飛んだり跳ねたりと派手で、大団円のエンディング。……その先入観が抜け切るまで、今回のプ ロットはだいぶ苦しみました。

最終話というよりは、「最終話より、先の物語」みたいな雰囲気かもしれません。
……んーー、自分でもうまく説明できません。

そんな不思議な空気感の作品に出来たらなぁ、という意気込みです。
書き終わってみたら、普通に飛んだり跳ねたりなシナリオだったりして。そうだったらごめんなさ い（汗）

「最終話」というより。
「終わりにするお話」。
そんなものを、描き切ろうと思います。

Looks like ep8 will solve the remaining mysteries and its not a happy end either. 8(
and

Spoiler for NOOOOO~:

the story between beato and battler was finished.

Is that what he says on the blog? Well it's like like I expected a happy end but still

It'd be nice if I could understand this >.>

[Jan-Poo]

He doesn't say much, for what I can understand. The whole thing could be condensed into a:

"EP8 will be the last chapter and it will be a true epilogue, a true closure".

It seems that Ryuukishi feels as if EP6 and EP7 were already conclusive by themselves in their respective focuses, and therefore EP8 will be the ending of and ending.

[Used Can]

He's saying that EP8 shouldn't be thought as another episode, but rather as a side-story.
If I'm not mistaken, he's also saying EP8 won't have a "grand finale" flavour. In fact, rather than being considered as the final episode, it should be seen as a story to wrap things up. He also mentioned that this would be Umineko's epilogue.

In addition to these things, R07 mentioned that EP6 spun and tied Battler and Beato's story, and EP7 spun and tied the revelation of the truth behind the mysteries (although, he said there are a few more things to explain).

Anyway, he mentioned nothing about this being a happy or sad ending.

[40511]

He did say readers should not fully expect it to be a happy ending.

Spoiler for .:

最終話だから、飛んだり跳ねたりと派手で、大団円のエンディング。……その先入観が抜け切るま で、今回のプ ロットはだいぶ苦しみました。

[Used Can]

Oh, that one. He's basically saying what we already knew; this will be no Matsuribayashi-hen, with an extremely happy grand finale. If anyone is expecting anything like that, then EP8 will make things painfully clear.

[Renall]

I imagine there are still holdouts who believe the incident is preventable somehow, but all evidence seems to be weighted heavily against that. So it would certainly appear that most folks are going to be dead, dead, and double-dead. If that is what he's getting at, I'm not really surprised, and I don't think anyone else here is.

However, I am curious where he's going with it. Though I have some ideas, ep7 itself was a surprise in form and execution to me, so I'm not going to second guess him on how he intends to present things. I will say that I think he might be a bit misleading if what people are translating is close to accurate; even if this is a "side story" or "coda" to the stories he says he's already wrapped up, there's a very good chance it actually all ties together in one form or another, so I'd expect there to be "answers" in ep8 in at least a thematic sense, and those answers might help answer other things.

Of course, there's even or better odds he'll do something completely outside my expectations, so who knows.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Used Can

...
If I'm not mistaken, he's also saying EP8 won't have a "grand finale" flavour. In fact, rather than being considered as the final episode, it should be seen as a story to wrap things up. He also mentioned that this would be Umineko's epilogue...

If true, I will be somewhat disappointed.

I have for some time hoped that Umineko will end with another cascade of gigantic, flashy battles, akin to the EP4 and EP5 ???s. It just felt that another step into the awesome world of epic should have been taken, and the battles do that for me.

Of course, the tragedy and its bitter details may deserve a simple, quiet funeral. I don't want Umineko to end with a whimper (rather with a tremendous bang!) but if the ultimate end of the story comes down to Battler explaining to his little sister his views on the truth behind the death of their extended family (as I assume it will), then an end like that certainly deserves quiet retrospection.

I believe Ryukishi will find room for another epic soundtrack by zts, with an equally epic moment for it - perhaps in some final clash with Bernkastel and Lambda. He hasn't failed me yet. Perhaps the characters in the metaworld, fully believing in each other's existence, will continue with a happy ending (having reached the Golden Land, they will have a self-perpetuating world based on their own meta beliefs). But all of this will be a backdrop for the real life world and its painful reality, thus making the story bittersweet.

We can speculate endlessly on what EP8 will bring, but I believe it will be a satisfying conclusion, even if we have to face the possible realities of a dead family, some crazy Yasushkanontrice combo, or a thoughtless series of accidents leading to the tragedy. I personally take the opinion that there will be one last major cog in the mechanics of Umineko that we have collectively overlooked, and even if it doesn't bring a "lol-trolling time" atmosphere, it will still be a warmly received shock to the community.

EP8 will be great - we just don't know how so.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Arachanox

I have for some time hoped that Umineko will end with another cascade of gigantic, flashy battles, akin to the EP4 and EP5 ???s. It just felt that another step into the awesome world of epic should have been taken, and the battles do that for me.

Please do not be mistaken, check my previous post to see what I meant with "grand finale". I didn't mean lack of epic moments and/or closure, but a lack of "perfect (i.e. ultra happy) ending". I guess the way I use "grand finale" is just a bit different.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Please do not be mistaken, check my previous post to see what I meant with "grand finale". I didn't mean lack of epic moments and/or closure, but a lack of "perfect (i.e. ultra happy) ending". I guess the way I use "grand finale" is just a bit different.

Ah I see, we use different definitions. Well that heartens me.

Here's to hopes of one last round of troll faces and gold truths!

[LyricalAura]

Spoiler for Interview translation:

本当にすみません、また日記を失念してました…。

I'm really sorry, I forgot about my blog again....

今日はいよいよEP8の執筆を開始しました。
プロットはEP7の時に比べるとかなり緩めに作ってあります。
もっときつく作ってから執筆をしようと思ったのですが、そうするとプロットに縛られて、苦しく なることもあ ります。
この辺りで一歩踏み出すことにし、とりあえず、書けるところまで書いてみようと、執筆を開始し ました。

Today I finally started writing EP8.
Compared to EP7, I took a lot more time creating the plot.
I wanted to tighten it up more before I started writing, but when I did that, I got tied up by the plot and had a lot of trouble.
So around there I just decided to move forward and write as far as I can for the time being.

EP8とは、どういう位置づけなのか。
実は竜騎士07自身、色々と迷いました。

How should EP8 be laid out?
Actually, even I myself was hesitant about various things.

『うみねこのなく頃に』の第八話、最終話。
これは迷うまでもないことです。
『ひぐらし』の祭囃し編だったなら、迷わずそう断言できます。

The eight chapter of "Umineko no Naku Koro ni", the final chapter.
"This isn't something I should need to puzzle over."
If it were Matsuribayashi-hen in "Higurashi", I could say that without hesitation.

しかし『うみねこ』の「散」は、各エピソードごとに、一つ一つ物語を終わらせています。
EP6では、戦人とベアトの二人の物語が紡がれ、結ばれ、
EP7では、ミステリー的な真相の解明が紡がれ、結ばれ。
実は、1986年の戦人とベアトを巡る物語は、それらの個別には描き終わっているのですよね。

But with "Umineko", each episode of "Breakdown" has been ending a story, one at a time.
In EP6, the tale of Battler and Beato was spun and bound together.
In EP7, the explanation of a mystery-oriented truth was spun and bound together.
The truth is, the story revolving around Battler and Beato in 1986 has already had its ending written in those episodes, right?

なら、EP8とは何なのか。
色々なものが紡がれ、結ばれてきましたが、まだ最後にいくつか、残っているモノがあります。それらに、本当 の意味で終わりを告げるエピソード。

In that case, what is EP8 for?
Many things have been spun and bound together by now, but there are still several THINGS remaining. This episode will bring a true end to those.
[Note: Ryukishi used hiragana for "things" versus katakana for "THINGS". Compare what he does with piece versus meta character names, if you like.]

つまりそれは、エピソードであり、ある意味、エピローグであり。
その意味では、第八話ではなく、むしろ外伝なのかもしれない。

So while this is an episode, it's also kind of an epilogue.
In that sense, it might actually be a spin-off instead of the eighth chapter.

最終話だから、飛んだり跳ねたりと派手で、大団円のエンディング。……その先入観が抜け切るま で、今回のプ ロットはだいぶ苦しみました。

"It's the last part, so it has to end with flying and leaping and a flashy grand finale." ...Until I threw away that preconception, the plot this time caused me a lot of suffering.

最終話というよりは、「最終話より、先の物語」みたいな雰囲気かもしれません。
……んーー、自分でもうまく説明できません。

Rather than the final chapter, it might have an atmosphere more like "a story of what happened after the final chapter".
...Ngh, I can't even explain it well myself.

そんな不思議な空気感の作品に出来たらなぁ、という意気込みです。
書き終わってみたら、普通に飛んだり跳ねたりなシナリオだったりして。そうだったらごめんなさ い（汗）

"It'd sure be great if I could make something with that kind of strange atmosphere." That's what I'm enthusiastic about right now.
After I finish writing, it might end up as a scenario filled with flying and leaping like usual. If so, I'm sorry (sweat)

「最終話」というより。
「終わりにするお話」。
そんなものを、描き切ろうと思います。

Not a "final chapter",
but "a story to put an end to things".
That's what I want to write.

Rather than a game board, we might be focusing significantly on 1998 and the backstories of Lambda, Bern, and Featherine. On the other hand, that "mystery-oriented truth" phrase is pretty suspicious...

[Smeckledorf]

I just think that means we will be shown the truth of the tragedy in respect to a mystery. That wasn't what episode 7 showed us and though the original 4 episodes shown some of what Bernkastel showed us, Bernkastel ignored parts of those episodes that point to a single culprit with knowledge Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Eva and their spouses could not have known.

[Renall]

Well, the ep7 Tea Party was a "mystery-oriented solution" inasmuch as it presented a solution like you might see in a mystery. He was careful not to say the solution. That could mean many things (the truth wasn't as shown, the whole truth wasn't as shown, the truth can't be shown with just a mystery-oriented solution, etc.).

[TehChron]

I will be looking forward to Episode 8. Knowing Ryukishi, if he intends to make a statement with that chapter, it will be one worth remembering.

But the fact he goes out to say it's an epilogue definitely gives off a sense that it's going to shine a renewed light on the events of 1998. Which is an excellent way of wrapping up the story, I suppose.

He says Episode 6 ended the story of Beato and Battler? But what of the story of the people they're based upon? That will be worth seeing on it's own merits. Even if BATTLER was just a fictional construct within the story, him finding a happy ending is still a thing worth seeing.

So what if the shippers aren't truly satisfied? Beatrice never truly existed to begin with, she can only be seen with love, right? Maybe the person she was meant to represent really will be like that?

Maybe Yasu truly is Beato, rather than Shannon or Claire or Lion or whomever? Im sure we would all be satisfied with that, if that were how things went down.

Bah, reading that blog entry made me too introspective.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, the ep7 Tea Party was a "mystery-oriented solution" inasmuch as it presented a solution like you might see in a mystery. He was careful not to say the solution. That could mean many things (the truth wasn't as shown, the whole truth wasn't as shown, the truth can't be shown with just a mystery-oriented solution, etc.).

That, or as I said before, we may be getting a "The Burning Court" type of ending. Personally, I think that would fit Umineko perfectly.

[Renall]

Well, a valid solution from day one has been "there's a witch, but she's not the killer." Look carefully at the objective Battler has from ep2 on: Show the crime is possible by human means.

That isn't disproving a witch. That's simply exonerating one.